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http://vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/1/10520
You get the last word in, and then lock the thread. Very bad maners. tsk tsk.
When my newbie Itani char ran across a Serco in B8 named RelayeR and I attacked him, I suddenly found myself at a station in Sol2. Being serco KOS, and not having any experience with being in a KOS situation, I didn't last long. I was slightly annoyed, and even briefly berated RelayeR about it. He said something about having warned me and about me attacking an unarmed char, and I responded that I didn't recall any warning and probably would have attacked him even had I known he was unarmed. We both let this issue fade away, and I would have left it at that, until now. I'm not trying to villinize Relayer or any other guide. But the are some serious problems with this whole issue.
1. Guides are not identifiable as guides. I never knew that RelayeR was a guide until...
2. Guides seam to have guide powers on all their characters, meaning that they can't even intentionally handicap some of thier characters.
3. Guides are using known guide characters outside of guide functions.
4. There does not seam to be a clear and publicly listed set of rules/guidelines for the use of guide abilities.
5. The use of guide abilities is not beieng used very imaginativly. ( perhaps warping a more experienced player to a KOS situation would have been apropriate, but guides should be more adaptable to the situation. )
6. The player does not recieve notice that a guide (and which guide) has affected his character or used a guide ability in his/her sector.
Can I hear from the guides about how they would like these issues resolved?
You get the last word in, and then lock the thread. Very bad maners. tsk tsk.
When my newbie Itani char ran across a Serco in B8 named RelayeR and I attacked him, I suddenly found myself at a station in Sol2. Being serco KOS, and not having any experience with being in a KOS situation, I didn't last long. I was slightly annoyed, and even briefly berated RelayeR about it. He said something about having warned me and about me attacking an unarmed char, and I responded that I didn't recall any warning and probably would have attacked him even had I known he was unarmed. We both let this issue fade away, and I would have left it at that, until now. I'm not trying to villinize Relayer or any other guide. But the are some serious problems with this whole issue.
1. Guides are not identifiable as guides. I never knew that RelayeR was a guide until...
2. Guides seam to have guide powers on all their characters, meaning that they can't even intentionally handicap some of thier characters.
3. Guides are using known guide characters outside of guide functions.
4. There does not seam to be a clear and publicly listed set of rules/guidelines for the use of guide abilities.
5. The use of guide abilities is not beieng used very imaginativly. ( perhaps warping a more experienced player to a KOS situation would have been apropriate, but guides should be more adaptable to the situation. )
6. The player does not recieve notice that a guide (and which guide) has affected his character or used a guide ability in his/her sector.
Can I hear from the guides about how they would like these issues resolved?
Perhaps this is a bit over-reacting. Being once warped out after a probable warning is not such a big deal. If a newbie attacks a vet, there are fair chances that the latter will display superior powers, be them mortal or guide powers. In fact, you had a very original form of the instant death that this leeroy-ish behavior deserves; I recall being punished in a much more trivial way for my foolishness :D
TRS, ctishman locked the thread but Sherpa and RelayeR can apparently post into locked threads with their "Mod" status.
(and RelayeR is a "she"... at least, I think...)
But I like your 6 points. They seem to make sense.
(and RelayeR is a "she"... at least, I think...)
But I like your 6 points. They seem to make sense.
Despite all my best efforts, I have yet to be dev warped into a sun sector.
Broma-Ba Slick
Broma-Ba Slick
hmm... in an attempt to lighten the mood, does anyone know if sector 0 (not the player :O ) still exists?
the SMV greatlady devwarped me into Sol II. Little did they know that I survived and came back to bug it some more! Only to be devwarped back.. again...
no point.. I just thought that's entertaining.
no point.. I just thought that's entertaining.
Okay, I'll attempt to go point-by-point on this:
1. Guides are not identifiable as guides.
We've actually asked about getting some identifying tag or the like for our characters, but we're not quite sure of how to implement it. Perhaps a guild or something.
2. Guides seam to have guide powers on all their characters, meaning that they can't even intentionally handicap some of thier characters.
Correct. I've done my best to keep Ku Genin clean recently, but it's tough not to use the powers, and switching characters mid-mission just to handle someone who's cussing somebody else out is a pain.
3. Guides are using known guide characters outside of guide functions.
True. See above about switching characters mid-stride. When we were guide-ified, we had to choose how to handle it. Some of us chose to operate from our normal characters, while the rest created separate guide characters. Problem is, we run into the "bored patrolman issue": when you're in your guide character and waiting for something to happen, you tend to want to do other stuff, so you'll run a load of cargo, or cruise around a racetrack, or just hang in a corner of B8, spawning bots. We try to keep our 'dedicated guide' characters disposable, but it really is hard sometimes.
4. There does not seam to be a clear and publicly listed set of rules/guidelines for the use of guide abilities.
Bang. There's the nail, hit on the head. The guides have no code of conduct. We've tried a couple of times to draw one up, but it rarely goes beyond the glaringly obvious. Tell you what, and this goes for all of you: Why not work up a list of suggestions, and post them? Make them serious and well-thought out. We'll offer our suggestions in return. Sound good?
5. The use of guide abilities is not beieng used very imaginativly. ( perhaps warping a more experienced player to a KOS situation would have been apropriate, but guides should be more adaptable to the situation. )
I don't understand this point. What should we do? See above point.
6. The player does not recieve notice that a guide (and which guide) has affected his character or used a guide ability in his/her sector.
Yeah, some of the guide commands don't have user-level feedback. Again, see question 5. Which commands would you like more feedback on?
Oh yeah, and not even WE are allowed to go to Sector 0.
1. Guides are not identifiable as guides.
We've actually asked about getting some identifying tag or the like for our characters, but we're not quite sure of how to implement it. Perhaps a guild or something.
2. Guides seam to have guide powers on all their characters, meaning that they can't even intentionally handicap some of thier characters.
Correct. I've done my best to keep Ku Genin clean recently, but it's tough not to use the powers, and switching characters mid-mission just to handle someone who's cussing somebody else out is a pain.
3. Guides are using known guide characters outside of guide functions.
True. See above about switching characters mid-stride. When we were guide-ified, we had to choose how to handle it. Some of us chose to operate from our normal characters, while the rest created separate guide characters. Problem is, we run into the "bored patrolman issue": when you're in your guide character and waiting for something to happen, you tend to want to do other stuff, so you'll run a load of cargo, or cruise around a racetrack, or just hang in a corner of B8, spawning bots. We try to keep our 'dedicated guide' characters disposable, but it really is hard sometimes.
4. There does not seam to be a clear and publicly listed set of rules/guidelines for the use of guide abilities.
Bang. There's the nail, hit on the head. The guides have no code of conduct. We've tried a couple of times to draw one up, but it rarely goes beyond the glaringly obvious. Tell you what, and this goes for all of you: Why not work up a list of suggestions, and post them? Make them serious and well-thought out. We'll offer our suggestions in return. Sound good?
5. The use of guide abilities is not beieng used very imaginativly. ( perhaps warping a more experienced player to a KOS situation would have been apropriate, but guides should be more adaptable to the situation. )
I don't understand this point. What should we do? See above point.
6. The player does not recieve notice that a guide (and which guide) has affected his character or used a guide ability in his/her sector.
Yeah, some of the guide commands don't have user-level feedback. Again, see question 5. Which commands would you like more feedback on?
Oh yeah, and not even WE are allowed to go to Sector 0.
give the guides a god damn brake, so you lost a ship. you asked for it! just take it in stride, having guides be able to do stuff (like Rp'ing with there powers) is one of the best parts of the game.
mmmm... guide-guild.... [:g:]?
We have discussed about avoiding telling players the exact 'rules' mostly because if the players do know, there will be your handful who will go right up to the line and not pass it, keeping the line fuzzy means less people doing that.
I've had the exact same experience with several of VO's guide in the past few months and each time it's done the reasons are always different. I've notified the devs of each incident and as it is now that's all you really can do, and wait for some sort of review board via IRC. There really should be a list of rules that the guides must abide by and have them posted publicly so that all know what is against the rules. As it is right now, guides having a bad day can pretty much do whatever it is they want to you and get away with it unless you make a big stink about it. THAT MUST CHANGE.
Then post some suggestions, like I noted above!
What should be the limits of our power?
What should warrant a warning/mute/ban/teleport/kill?
//edited for niceness
What should be the limits of our power?
What should warrant a warning/mute/ban/teleport/kill?
//edited for niceness
As I said about an hour ago, public rules means that some people WILL stay as close to the border of the rules as possible as to annoy everyone but not warrant punishment. If those people are punished they will go on about how they were in the green and demand retribution and generally cause a mess of the message boards. Keeping things fun for everyone is a good thing.
I dunno, I've never had any trouble with guides abusing powers, but I've never been the type to try to toe the line. I think leaving rules unstated allows more freedom on the part of the players, and if a guide has beef with what a player does, they usually contact that player via private message to avoid public humiliation.
I think that for the most part, guides are very good at what they do, and my only problem with them is that I'm not one :P
I think that for the most part, guides are very good at what they do, and my only problem with them is that I'm not one :P
I agree with Ctishman on set of guidelines.
I disagree strongly with Suicidal Lemming. Here is why :
You are saying that having a set of rules will encourage people pushing the envelope of these rules. I think you got the wrong way around. Guides are there to HELP people, not to PUNISH them. AFAIK, Guides are NOT wardens. They are not there to enforce discipline. If Guides are there to enforce "discipline" (it seems like that sometimes), then I think there is a serious problem.
EDIT : I do see some minor cases of guides using the guide powers/status for "game things", like CTC. They are minor (like using their super-faction standings to run to stations when chased), but it is annoying. I sympathize with the "bored patrolman" syndrome, and I understand that Guides are not paid. But it is a responsibility they take upon by their own choice, and I think they should live up to that.
I disagree strongly with Suicidal Lemming. Here is why :
You are saying that having a set of rules will encourage people pushing the envelope of these rules. I think you got the wrong way around. Guides are there to HELP people, not to PUNISH them. AFAIK, Guides are NOT wardens. They are not there to enforce discipline. If Guides are there to enforce "discipline" (it seems like that sometimes), then I think there is a serious problem.
EDIT : I do see some minor cases of guides using the guide powers/status for "game things", like CTC. They are minor (like using their super-faction standings to run to stations when chased), but it is annoying. I sympathize with the "bored patrolman" syndrome, and I understand that Guides are not paid. But it is a responsibility they take upon by their own choice, and I think they should live up to that.
Yea, but guides aren't the only people around who can help other players. There are lots of players (myself included) who like to help newbies, but what we don't have the power to do is punish anyone if they swear excessively on 100, or be generally offensive.
We actually DO have a rather lengthy set of "guide"lines in a special area, and we do have internal discussions about how we respond to specific events. Some rules require a certain amount of discretion because there can be so many factors to consider when dealing with VO and the varied individuals who play here. If there is a concern about an individual's judgement, please contact the devs or me (as Sherpa). I have some limited ability to see guide actions, and of course the devs are omniscient.
The Guides are in the game to help, and that help can include dealing with players who are verbally abusive to others or are exploiting bugs to the detriment of others (and let us please not debate the definition of "bugs" here). In other words, the role of the guides is partially to enforce the few rules we have in-game. I'll repost those few rules tonight.
I think people need to step back and reassess what has been posted in these threads recently. The more serious accusations were proven to be incorrect suppositions, and the remainder (if true) really had no significant bearing on outcomes within the game. Guiding is generally a thankless job. Sometimes it's worse than that. I've politely reminded people (some who have posted here, I note) of our "no verbal abuse" rule, only to have them be quite rude back to me. I can certainly take it, but it does demonstrate that some should be doing a better job of monitoring their own behavior.
The Guides are in the game to help, and that help can include dealing with players who are verbally abusive to others or are exploiting bugs to the detriment of others (and let us please not debate the definition of "bugs" here). In other words, the role of the guides is partially to enforce the few rules we have in-game. I'll repost those few rules tonight.
I think people need to step back and reassess what has been posted in these threads recently. The more serious accusations were proven to be incorrect suppositions, and the remainder (if true) really had no significant bearing on outcomes within the game. Guiding is generally a thankless job. Sometimes it's worse than that. I've politely reminded people (some who have posted here, I note) of our "no verbal abuse" rule, only to have them be quite rude back to me. I can certainly take it, but it does demonstrate that some should be doing a better job of monitoring their own behavior.
Sometimes, Guides try to help out new players by warping them to cool events, so they can see some of the cool stuff that's going on.
Example: I was a 2/3/1/1/0 (or somethin') player, just beginning out, and SMV Great Lady devwarped me (as an Itani player) to Sol II, not knowing I was -695 Serco standing. I died, 'cos I was only flying a Hog (I think), and proceeded to yell at SMV GR on 100 for a few lines about not being a danged serco, or something along those lines.
My point?
It's easy to make mistakes, and it's easy to get bent out of shape over what may seem like abuse.
Example: I was a 2/3/1/1/0 (or somethin') player, just beginning out, and SMV Great Lady devwarped me (as an Itani player) to Sol II, not knowing I was -695 Serco standing. I died, 'cos I was only flying a Hog (I think), and proceeded to yell at SMV GR on 100 for a few lines about not being a danged serco, or something along those lines.
My point?
It's easy to make mistakes, and it's easy to get bent out of shape over what may seem like abuse.
Remember that guides are indeed humans, humans make mistakes, it's just how the mind operates. They suffer from bad days just like everyone else, they are not some type of memoryless person who will forget how people tend to act or how they respond.
Guides are there to enforce rules, if the rules didn't need enforcing then guides wouldn't have powers to do so. Enforcing rules isn't the only thing guides do, they help out new players, answer questions, make sure fun is being had, help out with RP events such as capitol ships and such. If the guides are not there to enforce the rules, then nobody is and everything will get out of hand.
I have seen it done in other places, people being very rude but not enough so to warrant intervention from those that could, and it completely ruined the atmosphere.
Guides are there to enforce rules, if the rules didn't need enforcing then guides wouldn't have powers to do so. Enforcing rules isn't the only thing guides do, they help out new players, answer questions, make sure fun is being had, help out with RP events such as capitol ships and such. If the guides are not there to enforce the rules, then nobody is and everything will get out of hand.
I have seen it done in other places, people being very rude but not enough so to warrant intervention from those that could, and it completely ruined the atmosphere.
"1. Guides are not identifiable as guides. I never knew that RelayeR was a guide until..."
Heh, ever hear of a plain clothes cop?
Heh, ever hear of a plain clothes cop?