If you want trade ships to remain trade ships and not be combat capable the easiest way is to make their ports equipment or mining based and not weapons. Give it the single small weapons port, and one large mining or equipment port and be done with it. Everything else is just a temperary fix.

/me shoots johnhawl218 multiple times.

You're missing the point [expletives deleted]. Taking away the Atlas's weapons is a temporary fix. Yea, it won't be able to out shoot a warthog, but the Warthog will still be a floating target. That means you don't have one worthless ship, you have two. But upping lowering the Atlas slightly and raising the Warthog more than just slightly means that you have two useful-without-being-too-useful ships.

besides, a "normal" trade ship should have the possibilty to drop a mine or fire a weapon or two if need be. they shouldn't be dogfighters, but they should be able to defend themselves in some fashion apart from hitting the boost button.

just make mines equipable in an equipment port or a weapons port and you have your ability. But it does not allow for an AGT or other large port weapons.

The warthog is not a dog fighter either it's an assault ship, heavy but armored. It needs protection it's NOT the protection. The Warthog is fine as it is, as is the Atlas.

kill its spin torque. You cant fight very well if you cant aim, look at the hornet.

john, since when has the warthog been an "assault" ship? It's neither heavy, nor armored. And it is supposed to be the protection. Don't confuse it's current crappiness with the idea that it's a heavy fighter.

At 6000kg, it comes nowhere near the weight of the "real" heavies like the Centaur, the Ragnarok, and the Prometheus, but rather is closer to that of the Vulture. The Atlas has 10000-ish kg, for comparison, making it a much heavier ship. The Warthog also only has 9600 armor at its maximum. That's only 1000 more than the Vulture, and is equal to the Valkyrie. It's still less than the 10000 of the least armored Hornet, and nowhere near the 18000 of the Prometheus.

With those stats, it clearly cannot "hang with the heavies," nor can it dance with the lights, because its thrust and torque are low enough that any worthwhile heavy weapon makes the thing handle like a rock. The Mega Positron is the only L-port weapon light enough to allow the Warthog to retain its maneuverability, but the Mega Posi is a mediocre weapon at best. The only way to keep the Warthog in the fight, as it were, is to only stick an S-port gun on, and forget the L-port, but then you've essentially reduced the Warthog to a slower, more vulnerable Centurion.

The Warthog is a medium fighter. It should not be fast enough to keep up with the lights, nor should it be armed and armored enough to keep up with the heavies, but it should be fast enough to outmaneuver the heavies, and it should be armed and armored enough to keep the lights at bay. But as it is, it's too slow to outmaneuver the heavies, and it's not armed nor armored enough to keep lights at bay. So really, what you have is a complete set of really worthless ships that are outclassed by the Atlas.

The Atlas has the same weapon ports as the Warthog, and despite its greater mass, the greater thrust means that it is not nearly as affected by heavy weapons as the Warthog. So an Atlas with an AGT and flechette will easily outmaneuver a Warthog with an AGT and a flechette. The Atlas may have lighter armor, but it's a lot easier to avoid getting hit. The situation currently is that the Warthog is really crappy in battle, but the Atlas is both good in combat, and has a lot of space for cargo runs.

So the solution lies not with either the Atlas or the Warthog, but rather a combination of the two. Reducing the spin torque on the Atlas will only serve to make the Atlas a crappy combat ship, and the Warthog will remain a crappy combat ship. This means that I return to flying the Prometheus, and no one fights me anymore. The Warthog needs to be boosted, and the Atlas needs to be reduced, so they effectively switch positions, making the Warthog good for combat, and the Atlas good for cargo runs.

CP as you said the warthog is not a good light fighter nor does it equal a heavy ship which is WHY I used the term assault. I did not say Heavy Assault, which is what you must think I ment. Your right on the money as far as your description though. And described exactly what I ment by the term assault, plus I'm taking the term that Celkan gave the vessel in the wiki "Assault/Attack" ship [ http://www.vo-gate.com/mediawiki/index.php/Ships:Data#Attack.2FAssault_Craft ].

Why must a trade ship have bad spin torque?? Why can't a trade ship be fast, nimble and respond well? It's how players are using the ships that makes there "so-called" flaws apparent. If the ports were altered and the way in which ships in general were handled there would not be this type of problem. Right now ALL the ships, for the most part, are becoming vanilla. There is no one ship that takes a special nitch. Everyone keep griping and they keep grinding the corners off the ships till they are all relatively the same. Why must every ship be a good dueling ship? Why do all the heavies need to stand up to the lights and same for the lights agains the heavies. They shouldn't. It all boils back down to how you play, and everyone is a solo artist here. I still don't see real group tactics in game. Try actually getting a strike force together, utilize the different aspects of each ship, get a medic to fly with you and see how bad a ship really needs to be tweaked. Personally, all the ships were fine, are fine and will be fine if left alone. The players just need to adapt, learn, and move forward.

Every ship doesn't have to be a good dueling ship.

But why on earth would a company produce a ship for fighting when it is beaten out by every other ship on the market.

The point that is being made is that the role that the hog is supposed to fill, is being filled by trader ships.

I fly the hog..
*sniffle sniffle*

it's definitely -close- to being nice and usable ya know... another one of those multi-purpose, not very good but not dastardly horrible ships...

I cant agree on the valk suggestions. Even by increasing thrust the third port is still more of a liability than a help. Thrust as well as mass should be increased as spellcast suggested, this makes it able to handle weight better. Also, losing the armor on an already fat target is not a good idea. I still see valks getting torn apart by cents which should not happen.

@Shape
Why does half the car companies make there cars when they are not the top seller, because there is always someone that will buy it. Diversity is the spice of life, and we STILL don't have enough of it in VO. All ships should be equal to it's self, stronger then some, weaker then others. Right now, that's exactly how the Hog is. With the right pilot the I've see the wart take out ships in its current state under some bad odds. Practice more. Try a different weapons config. LESS NERFING.

If a trade ship is being used more as an attack ship that says something about the way the game mechanics are set up, ie the port design, and how weapons and equipment are handled. Changing that would change how each ship is viewed. If weapons were not equipable, or only certain type then they would not be used. This is not a new suggestion, just one that is relatively easy and better for the game overall.

@Ghost
There is no way that a Valk should beat a Centurion in a fight unless the cent pilot is on sleeping pills or something. Dispite everyones desires to see it as a light fighter, the actual design of it makes it a medium "assault/attack" ship IMO, and that is exactly how the stats on it make it fly. I think it's fine as is and should not be messed with.

If you see someone beat anyone in a Valk, the other guy was on sleeping pills.

In a group situation in B8 I've seen Valks concur other players, there were others for support but that's what should be happening, team play, when the heat is not all one you it's not as bad a ship. And you can take more advantage of the third port.

"Why does half the car companies make there cars when they are not the top seller, because there is always someone that will buy it."

That's because not everyone can afford a $500,000 Ferrari, or even a $30,000 Lancer Evolution. Budget cars are still in production because manufacturers know that there is a large demand for cars, even if people can't afford the best car on the line. In Vendetta, we don't have that sort of monitary restriction.

"Diversity is the spice of life, and we STILL don't have enough of it in VO."

What the heck is that supposed to mean? You know why we don't have any diversity despite there being 11 distinctive ship types, totalling over 40 separate variations? THEY AREN'T BALANCED. Some ships are clearly superior, and some are just crap, and the crap ships are ignored.

"All ships should be equal to it's self, stronger then some, weaker then others."

What's that supposed to mean? How is that different from my original post?

"Right now, that's exactly how the Hog is. With the right pilot the I've see the wart take out ships in its current state under some bad odds. Practice more. Try a different weapons config. LESS NERFING."

Have you tried flying the Hog? I don't know about you, but I've flown the Hog for the last 5 months with every weapons config imaginable. AGT with neutrons, AGT with geminis, AGT with fireflys, AGT with sunflares, AGT with gauss, AGT with flechettes, GC with geminis, GC with flechettes, GC with neutrons, GC with gauss, PD with gauss, PD with geminis, swarms with neutrons, screamers with neutrons, screamers with sunflares, screamers with flechettes, repair gun with neutrons, repair gun with geminis, and that's just naming combinations that I'm certain that I've tried, and I know I've tried other ones. Don't go telling me that I need to practice more.

My problem with the Warthog is that it's clearly outperformed by the ATLAS. THE ATLAS FOR GOD'S SAKE! THE SHIP THAT NPC CANNONFODDER FLY! I don't understand why a cargo ship that looks like a dildo should be so superior to a dedicated combat ship in combat! The same weapon configurations that are mediocre at best on the Warthog kick some serious ass in the Atlas. I mean, I've beaten people with FLECHETTES using the Atlas. FLECHETTES! Try that on the Hog and you're gonna get cut to pieces!

To go back to your car example, that's like an Enzo Ferrari getting beaten off the line by a Volvo. Or putting it in combat terms, an Iowa class Battleship getting beaten by the Queen Elizabeth II in a broadside battle!

Now this is definitely over the top :)

Well your first problem is comparing a warthog with a fast ship, it's not. Secondly I agree with you that the atlas beating a warthog is not a good thing, but it can happen. Again, by changing the way ships handle ports, giving them more options then JUST WEAPONS, you can take away the power of the light, manuverable, EMPTY cargo ship and make it just what it was intended for, cargo hauling. If none of the npc traders need weapons to defend themselves why do any of pc traders, it's not like they stick around to fight anyway (except a few alpha/beta players). Give cargo/trader ships only small port weapons, and make mines work in a different port like an "equipment" port and your problem will be solved. THEN… with the dev's proved adeptness for making varients, you can then tweak an atlas as a combat varient and nerf the shit out of that one.

john, you keep missing the damn point!

"Again, by changing the way ships handle ports, giving them more options then JUST WEAPONS, you can take away the power of the light, manuverable, EMPTY cargo ship and make it just what it was intended for, cargo hauling."

My problem is that a "light, maneuverable, EMPTY cargo ship" is faster, more maneuver, and less susceptable to weight penalties than a [I]lighter, EMPTY combat ship. The Warthog only weighs 6000kg to the Atlas's 11000kg! Shouldn't that mean that the Warthog is faster and more manueverable? It SHOULD, but it ISN'T. Try it for yourself. Take a Hog into battle against someone really good, like Shape or Niki, and then take a similarly equipped Atlas against the same player. If you're a good Hog pilot, you'll do decently well, but still get beaten rather quickly. In the Atlas, the added maneuverability means you're going to do a hell of a lot better, and last a lot longer, despite the weaker armor.

I don't give a damn whether players hauling cargo in an Atlas decide to stick around a fight or not. The L-port is extremely useful with mines and things like that.

But it is a problem when players, looking for a combat analog for their Atlas, find out that it is not the Warthog as it should be, but rather the Atlas that they've been flying.

AN ATLAS COMBAT VARIANT?! DO YOU HAVE ANY IDEA WHAT YOU'RE SAYING?! THE [I][B]WARTHOG[/I][/B] IS THE ATLAS'S COMBAT VARIANT! I MEAN LOOK AT IT! THEY BOTH HAVE THE SAME S-PORT AND L-PORT, BUT THE WARTHOG HAS STRONGER ARMOR AND LESS CARGO SPACE! SOUNDS LIKE A FRIGGIN' COMBAT VARIANT TO ME! SO WHY THE HELL IS THE WARTHOG SO SHITTY IN COMBAT, AND THE ATLAS SO DAMN GOOD?! grr......

The main advantage of the Atlas in combat is of a psychological nature. With its shiny white painting and the color stripe, it looks very much like an ambulance, causing great confusion in the opponent's mind.

This psychological effect is of course greater when the Atlas is driven by a Serco pilot, because the likely red stripe color and the continuing blue flashing light of the AGT are distinctively reminiscent of a Red Cross/Croissant ambulance vehicle of Sol I.

At the moment, Itani Forces have found that the most effective countermeasure was to broadcast high volume Wagnerian opera music in the cockpit.

Dr Sun

I understand your point just fine CP, what I'm saying is if trade ships were not even viable combat options, which they are now, you would then only be left with the warthog to use and thus would not have your problem to begin with.

I have flown the atlas and the warthog agains many BLAK pilots and other well known "good" pilots and you ARE correct that the atlas is a superior ship as they are now.

And I'm saying that instead of making the Atlas not a viable combat option, the Warthog should be made a viable combat option.

The Atlas is a cargo ship with combat possibilities, and the Warthog should be a combat ship with some cargo possibilities (small, but there nonetheless). But the problem is that the Warthog isn't a very good combat ship.

It's main advantages are trumped by the Atlas. The Atlas is far more maneuverable than the Warthog, meaning that it's a much better combat option because its maneuverability keeps it from getting hit as often, which seems to prevent dying a lot more effectively than the Warthog's greater armor. So the Warthog needs to have more maneuverability to make it a better combat option than the Atlas, and the Atlas needs to be slightly less maneuverable, so that even though it can be used in combat, it's much better for dodging a bit and running for the hills.