well personly i never mind back rolling if done in prortion and even used a lot but if used constaintly thoughout the fight it just tends to make the fight a little boring and in a game i tend to try to keep things fun.
but that said if your the one attacking ,in my view, people of coures have the right to do whatever they like(as they do in all places) since they didn't ask for the fight and there isent any real resion for them to acomidate you. but i allways think that in a duel or a fight that has been entered into willingly there is a responceablity to keep the fight fun theres more than one person in the fight so it's only fair it is fun for both.
as allways though it's just my opinion and what i follow.

Some backrollers just don't realize what they're doing sometimes, though. I was fighting a backroller, so I stopped my fighter and just strafed a bit so I wouldn't get hit, and watched this guy spin all the way to 2500m away from me shooting the whole time. I don't think he ever came back.

I guess a difference should be made here between backrolling as a tactic and backrolling as your only tactic. If you attack someone, backroll, and expect someone to follow you, you're an idiot. It is a good tactic, but because it's defensive, it can't be the only one you use in the process of killing someone.

Backrolling should be used in heavy ships to avoid lighter ones and in any ship for a defensive fight. In heavy ships, it's very hard to fool a faster ship's aimbot, so moving in as many directions as possible coupled with a circular roll is one of the best ways to avoid incoming fire. If you're in a fight you'd rather not be in, backing away (a universal sign of "leave me alone") is the best way to disentangle yourself.

For those who have trouble in a backroll with hitting people: Turn off autoaim if they're dodging as well--"spray and pray" (does not apply to rockets, which will have an absolute speed near 0).

For those who claim to be able to get close to backrollers by turboing into their face: Any smart backroller will have the autoaim toggle set to a key and will nail you the moment you start turboing.

Try a fall back.

Really only works with valks cents or other maneuverable ships.

Look up and press the vertical strafe key. Truely only affective against bots but some people don't expect it.

Yeah, just don't follow them.

or do so slowly, at 20 m/s or so. They'll lose ground, try to get closer again, and then you hit the accelerator.

also, from Shape (paraphrased):

Just sidestrafe in physics mode against them, when they try to close the distance a bit, switch into flight assist mode, you suddenly change direction and can get very close to them.

i think the biggest problem with backroling isn't the backrolers, it's the whiny pilets.

simply put there are players out there who acuse you of using every "dishonerable" tactic they can even remotely apply to you.

once i was attacking a newcomer in a melee with my primary weapon, which hapened to be a Gemini launcer. now, i was about 600-800m way because i had been a spectator. the missiles were more of a "leve them alone i want to see how this tuns out" than an attack i expected to land, but i aimed them as well as i could hoping they would hit. After the battle the attacker accused me of being a spamer because i fired missiles while he was engaging another ship.

now, i just chuckled to myself dismissed him as a whiner, and went on about my buisness. But i think backrolers suffer the same sort of abuse. just because you are backroling doesn't mean you are dishonerable. if you oponent is agressive and wants to close the distance eventualy you will be flying bakwards, and most people role and strafe a lot in combat (you'd be stupid not to).

Also, some people simply don't know any better.

In EVN if you use any tactic other than their equivalent of backroling you cut your survival chances in about half. I sugest that if you don't like backrolers, you should offer to teach them "honerable combat". i think most players will agree, especialy if you kill them then offer.

Other than that, i definately agree that if you start a fight, you have no right to complain about your oponent's tactics, even if it is a duel. Historicaly the person who was chalenged to a duel chose the terms of the duel.

Okay, I tried to keep my mouth shut about this thread, and just let it fall to obscurity, but even though I'm late in replying, I couldn't let it slide by.

It's all fine and dandy to let the backrollers leave a fight, and I know I've let quite a few backrollers out of radar range just due to sheer boredom, but I still think it's a serious issue in PvP.

If you attack someone and they backroll away, fine i'll accept that they're obviously not skilled enough to actually fight.
If someone attacks you, and then backrolls away when you retaliate, okay, it's less honourable (it's a complete waste of time), but sure they got in over their heads and I can let them leave the fight.

The main problem is groups of fighters.
Nobody has brought this up.

I don't have a huge problem with 1 backroller. the tactic isn't THAT good... Sure it takes longer to kill them but I still win in the end.
The problem lies with multiple attackers. I've been in fights where 2 opponents decide they want to take me on at once, the problem is, that which ever opponent I decide to engage backrolls away while the other tries to shoot me up.

If that isn't a dishonourable tactic I don't now what is.

I've always felt barrel rolling in general was dishonourable, and since the latest changes to the ships/weapons I've tested the issue with some players.
We all decided that (due to the increase in ship speed) barrel rolling had become an easy way out. I was able to dodge AGT fire at 60m in an IBG just by barrel rolling.

You can all preach to me that "turning off autoaim" will subdue the barrel rollers, but the fact remains that... I shouldn't have too. Why should I have to practice that much to kill someone who's holding down 2 keys?
I feel this point is overlooked so I'll say it again... "2 keys!!!"
I am constantly changing strafing directions in order to dodge fire, but I'm increasingly thinking "Why bother? I could just hold down A and E and be done with it." Vendetta is supposed to be a skill based game, and the notion that barrel rolling is a justifiable tactic is insane.

I feel very strongly that something needs to be done, but I don't know what that something is. I wish I did, I really do, because I can't even have 1 fight anymore without getting upset over barrel rolling... forward or backwards.

Fighting large groups of people is often easier than fighting one on one. You know why? Backroll! Try it! If your ganged up upon by multiple pilots... backroll until you are in a position to attack that suits you! Then flick on FA and charge, then backroll! If you get bored, leave! You've been ganked, and there is no honour lost running from a fight where you are outnumbered AND having to fight backrollers!

IMO every tactic including missile spamming is a good thing. I personally love fighting backrollers and missile spammers. It is excellent real world experience, which includes the most important xp of all: patience. These tactics are excuciatingly easy to fight against, providing you are not eager. If you have patience, you will win.

Embrace all opportunities. Time will show that all tactics have a purpose, and those who do not know how to fight them will pay for this with their lives.

Snax has a good point, here. Back in beta, I could be facing four or five valks at once, but by backrolling, I could put them all in front of me, and then by switching directions, I could take out several by spamming triflares.

As far as 2v1 combat--having one guy backroll to draw the prey in and then the other charge and finish him off... well, this is just a simple trap tactic! Nothing "dishonorable" about it.

Cam, this is not a simple skill-based game. If it were, we'd go back to 2.4 where the universe reset every 15 minutes, you all spawn in one of three types of ships, and weapons are picked up in crates. But no, we have levels. So, even though you might be a better pilot, someone else might have better technology and zap you. Same way with tactics--if you are going to shun a tactic because it doesn't fit your style or notion of honor, expect to get beaten. The way things should be, according to your notion of perceived reality, is irrelevant--it's the way things are that counts.

So, if someone attacks you, then backs off and backrolls, and you're foolish enough to go after them for revenge, well then, they provoked you into doing something stupid and dying for it. In combat, everything is purely practical. It either gets you killed or helps you kill the other guy. Think in those terms.

This thread is so long I skipped the last few post.

Any one in a IBG, Rev C, Serco or Corvus Vult, has no good reason to complain about backrolling or any other tactic used (unless the backroller is also flying one of these). And frankly, if your not flying one of those, you have no excuse for chasing a backroller, so shutup.

All the people complaining about backrollers, are the ones in big ships that want to close in fast and make a quick kill. Learn to fly a fast fighter. I'm tired of hearing about how your targets won't line up and play dead for you.

Haiku

beautiful circle
fades into infinity
the stars flicker

I was hoping this thread would die in obscurity too. There was no activity on it for the entire weekend.

I can understand an argument about honor in duels, but there is no honor in war.

I guess my old school belief that the primary reason for a fight is to have fun just doesn't apply anymore.

It's a shame really, I used to have a great time fighting.

what can be said allready has realiy so why don't we just let it go..(i thought we were doing quite well with keeping it orderly) lets not start just another flame war.

I *still* have a great time fighting. If a tactic is cheap, I just retool and come back equipped to counter it for the next round. If I have something snide to say about it, I just say it to the monitor. It never makes it into the chat. Same thing if I get completely owned by "honorable" means. Most defeats come down to my ship choice and mindset at the time. I can adapt to nearly anything once I've had a chance to study it (and die) a few times. I think it boils down to:

1) An awareness that in-game performance has no impact on me as a real person. My ego isn't tied to Vendetta.
2) Having enough credits to cover the loss of many ships.

I strongly disagree with FM's desired direction for the game. I dont think it should evolve into a strict RPG.

Yeah, lets throw away the last remenants of the skill-based combat system, and make it favorable for the people that play 40-odd hours a week, and have the lack of brain cells to bot..and bot...and..trade..and trade some more. Let's just get rid of everything that made Vendetta stand out from the pack, and make it into just another stupid space MMO. Lets do that...

:(

I agree.... I loved it when Vendetta was based largely on skill. Sure, you had to trade to get money, but anyone with enough money could get their hands on any equipment--even in the black market sectors. It makes no sense that I, with several million credits, can't buy certain vessels in Corvus because my "licenses" aren't qualified enough (since when do pirates pay attention to that? they just want to see the greenbacks). These are the same licenses that the "official" governments (UIT, Serco, Itani) respect. That's really something--law-abiding pirates!

This also reaaaally discourages the use of more than one char, which hurts role-playing. I used to have a red char that was very aggressive and blood-thirsty, a UIT char with a high sense of justice and retribution, and a fiercely loyal and defensive Itani char (SF1, WotS, and DS4, respectively). Now, I would have to put hundreds of hours of work into each char to ensure they're competent at what they do. Many times, the licenses I need are the same, but my behavior would be altered based on the char.

Perhaps this should be a suggestion, but I doubt the devs would listen. They've decided to require treadmilling (as someone aptly described it: mining to make weapons to kill monsters to make money to mine more to make bigger weapons to killer bigger enemies to...), so the greatest skill required is patience. A naturally good pilot can't hope to "mess it up" with people in his skill level until he puts in hundreds of boring hours botting.

I, for one, am dissatisfied with what Vendetta has become. I left when treadmilling became prevalent. I can only kill so many bots before the process turns into monotony. For those of us who want the PVP combat fix, we should be able to have it regardless of our levels, as long as we have the money, which is a reasonable requirement. Corvus, and fringe stations like it, should offer its equipment to all players with either 1) high enough Corvus standing or 2) anyone with enough money to pay the bribes or blackmarket prices....

me sees his post has gone waaay off-topic.

So, um, yeah--backrolling has to do with skill and sucking your enemy in to finish him off. Or something like that.

Say what? Corvus stations offer all standard ships & equipment at significantly reduced license requirements, usually around 1/2 what nation stations require.

As far as "desired directions for the game," my, your, and even FM's stated opinions really don't matter. The devs will take the game in the direction they want to. We can make suggestions & state our opinions, and the devs do listen, but all in all their long term plan for the game is what's going to happen, and some of us will like it more than others of us.

I agree with SirCamps, I hate the treadmill, why would I want better weapons to get better weapons?

Give us skillful devices as rewards for REAL accomplishments.

Seems to me that the botting treadmill is just one long tutorial.

"Bring us the Eye of Atlantis!"