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Lately I've seen players complaining about backrolling (there was one conversation about that today, but I'm not limiting my comments to just that, so the people involved in that particular incident, please don't take this personally), and I've been giving this some thought.
There is a fine line between so-called "Backrolling" and tactics that involve backing up, and I think that I should make a post to show the differences between the two.
Backrolling is a simple tactic where the player applies backwards thrust, then strafes and rolls continuously through the fight to spoof the auto-aim system of the opponent's guns. This is fairly successful in preventing getting hit, but good luck getting consistant hits in with your guns as well.
However, there are also players who will back up while strafing, and occasionally rotate, and this is not backrolling. Usually this tactic is employed by heavier fighters when paired against a light fighter. The heavy pilot knows that if they let the light get up close, they're dead, so they must keep the light fighter in front of them, and to do this, they usually have to constantly back up to maintain that distance. Alamar is a good pilot who employs this tactic quite effectively. He likes to stay at least 200m back because his primary weapons are railguns. He can't let opponents in close, because he'd never hit them, and would get torn up in the process.
I choose to differentiate this from simply backrolling because there is some thought involved with why you're backing up, and how far you want to back up. Usually players who use this tactic will back up to a distance, and not let the distance grow too far beyond that because then hits will decrease as well. Backrollers usually don't think of these things. Once backrolling, the player will tend to keep backrolling, even if ranges have grown beyond where one can realistically hope to hit someone.
That is the main difference, I believe, that backrolling is completely reflexive, and very little thought is put into it, whereas a distance maintaining tactic is more carefully planned and executed.
Don't forget that when you're fighting someone they want to avoid getting hit as much as possible, while dealing as much damage as possible, so if you're not hitting him while he's pounding you back, that does not mean he's a backroller. That means that he's executing his tactics against you far more effectively than you are against him. That should be a clue right there, unless you're sleeping or something, backrollers should not be able to hit you at all.
There is a fine line between so-called "Backrolling" and tactics that involve backing up, and I think that I should make a post to show the differences between the two.
Backrolling is a simple tactic where the player applies backwards thrust, then strafes and rolls continuously through the fight to spoof the auto-aim system of the opponent's guns. This is fairly successful in preventing getting hit, but good luck getting consistant hits in with your guns as well.
However, there are also players who will back up while strafing, and occasionally rotate, and this is not backrolling. Usually this tactic is employed by heavier fighters when paired against a light fighter. The heavy pilot knows that if they let the light get up close, they're dead, so they must keep the light fighter in front of them, and to do this, they usually have to constantly back up to maintain that distance. Alamar is a good pilot who employs this tactic quite effectively. He likes to stay at least 200m back because his primary weapons are railguns. He can't let opponents in close, because he'd never hit them, and would get torn up in the process.
I choose to differentiate this from simply backrolling because there is some thought involved with why you're backing up, and how far you want to back up. Usually players who use this tactic will back up to a distance, and not let the distance grow too far beyond that because then hits will decrease as well. Backrollers usually don't think of these things. Once backrolling, the player will tend to keep backrolling, even if ranges have grown beyond where one can realistically hope to hit someone.
That is the main difference, I believe, that backrolling is completely reflexive, and very little thought is put into it, whereas a distance maintaining tactic is more carefully planned and executed.
Don't forget that when you're fighting someone they want to avoid getting hit as much as possible, while dealing as much damage as possible, so if you're not hitting him while he's pounding you back, that does not mean he's a backroller. That means that he's executing his tactics against you far more effectively than you are against him. That should be a clue right there, unless you're sleeping or something, backrollers should not be able to hit you at all.
I agree with the above, but would like to add:
Let us keep this in perspective. Vendetta is evolving into a RPG. We need to abandon the FPS mentality and get with the program. I can see being a little annoyed by actual backrolling if you have a formal duel going, but otherwise just let it go.
Also, I have observed a few duels recently where the person who was complaining the loudest about backrolling was actually the worst offender. I think sometimes people think that because they don't hit reverse thrust, they can't go backward. All it takes is to thrust in a direction with FA off and then to orient the nose in the opposite direction, and viola you are going backwards.
Let us keep this in perspective. Vendetta is evolving into a RPG. We need to abandon the FPS mentality and get with the program. I can see being a little annoyed by actual backrolling if you have a formal duel going, but otherwise just let it go.
Also, I have observed a few duels recently where the person who was complaining the loudest about backrolling was actually the worst offender. I think sometimes people think that because they don't hit reverse thrust, they can't go backward. All it takes is to thrust in a direction with FA off and then to orient the nose in the opposite direction, and viola you are going backwards.
FA can also be misleading: sometimes player A complains about player B going backwards and, when player B replies he never hit the back key, A puts the ultimate argument "I had FA on and was at full speed all the time chasing you". Nice enough, especially on public channels, but the reality is that player B was continuously strafing sideways so player A was in fact like a cat running after its own tail (which he could have seen by reducing speed to 0).
Hats off to CP for his very good post.
Hats off to CP for his very good post.
Yes, agree with both CP and FM.
Backrolling is annoying when it legitamately occurs (someone runs up, fires, backrolls off, nothing you can do), but it's time to start losing the individual egos and start playing the game. For a long time, fighting prowess was the only character you had. Backrolling, at least in the relatively rocket-less new universe, was simply not playing the game.
While fighting still largely is all we have, you can see that we're poised to move away from that. It's time for people to stop being so concerned with the outcomes of individual fights and 1v1 reputation, and move into team based conflicts centering around the hive and cap ships.
I know we need more content before that's feasible, but after a year and a half here, I'm looking forward to when the massive ego is no longer an integral part of VO.
Backrolling is annoying when it legitamately occurs (someone runs up, fires, backrolls off, nothing you can do), but it's time to start losing the individual egos and start playing the game. For a long time, fighting prowess was the only character you had. Backrolling, at least in the relatively rocket-less new universe, was simply not playing the game.
While fighting still largely is all we have, you can see that we're poised to move away from that. It's time for people to stop being so concerned with the outcomes of individual fights and 1v1 reputation, and move into team based conflicts centering around the hive and cap ships.
I know we need more content before that's feasible, but after a year and a half here, I'm looking forward to when the massive ego is no longer an integral part of VO.
With the newer, faster rockets, a lot of people have figured out that keeping their distance is now a viable strategy. You can sit back farther than usual and still have your rockets hit while it's a lot harder to hit at the distance with energy. Not impossible, but harder. So now it's up to us who like close-in fighting to make the new move. To figure out how to defeat the tactics the opponent uses to keep his distance, and move in past his comfort zone.
This reminds me of an old debate (of which I was a part) about how unfair the Vulture was. Being so slim, a player could virtually avoid all incoming fire (rails were exceptionally harder to use against one) by the slightest dodges. It took rocket-ramming the Vulture to kill it. Many people (I, included, if my memory serves) complained about this to no avail. However, the futility of this 1 vs 1 thinking was exposed when we organized team battles. The vulture players were eaten alive by the valk and prom team. The Vulture has a rather wide profile when viewed from above or below. That made it a big target for AGTs and flares.
In the same way, a "backroller" can effectively fend off an attacker by reversing his thrust or turning in free fly mode, but at that point he can only defend, not attack. As far as attacking someone, then back-rolling, that's legitimate. It's not cheating and it's not hacking or exploiting. I would conjecture that those who think of it as "illegitimate" are instead judging the tactic based on their idea of "honorable" combat. Many paragraphs have been wasted on what's honorable combat, but let's look at it a different way:
Getting into the RP realm of things, you seek to stay alive by any means necessary. What is legitimate is what keeps you alive, what is illegitimate is what gets you killed. Within this definition, I am not
condoning either cheating, hacking, or exploiting. We assume the game works as intended.
As far as backing away is concerned, it is a very good thing, if your enemy plays along. It works best on an enemy intent on killing you, not on a victim of an ambush. By backrolling, you can subtly vary your speed to launch flares or come in close for a surprise tach/gauss attack. You can slowly wear your opponent down. If he gives up and leaves, you accomplished your goal (staying alive). If he continues, throw more stuff at him. He will either die or give up out of sheer boredom.
As far as attacking an enemy and then backing up: This is just baiting him. You offend him by attacking him and possibly taunting him, then back up and give him the chance to come after you.
A bit of Sun Tzu here: "There are five traits that are dangerous in a commander: If he has a reckless disregard for life, he can be killed; if he is determined to live at all costs, he can be captured; if he has a volatile temper, he can be provoked; if he is a man of uncompromising honor, he is open to insult; if he loves his people, he can be easily troubled and upset. These five traits are generally faults in a commander."
#1 is irrelevant, and in VO, #2 is conversely true. If you are determined to live at all costs, you will quit a fight to repair. You get called names, but you survive. We should focus on #3 and #4, specifically. Insulting another player usually provokes him to rash actions, which usually lead to mistakes you can exploit and kill him with. If he has that "honor" thing going, he'll come after you for revenge, giving you a few more PKs.
In VO, however, be careful not to flame someone in order to provoke them. We have a few rules and they're lenient. However, without flaming them, it is perfectly "legitimate" to provoke someone by attacking them or insulting them. At that point, they play right into your hands.
So, without breaking rules (hacking, cheating, exploiting, flaming), any tactic you want to employ successfully is "legitimate." You should be concerned with whether you live or die. Granted, you're free to value "honor" or "fair fights" more than that, but then you will relegate living under those. If you want to live, listen up and employ that backroll when the situation calls for it.
~ camps
In the same way, a "backroller" can effectively fend off an attacker by reversing his thrust or turning in free fly mode, but at that point he can only defend, not attack. As far as attacking someone, then back-rolling, that's legitimate. It's not cheating and it's not hacking or exploiting. I would conjecture that those who think of it as "illegitimate" are instead judging the tactic based on their idea of "honorable" combat. Many paragraphs have been wasted on what's honorable combat, but let's look at it a different way:
Getting into the RP realm of things, you seek to stay alive by any means necessary. What is legitimate is what keeps you alive, what is illegitimate is what gets you killed. Within this definition, I am not
condoning either cheating, hacking, or exploiting. We assume the game works as intended.
As far as backing away is concerned, it is a very good thing, if your enemy plays along. It works best on an enemy intent on killing you, not on a victim of an ambush. By backrolling, you can subtly vary your speed to launch flares or come in close for a surprise tach/gauss attack. You can slowly wear your opponent down. If he gives up and leaves, you accomplished your goal (staying alive). If he continues, throw more stuff at him. He will either die or give up out of sheer boredom.
As far as attacking an enemy and then backing up: This is just baiting him. You offend him by attacking him and possibly taunting him, then back up and give him the chance to come after you.
A bit of Sun Tzu here: "There are five traits that are dangerous in a commander: If he has a reckless disregard for life, he can be killed; if he is determined to live at all costs, he can be captured; if he has a volatile temper, he can be provoked; if he is a man of uncompromising honor, he is open to insult; if he loves his people, he can be easily troubled and upset. These five traits are generally faults in a commander."
#1 is irrelevant, and in VO, #2 is conversely true. If you are determined to live at all costs, you will quit a fight to repair. You get called names, but you survive. We should focus on #3 and #4, specifically. Insulting another player usually provokes him to rash actions, which usually lead to mistakes you can exploit and kill him with. If he has that "honor" thing going, he'll come after you for revenge, giving you a few more PKs.
In VO, however, be careful not to flame someone in order to provoke them. We have a few rules and they're lenient. However, without flaming them, it is perfectly "legitimate" to provoke someone by attacking them or insulting them. At that point, they play right into your hands.
So, without breaking rules (hacking, cheating, exploiting, flaming), any tactic you want to employ successfully is "legitimate." You should be concerned with whether you live or die. Granted, you're free to value "honor" or "fair fights" more than that, but then you will relegate living under those. If you want to live, listen up and employ that backroll when the situation calls for it.
~ camps
Hmmm. No comment on tactics, but someone (everyone) said they'd like to see the game move away from FPS to RPG.
I'm violently against this. Reasoning:
This is a multiplayer game. It makes sense that in a multiplayer game, people interact with each other, because, really, otherwise, why make it a multiplayer game? Right now we have two ways of interacting with other players: chat and FPS. You want to get rid of the FPS part.
You know, when I first started playing, someone (rather unjustly, in my opinion) called Vendetta the "world's prettiest chat room." I personally would hate for that statement to become true, but sadly, it seems I'm among the minority here.
I'm violently against this. Reasoning:
This is a multiplayer game. It makes sense that in a multiplayer game, people interact with each other, because, really, otherwise, why make it a multiplayer game? Right now we have two ways of interacting with other players: chat and FPS. You want to get rid of the FPS part.
You know, when I first started playing, someone (rather unjustly, in my opinion) called Vendetta the "world's prettiest chat room." I personally would hate for that statement to become true, but sadly, it seems I'm among the minority here.
the thing about it is, backrolling is a tactic, a strategy, whatever. It is a very legitimate one, about as much so as all the others i'd say. Thing is, if you dont like fighting someone who employs a certain tactic, strategy, whatever, dont! NO ONE IS FORCING YOU!! If enough people "boycott" backrollers because they dont like the way they fight, the people will stop.
Its kinda like spam email, dont buy the stuff and eventually the people go out of business.
Its kinda like spam email, dont buy the stuff and eventually the people go out of business.
I dont like the tactic you use to beat me, so it's cheap.
(Sound like a certian Neut player we all remember?)
(Sound like a certian Neut player we all remember?)
"If enough people "boycott" backrollers because they dont like the way they fight, the people will stop. "
We use it to survive. Boycott us, please, then, and don't attack. =p
We use it to survive. Boycott us, please, then, and don't attack. =p
Genka, I think they merely meant that more elements for player interaction should be added which would reduce the FPS element of the game. If this is so then I support this; however, if not, then I am with you.
Just don't chase backrollers. If they want to fight they will come to you. Besides, they're not going to be able to hit you if what they're doing is really backrolling. If you're still getting hit by someone you think is backrolling, then most likely they're not backrolling or you're standing still. Either that or just turn auto aim off and practice your sniping skills.
If people start backrolling to the point where the fight is taking an absurdly long time, then turn around and turbo away. That's all there is to it. No-one's forcing you to continue the fight.
I find that, when fighting with FA off, and using strafe/roll combos, you usually end up going backwards. Before you know it, you are going backwards at 40 m/s or so, and you need to keep on top of things. That's why I now use the FA on/off toggle, keeps me honest and "in the fight".
fprefect: If there's a formal duel, however, you have to continue the fight.
fprefect: If there's a formal duel, however, you have to continue the fight.
Pixelcat: Yes, I was accounting for the continued evolution of VO.
Good posts everyone, very impressive.
Good posts everyone, very impressive.
Yeah, I consider back-rolling a legitimate tactic, specially against the most impatient would-be pirates. It also works when an over-eager newb starts shooting at you and you can't shoot back or incur the penalty for doing so.
Still, I must admit my combat repertoire consists of back-rolling, or hitting turbo and running away. It won't win me any combats, but it can save my ship and my cargo, which is what I usually care about.
Still, I must admit my combat repertoire consists of back-rolling, or hitting turbo and running away. It won't win me any combats, but it can save my ship and my cargo, which is what I usually care about.
I play with FA off, but I also usually mash my finger to the W key...
Backrolling IS a legitimate tactic, but it's also one that doesn't work. A light pilot can easily send the backroller into a spin just by turboing into their face, and take advantage of the confusion to deal a huge amount of damage with energy weapons (or just fire a well placed rocket or three), while a heavy pilot can just sit and wait for the enemy to come back or turbo-sling rockets.
The problem is, though, this has the tendency to draw out a fight to be much longer than it would otherwise have been, which is the only real reason to complain about it. It makes a fight "boring."
-:sigma.SB
Backrolling IS a legitimate tactic, but it's also one that doesn't work. A light pilot can easily send the backroller into a spin just by turboing into their face, and take advantage of the confusion to deal a huge amount of damage with energy weapons (or just fire a well placed rocket or three), while a heavy pilot can just sit and wait for the enemy to come back or turbo-sling rockets.
The problem is, though, this has the tendency to draw out a fight to be much longer than it would otherwise have been, which is the only real reason to complain about it. It makes a fight "boring."
-:sigma.SB
Backrollers can be beaten if you're aggressive enough. I fly with FA off and use axial turning combined with various strafe combinations to get on my opponent's side, where their roll is not quite what they want it to be relative to me. Once I get get in close enough, I can sneak a few shots in. Generally speaking, backrollers aren't too hot at close range combat, and they're easy targets once you're in close enough. Those that are skilled and continue to backroll will hit you usually, and it'll be a close fight if you keep going after them, if this is the case, I choose to stop where I am and see if my opponent will pursue.
Backrolling makes fights boring, or it can do, it depends on which two pilots are fighting, and what ships/weapons they are using.
Backrolling in an IBG/Rev C/Prom makes no sense whatsoever to me, but thats just my opinion, and although I feel backrolling in ships that are considered *the best of there clasees* is a pure waste of both my time, and your time, I usually will stay till the end of the fight, maybe even back away myself, and see what happens, but after motion sickness sets in, i often flip the bird, and fly the other direction (they can call me a runner, im calling them a backroller at this point =p) I usually dont though...
...But then people have called me lame in the past for my tactics, I dont roll constantly, and my finger is usually jamming the accel button/key down, recently i have found a turning autoaim off and just spraying and praying works well, especially if your good at getting *lucky* shots, like some of us.
Use it, dont use it, but if someone calls you a name for it, dont take it to heart, go find someone else to shoot at.
[Edit]
When I refer to backrolling, I mean constantly. I often do very small back rolls to avoid a rocket, or AGT fire, ect, usually followed up my me trying to get close enough again to shoot you back - backing away while rolling, and backrolling are two different things.
Backrolling in an IBG/Rev C/Prom makes no sense whatsoever to me, but thats just my opinion, and although I feel backrolling in ships that are considered *the best of there clasees* is a pure waste of both my time, and your time, I usually will stay till the end of the fight, maybe even back away myself, and see what happens, but after motion sickness sets in, i often flip the bird, and fly the other direction (they can call me a runner, im calling them a backroller at this point =p) I usually dont though...
...But then people have called me lame in the past for my tactics, I dont roll constantly, and my finger is usually jamming the accel button/key down, recently i have found a turning autoaim off and just spraying and praying works well, especially if your good at getting *lucky* shots, like some of us.
Use it, dont use it, but if someone calls you a name for it, dont take it to heart, go find someone else to shoot at.
[Edit]
When I refer to backrolling, I mean constantly. I often do very small back rolls to avoid a rocket, or AGT fire, ect, usually followed up my me trying to get close enough again to shoot you back - backing away while rolling, and backrolling are two different things.
I can't remember having issues fighting a "backroller" I jus turbo to him whil rolling and most of his shoots can't touch me...
I usually use FA on to stay close to them and FA off when things are getting hot for me, just take a breath then FA on again and make circles around my opponent...
my big issue still rocket spammers...(and proms of course)
but i think i'll go on strike on those and just avoid the fight...
but backrollers, yeah that's fun (for the 5 first minutes) after that its a bit annoying but i won't complain if my ennemy found that his tactic is great so ok i don't have to jugde it, but just try to take him down to prove him its not the best way to fight.
I usually use FA on to stay close to them and FA off when things are getting hot for me, just take a breath then FA on again and make circles around my opponent...
my big issue still rocket spammers...(and proms of course)
but i think i'll go on strike on those and just avoid the fight...
but backrollers, yeah that's fun (for the 5 first minutes) after that its a bit annoying but i won't complain if my ennemy found that his tactic is great so ok i don't have to jugde it, but just try to take him down to prove him its not the best way to fight.