Forums » Suggestions
Vendetta in its current form doesn't really penalize reckless gameplay. When you die you just buy a new ship and equip it within a matter of seconds. Money is burned up like it's nothing. Flag recovery and capture, or just skirmishes in general, end up being nothing more than spawnfests. I mean... some people end up getting bored with fighting, so they just recklessly boost into the skirmish, unload all their rockets into the crowd (and end up taking themselves out also most of the time), dock/respawn, and repeat until someone runs out of money or logs out. And this could go on for hours.
IMO, death should be treated in a way that'll discourage reckless gameplay. There needs to be something more than money and score in Vendetta that would encourage players to pick fights more carefully. There needs to be some motive to survive. The problem is, the devs have already clearly stated that we won't lose pilots during death. Meaning we won't have to make a new pilot, name it, select a nation, etc. after each death. And this makes a lot of sense -- it simply make the game more fun. So there needs to be another approach to the problem. Maybe at the level of the stations themselves...
For example, I think undocking from a station should have a delay. Maybe ten seconds. Maybe twenty. I don't know. But there needs to be some kind of delay. Not only does it "feel real" (pilot in the station having to gear up etc.), but it would also prevent the whole spawnfest war scenario (kill, die, spawn, kill, die, spawn, kill, die, spawn...). Heck, it may even discourage "stationing." Anyway, ideally we shouldn't see flag defenders or capturers doing repeated kamikaze runs. It just looks ridiculous. Instead, we should see battles where people actually retreat to avoid death, if they're outnumbered or outgunned. Or maybe resort to guerilla tactics. But the whole wave-after-wave-of-kamikazis approach just ruins the believability of what a real space battle should be (or rather what has been depicted in sci-fi).
And also... maybe some kind of advanced damage system could be implemented later on in development. Yes, I'm talking about individual system failures that would occur based on hit location and hull integrity in general. In addition to the coolness factor of the game, it would also frighten the player into retreating and saving his own life. I don't know about you, but if I went into a battle and if I suddenly took a lot of damage and all kinds of flashing lights and alarms went off in my cockpit, and my radar would start to flicker like crazy, I'd want to get my ass out of there!
So you see, there are tons of approaches to making life something more valuable in games. Unfortunately anything that's labeled "deathmatch" nowadays completely ignores these factors. There is nothing that motivates the player from dying, besides losing weapons/money/inventory, and therefore it becomes nothing more than a boring spawnfest. I certainly hope Vendetta won't become another cliche "deathmatch" game. True, it will eventually evolve into an MMORPG. But the "deathmatch" portion shouldn't be just another spawnfest type of game. Life needs to have some high value.
IMO, death should be treated in a way that'll discourage reckless gameplay. There needs to be something more than money and score in Vendetta that would encourage players to pick fights more carefully. There needs to be some motive to survive. The problem is, the devs have already clearly stated that we won't lose pilots during death. Meaning we won't have to make a new pilot, name it, select a nation, etc. after each death. And this makes a lot of sense -- it simply make the game more fun. So there needs to be another approach to the problem. Maybe at the level of the stations themselves...
For example, I think undocking from a station should have a delay. Maybe ten seconds. Maybe twenty. I don't know. But there needs to be some kind of delay. Not only does it "feel real" (pilot in the station having to gear up etc.), but it would also prevent the whole spawnfest war scenario (kill, die, spawn, kill, die, spawn, kill, die, spawn...). Heck, it may even discourage "stationing." Anyway, ideally we shouldn't see flag defenders or capturers doing repeated kamikaze runs. It just looks ridiculous. Instead, we should see battles where people actually retreat to avoid death, if they're outnumbered or outgunned. Or maybe resort to guerilla tactics. But the whole wave-after-wave-of-kamikazis approach just ruins the believability of what a real space battle should be (or rather what has been depicted in sci-fi).
And also... maybe some kind of advanced damage system could be implemented later on in development. Yes, I'm talking about individual system failures that would occur based on hit location and hull integrity in general. In addition to the coolness factor of the game, it would also frighten the player into retreating and saving his own life. I don't know about you, but if I went into a battle and if I suddenly took a lot of damage and all kinds of flashing lights and alarms went off in my cockpit, and my radar would start to flicker like crazy, I'd want to get my ass out of there!
So you see, there are tons of approaches to making life something more valuable in games. Unfortunately anything that's labeled "deathmatch" nowadays completely ignores these factors. There is nothing that motivates the player from dying, besides losing weapons/money/inventory, and therefore it becomes nothing more than a boring spawnfest. I certainly hope Vendetta won't become another cliche "deathmatch" game. True, it will eventually evolve into an MMORPG. But the "deathmatch" portion shouldn't be just another spawnfest type of game. Life needs to have some high value.
Perhaps when the captial ships are implemented it'll help this situation a bit. The individual fighters may respawn endlessly, but the cap ships will take considerable resources to build. Battles would be decided based on who can keep their capital ships alive the longest.
Idea! Wehn you undock the ship will be put out into the dock with no wings or weapons etc. The door will close then, mechanical arms will attach wings, engines, then weapon ports back onto it, the less weapons you have the quicker you can leave!
Erm... And if someone's station camping you? Boom... I'd like to see death penalized or something, too... But it would put an end to my happy kamikaze bus madness... :(
besides after a while it will get boring, to see constantly the same animations.
besides, I don't really like the penaltie part, cause if somebody is after you, for instance a pirat, you will be killed a lot, and you are already penalized through the loss of your cargo and your ship.
and if you do wanna give them some penalty, maybe giving the person that was killed a 5 seconds penalty for not being able to enter the same sector as were he just was killed.
but really haven't got a rat's idea for a good penalty, even if the devs want to put it in. Besides , I'm enjoying the game as it is, it's a RPG/Sci-Fi/MMORPG game, it isn't a simulator game.
cheers
besides, I don't really like the penaltie part, cause if somebody is after you, for instance a pirat, you will be killed a lot, and you are already penalized through the loss of your cargo and your ship.
and if you do wanna give them some penalty, maybe giving the person that was killed a 5 seconds penalty for not being able to enter the same sector as were he just was killed.
but really haven't got a rat's idea for a good penalty, even if the devs want to put it in. Besides , I'm enjoying the game as it is, it's a RPG/Sci-Fi/MMORPG game, it isn't a simulator game.
cheers
The undocking delay isn't as long as you think. I don't mean a 1-hour wait or something. Just a delay long enough so people won't respawn instantaneously. In earlier versions of Vendetta where the buyback feature wasn't present, it took people some time to manually re-equip their ships. Now with the whole automated process, it takes only a second or two, making death seem like nothing. I especially like Suicidal's idea of making buyback/undocking longer based on how much you equip your ship. That way newbies in buses won't get tired of the penalty.
And FYI, the devs will eventually find a solution to those who station camp, station mine, and wormhole camp. Those are just minor setbacks to the suggested solution. But ultimately, If a trader can't defend him or herself from pirates, that's their problem. It shouldn't give that person any special privelages to respawn any quicker than the rest of us. Much like how they're dying right now, they too lose money and have to repurchase a ship like the rest of us. So why should they get special treatment later on in development? The way I see it... EVERYONE has to learn to run away or defend himself as a fundamental part of the game. There are no "buts" about it.
And FYI, the devs will eventually find a solution to those who station camp, station mine, and wormhole camp. Those are just minor setbacks to the suggested solution. But ultimately, If a trader can't defend him or herself from pirates, that's their problem. It shouldn't give that person any special privelages to respawn any quicker than the rest of us. Much like how they're dying right now, they too lose money and have to repurchase a ship like the rest of us. So why should they get special treatment later on in development? The way I see it... EVERYONE has to learn to run away or defend himself as a fundamental part of the game. There are no "buts" about it.
I'm sure that's all coming...Vendetta did start out as a deathmatch-style game. It's undergoing a transformation into a roleplaying game with each new version.
Give the devs time - I'm sure they've thought of this.
Give the devs time - I'm sure they've thought of this.
Station Camping/mining: Will probably be solved by Station Defensive Turrets which will shoot hostile ships or mines. (hostility to be determined by a reputation system).
Wormhole Camping: You fall into some sort of anomaly "trap" if you're in a jumpzone for more than 30 seconds with full energy. Imagine the anomaly as a sandworm, and that lovely, full ship battery is a thumper.
<***> LeathaL fell into an unstable anomaly in sector 9.
<Phoenix> hehehehehe
<LeathaL> oh shut up. When I get out oh here, you are SO dead.
Wormhole Camping: You fall into some sort of anomaly "trap" if you're in a jumpzone for more than 30 seconds with full energy. Imagine the anomaly as a sandworm, and that lovely, full ship battery is a thumper.
<***> LeathaL fell into an unstable anomaly in sector 9.
<Phoenix> hehehehehe
<LeathaL> oh shut up. When I get out oh here, you are SO dead.
You got leathal's grammar incorrect, it would be along the lines of "shut up when i get out oh here you so dead" See! No punctuation and the I's arn't capatilized. =P
As for the specific damage to the ship the devs plan to impliment that. That's why we have the little picture of the ship that changes colors based on where you get hit on the HUD.
ctishman, the devs have said that all things wormhole and jumping related are going to require conscious action on the part of the player, meaning that there won't be any involuntary teleportation. Incarnate said Vendetta wormholes are distinctly not Star-Trek-style wormholes and that you would have to act for them to do anything.
Big idea: Tolls. That's right, if you're gonna travel to another sector, it will cost you a bit of money. That should cut down on "kamikaze runs," as well as reckless pirates.
It should be based on either ship mass (hull+upgrades+cargo), or ship type. Although the first option may be more reasonable as Incarnate has stated that we will be moving away from the Light/Medium/Heavy line of thinking. But for now, it could be based on the second. A bus would have next to no penalty. Then for Light-Heavy, we could skew it one of two ways. One, heavies cost more, because they carry more stuff. Secondly, we could charge lights more, as they are used primarily for combat. Just a thought.....
Random Thought: Human enemy players should show up as orange, not red on the radar. That way it's easy to differentiate between AI and humans.
It should be based on either ship mass (hull+upgrades+cargo), or ship type. Although the first option may be more reasonable as Incarnate has stated that we will be moving away from the Light/Medium/Heavy line of thinking. But for now, it could be based on the second. A bus would have next to no penalty. Then for Light-Heavy, we could skew it one of two ways. One, heavies cost more, because they carry more stuff. Secondly, we could charge lights more, as they are used primarily for combat. Just a thought.....
Random Thought: Human enemy players should show up as orange, not red on the radar. That way it's easy to differentiate between AI and humans.
Here's an idea, Skill systems. We would have skills such as. Ion fighting, Rocket accuracy. Dog Fighting, etc. The more you use them, they level up, each level, you get better at the skill. Like say you level up in Dogfighting, you take less damage per hit. Or your ship gains more hp. Etc. But when you die, you are penalized in your skill system. Say you die like 5 times, then you would start to lose a level in a few skills.
Hmmmm... soooo what you're saying is veteran players will have an unfair advantage in hull percentage while the newbies who die constantly die even more easily? Nice, Phoenix. Very nice.
So what your saying is that n00bs get anything veterans have? And us experienced players get nothing for our hardwork? Nice, real nice.
there should be a n00b skill, decrease dmg taken by 1 point for each point of that skill you have, when you first start the game you receive 500 n00b skill points, 2 points disappear every minute you are online. After 4 hours the n00b will be 100% vulnerable, BUT the n00b should know how to run now! The skill is non gainable.
IMO the only two things players should gain with experience is more ships (unlocking ships based on score) and an increase in score/stats. Giving experienced player an unfair advantage will only get newbies to quit the game really fast. The game is supposed to be enjoyable for everyone, not just for a select few "l33t d00dz."
Now, someone may argue that the unlocked ships may be stronger than the newbie ships. Not so. Every single ship in the game should be balanced, which is probably why they're working towards giving every nation every ship for 3.2.0. So that won't be the case at all. In other words experienced players should be rewarded, but only with stats to brag about and cooler looking ships.
Now, someone may argue that the unlocked ships may be stronger than the newbie ships. Not so. Every single ship in the game should be balanced, which is probably why they're working towards giving every nation every ship for 3.2.0. So that won't be the case at all. In other words experienced players should be rewarded, but only with stats to brag about and cooler looking ships.
Well, first, yes at present mostly 'fleet actions' are spawn fests.
But that is largely due to the size of the universe.
No one is ever more than a few minutes from everywhere else.
But what about a universe which contained 10,000 sectors - many larger than the ones we have now. People could be 45 minutes or more from the battle when they respawn. And it shouldn't be assumed that just because you can set all stations as home stations now, that every station will maintain this ability - or that every ship and peice of equipment will be available everywhere.
At present, the loss of a ship is fairly trivial. We won't always be able to assume that is true.
At present, we don't really have characters. If upon death our characters lose experience, skills, money, and reputation we will take better care of them.
But if life is too valuable you run the risk of not only the game becoming boring, but characters being always at the mercy of packs of newbies. Imagine what it would be like if upon dying you lost EVERYTHING (money in the bank, ships stored in dock, experience, whatever).
SirCamps: I feel obliged to note that you 'toll system' is in many ways identical to the fuel system I proposed, and has some of the same purposes.
In my opinion, experienced players should gain reputation (unlocking new and better equipment), money (allowing the purchase of that equipment), and skills. Skills need not and probably shouldn't be directly tied to combat. There shouldn't be a 'does more damage skill'. Skills could make trading more profitable, improve reputation with certain factions, allow mining to occur faster, allow research to occur faster, etc. Those skills that do effect combat should allow for only slight incremental advantages (like 1% per skill point with a 20 point max presumably): slightly better power production, slightly better top speed, improved repair time, improved sensor range, better manueverablity from larger ships, etc. I don't think such things will drive off newbies _as long as they can contribute_. Instead, I think that they will give new players goals to stive for.
But that is largely due to the size of the universe.
No one is ever more than a few minutes from everywhere else.
But what about a universe which contained 10,000 sectors - many larger than the ones we have now. People could be 45 minutes or more from the battle when they respawn. And it shouldn't be assumed that just because you can set all stations as home stations now, that every station will maintain this ability - or that every ship and peice of equipment will be available everywhere.
At present, the loss of a ship is fairly trivial. We won't always be able to assume that is true.
At present, we don't really have characters. If upon death our characters lose experience, skills, money, and reputation we will take better care of them.
But if life is too valuable you run the risk of not only the game becoming boring, but characters being always at the mercy of packs of newbies. Imagine what it would be like if upon dying you lost EVERYTHING (money in the bank, ships stored in dock, experience, whatever).
SirCamps: I feel obliged to note that you 'toll system' is in many ways identical to the fuel system I proposed, and has some of the same purposes.
In my opinion, experienced players should gain reputation (unlocking new and better equipment), money (allowing the purchase of that equipment), and skills. Skills need not and probably shouldn't be directly tied to combat. There shouldn't be a 'does more damage skill'. Skills could make trading more profitable, improve reputation with certain factions, allow mining to occur faster, allow research to occur faster, etc. Those skills that do effect combat should allow for only slight incremental advantages (like 1% per skill point with a 20 point max presumably): slightly better power production, slightly better top speed, improved repair time, improved sensor range, better manueverablity from larger ships, etc. I don't think such things will drive off newbies _as long as they can contribute_. Instead, I think that they will give new players goals to stive for.
Skill systems... pho that's silly. This game is skill. You level up in skill with SKILL. ;) The more rocket practice I do the more accurate I become with rockets. Hence I already level up. Silly.
Maybe they should set things up so that it takes a few minutes/hours to build a ship, but if you have another ship in reserve you don't have to wait at the station for it to complete. That way normal players can get going again quickly after dying, but kamakaze pilots will run out of ships really quick.
And I really don't want to see a "skill" system. Skill systems are a necessary evil in games in which you don't have total control over your actions, like in an RPG where you attack an enemy simply by selecting an "attack" command, instead of controlling your movements yourself. Vendetta, on the other hand, is a simulation which gives you the same amount of control over your ship that a "real" pilot would have in the same situation. Having things like hit damage increase over time in a simulation would just be unrealistic and annoying for those who just want to have fun, instead of dedicating all their free time to increasing their stats. Having things like more specialized (but not better) ships and access to more sectors open up over time would provide a sufficient reward for experienced players while still keeping things fun for the newbies.
And I really don't want to see a "skill" system. Skill systems are a necessary evil in games in which you don't have total control over your actions, like in an RPG where you attack an enemy simply by selecting an "attack" command, instead of controlling your movements yourself. Vendetta, on the other hand, is a simulation which gives you the same amount of control over your ship that a "real" pilot would have in the same situation. Having things like hit damage increase over time in a simulation would just be unrealistic and annoying for those who just want to have fun, instead of dedicating all their free time to increasing their stats. Having things like more specialized (but not better) ships and access to more sectors open up over time would provide a sufficient reward for experienced players while still keeping things fun for the newbies.