Forums » Suggestions
Making Rails competitive
[EDIT] : Doh I posted this in the wrong forum. Can a mod please move it to Suggestiosn please? Sorry.
Ok, I had a great night of railling and being railed (thanks alamar). So the rails are not as "nerfed" as the stats show, and they do start to grow on you after you have played with them for a while.
I can imagine the idea of rails being some kinda of very unforgiving-but-deadly-in-the-right-hands weapon (hence its availability subjecting to PK scores). So yeah, it's ok for them to be hard to use, but rewarding when used properly.
Still, it is still a bit tad weak at the moment. Here are my observations :
(a) Rail Velocity are 400-480m/s Since you cannot "stream" them, you have to hit your target precisly with the first strike. However, ships today (viz Cents) are so fast and twitchy now even if you have GREAT aim, you still *cannot* (no matter how good you are), hit them if they are >100m away and they are making simply random motions. Yes, you can hit them if you can "predict" them (so they are a dodge-bind's worse nightmare), but a half-way decent pilot can easily dodge a rail by simply making random motion.
(b) "Ammo! Ammo! Ammo!" That's the words that are constantly screaming in your head when you are fighting. Your hands become twitchy, you curse yourself at every miss, you held back your fire at half-chances (those that you'll just blast away with neuts). That is fine. I enjoy the tension and deliberateness of each shot. 3
(c) Energy consumption. Much has been said about the 90-110 energy consumption per shot. Personally I don't find it much of a problem : you don't randomly spam away, so you usually have plenty of time to charge it up before an firing solution comes into your view.
Suggestions :
Ok, that's the observations. The latest update 1.2.2.1 has "de-nerfed" the rails somewhat! I know the devs didn't announce it because the rails are "unlockable" weapons (i.e. you need to achieve 25/100/500 pks for them). So SPOILERS ahead :
(a) MK2 : 30 shots, 1600 dmg, 400m/s, 800kg. This rail is pretty decent weapon, except that it is a bit too massive at 800kg. The mass means that the best fighting style is just to reverse and try to tag your target face on since you'll die in a furball dog-fight with energy. That is fine, but a bit too one-dimensional. Why not down the mass to 700 kg? That would encourage more rail users to try it. It is a nice "introduction" Rail : plenty of shots so it is a bit more forgiving than the others.
(b) MK3 : I have not played too much with this, since it is not much better than the MK2, and only have 15 shots. The 15 shots are too little, maybe up it to 20 shots and people might fly it.
(c) Adv Rail : Ok this is what I would like to talk about the most. The "Adv Rail" is now pretty deadly : 480 m/s (yay), 2500dmg (yay). But it is very limited : 10 shots (boo), 1500kg (BOOOBOOOO!).
Now, following our "Rail-is-deadly-at-right-hands-but-unforgiving" weapon theme, the Adv Rail is almost perfect except for a little tweaking. FIrst off, 10 shots is too little : in fact you only have a potential of dealing 25000 dmg with a Adv Rail while you can do 48000 dmg with a MK2. (Now, since you can do way more per shot, it is fine to have less "potential" damage than the Mk2.) Why not either (a) up the damage to 3000dmg or (b) increase shots to 15?
Next, the mass. 1500kg is way too much. That's more massive than a Gatling Turret! Down it to 1000kg (like the Gauss) or maybe even just 1200kg, and a dual Adv Rail cent/vult will be flyable. You'll still get pwned by energy if you don't take the few chances you have in a dogfight, but at least you can "dogfight" instead of just sitting back and taking pot shots. (Btw i feel that the vult is actually a better platform for rails, maybe because of the less twitchy way it handles.) But hey, if you can get the Adv Rail, you should be pretty damn good right?
Ok, I had a great night of railling and being railed (thanks alamar). So the rails are not as "nerfed" as the stats show, and they do start to grow on you after you have played with them for a while.
I can imagine the idea of rails being some kinda of very unforgiving-but-deadly-in-the-right-hands weapon (hence its availability subjecting to PK scores). So yeah, it's ok for them to be hard to use, but rewarding when used properly.
Still, it is still a bit tad weak at the moment. Here are my observations :
(a) Rail Velocity are 400-480m/s Since you cannot "stream" them, you have to hit your target precisly with the first strike. However, ships today (viz Cents) are so fast and twitchy now even if you have GREAT aim, you still *cannot* (no matter how good you are), hit them if they are >100m away and they are making simply random motions. Yes, you can hit them if you can "predict" them (so they are a dodge-bind's worse nightmare), but a half-way decent pilot can easily dodge a rail by simply making random motion.
(b) "Ammo! Ammo! Ammo!" That's the words that are constantly screaming in your head when you are fighting. Your hands become twitchy, you curse yourself at every miss, you held back your fire at half-chances (those that you'll just blast away with neuts). That is fine. I enjoy the tension and deliberateness of each shot. 3
(c) Energy consumption. Much has been said about the 90-110 energy consumption per shot. Personally I don't find it much of a problem : you don't randomly spam away, so you usually have plenty of time to charge it up before an firing solution comes into your view.
Suggestions :
Ok, that's the observations. The latest update 1.2.2.1 has "de-nerfed" the rails somewhat! I know the devs didn't announce it because the rails are "unlockable" weapons (i.e. you need to achieve 25/100/500 pks for them). So SPOILERS ahead :
(a) MK2 : 30 shots, 1600 dmg, 400m/s, 800kg. This rail is pretty decent weapon, except that it is a bit too massive at 800kg. The mass means that the best fighting style is just to reverse and try to tag your target face on since you'll die in a furball dog-fight with energy. That is fine, but a bit too one-dimensional. Why not down the mass to 700 kg? That would encourage more rail users to try it. It is a nice "introduction" Rail : plenty of shots so it is a bit more forgiving than the others.
(b) MK3 : I have not played too much with this, since it is not much better than the MK2, and only have 15 shots. The 15 shots are too little, maybe up it to 20 shots and people might fly it.
(c) Adv Rail : Ok this is what I would like to talk about the most. The "Adv Rail" is now pretty deadly : 480 m/s (yay), 2500dmg (yay). But it is very limited : 10 shots (boo), 1500kg (BOOOBOOOO!).
Now, following our "Rail-is-deadly-at-right-hands-but-unforgiving" weapon theme, the Adv Rail is almost perfect except for a little tweaking. FIrst off, 10 shots is too little : in fact you only have a potential of dealing 25000 dmg with a Adv Rail while you can do 48000 dmg with a MK2. (Now, since you can do way more per shot, it is fine to have less "potential" damage than the Mk2.) Why not either (a) up the damage to 3000dmg or (b) increase shots to 15?
Next, the mass. 1500kg is way too much. That's more massive than a Gatling Turret! Down it to 1000kg (like the Gauss) or maybe even just 1200kg, and a dual Adv Rail cent/vult will be flyable. You'll still get pwned by energy if you don't take the few chances you have in a dogfight, but at least you can "dogfight" instead of just sitting back and taking pot shots. (Btw i feel that the vult is actually a better platform for rails, maybe because of the less twitchy way it handles.) But hey, if you can get the Adv Rail, you should be pretty damn good right?
I think the point of the adv. rail is its not supposed to dual-mounted. Its good that a valk with 3 of these will have a hell of a job 1-hitting a rev C because the weight will be crucial.
This is pretty much perfect in balancing the railgun with other stuff. The advanced really will make you go "OW! DAMMIT" instead of "Hey, quit it " *rocketspam*. softy2, if the advanced rails were any lighter, they'd be whined about, and nerfed again.
Btw, the MkIII could stand to be a lightweight variant with less ammo and slightly less damage than the rest...
This is pretty much perfect in balancing the railgun with other stuff. The advanced really will make you go "OW! DAMMIT" instead of "Hey, quit it " *rocketspam*. softy2, if the advanced rails were any lighter, they'd be whined about, and nerfed again.
Btw, the MkIII could stand to be a lightweight variant with less ammo and slightly less damage than the rest...
hey, the MkIIIs as lightweight, sure! with less ammo _and_ less damage? eerrr, no? or are you thinking of making the weapon itself weigh in at around 300-400Kgs?
and as softy2 found out, the main issue with rails now isn't damage per se, it's the complete impossibility to hit a decent dodger at 200-400m unless he makes a mistake. the silly thing is that I have two hit-zones, under 200m while someone boosts, that should be a hit, over 500m while someone relaxes and thinks.
as for the advanced rails, well, maybe they'd get whined about, but you still have to hit. anyone who has actually used rails knows exactly how easy that job is. with 10 shots, you'll hit one for surprise value, and after that, well, against a decent pilot, best of luck. when fighting Shape with advanced rails, and I had MkII rails, I made him run out of ammo rather easily. and this was in a semi-dogfight. against Holden with MkIIs, well, we gave and took some, thankfully for my self-esteem and all, I took more than I got. go me! :-)
oh, and another thing, Martin might be a good dodger, but I hit him once in three fights. fighting someone with a ping of 300 while you're at 150 yourself, with rails, is almost impossible. I literally saw shots go through him. I wouldn't expect to _win_ any of those fights (Martin can dodge, that bastard) but when I hit Shapes Axia posi Rev C, I frigging well can hit a Wraith more than once in three duels.
as for energy, I've tried saying this before -- you don't really care if it's 90 or 110. 1.6 seconds of waiting means that you only have one shot at one chance, and it usually takes a few seconds to get the next chance -- at which point even a heavy battery will give you back enough energy anyway.
oh, and a tri-adv-rail Valk? yeah, that can be a good ship, but if you fire a tri-shot, you need a heavy battery for one thing, and you also just fired 10% of your ammo. and what's worse, the positioning on the Valk might just mean that you won't hit with three shots. remember, a yellow reticle when using rails doesn't mean "this'll hit if he's keeps his motion steady", it means "well, you know, if you get lucky". I really don't know why it does that, but the shots you hit with come from a very very small part of that yellow zone, and I'd really like to see it get yellow when you could actually expect a hit (which means it'd be yellow a lot less).
(oh, Shape, please post your thoughts about replacing the PK rewards with something relating to PKs. it's somewhat annoying to get rails for PKs, since noone who gets 500PKs has made them with rails these days.)
and as softy2 found out, the main issue with rails now isn't damage per se, it's the complete impossibility to hit a decent dodger at 200-400m unless he makes a mistake. the silly thing is that I have two hit-zones, under 200m while someone boosts, that should be a hit, over 500m while someone relaxes and thinks.
as for the advanced rails, well, maybe they'd get whined about, but you still have to hit. anyone who has actually used rails knows exactly how easy that job is. with 10 shots, you'll hit one for surprise value, and after that, well, against a decent pilot, best of luck. when fighting Shape with advanced rails, and I had MkII rails, I made him run out of ammo rather easily. and this was in a semi-dogfight. against Holden with MkIIs, well, we gave and took some, thankfully for my self-esteem and all, I took more than I got. go me! :-)
oh, and another thing, Martin might be a good dodger, but I hit him once in three fights. fighting someone with a ping of 300 while you're at 150 yourself, with rails, is almost impossible. I literally saw shots go through him. I wouldn't expect to _win_ any of those fights (Martin can dodge, that bastard) but when I hit Shapes Axia posi Rev C, I frigging well can hit a Wraith more than once in three duels.
as for energy, I've tried saying this before -- you don't really care if it's 90 or 110. 1.6 seconds of waiting means that you only have one shot at one chance, and it usually takes a few seconds to get the next chance -- at which point even a heavy battery will give you back enough energy anyway.
oh, and a tri-adv-rail Valk? yeah, that can be a good ship, but if you fire a tri-shot, you need a heavy battery for one thing, and you also just fired 10% of your ammo. and what's worse, the positioning on the Valk might just mean that you won't hit with three shots. remember, a yellow reticle when using rails doesn't mean "this'll hit if he's keeps his motion steady", it means "well, you know, if you get lucky". I really don't know why it does that, but the shots you hit with come from a very very small part of that yellow zone, and I'd really like to see it get yellow when you could actually expect a hit (which means it'd be yellow a lot less).
(oh, Shape, please post your thoughts about replacing the PK rewards with something relating to PKs. it's somewhat annoying to get rails for PKs, since noone who gets 500PKs has made them with rails these days.)
terjekv: :) posted
Uncledave :
Well about the Adv Rail being single-mounted weapons, maybe you can fix up a 400kg N3 on the other small port in a cent/vult, but then you have a total 1900kg worth of weapons.
I actually tried this today, flying a gauss/n2 + rail cent. I find basically 2 things :
(a) The aiming for the rail and gauss/n2 are very different, so you are constantly torn between trying for the "rail solution" or "energy solution". Basically, that means that you are flying with just one weapon, weighed down by the other you are not going to use.
(b) There is one possibility : use the energy for close range and the rail to tag long range heavy ships (like, say, the prom). But again, you have to have a target who would kindly play your game and stay back for you to shoot it. Besides, at 200-250m, even a prom will have no problem dodging a rail shot if he/she is vigilent.
The Adv Rail is so heavy and have so few shots, I'll rather fly a dual Mk2 Rail (1600kg, 60 shots) ship than a single Adv Rail ship (1500kg, 10shots)
Well about the Adv Rail being single-mounted weapons, maybe you can fix up a 400kg N3 on the other small port in a cent/vult, but then you have a total 1900kg worth of weapons.
I actually tried this today, flying a gauss/n2 + rail cent. I find basically 2 things :
(a) The aiming for the rail and gauss/n2 are very different, so you are constantly torn between trying for the "rail solution" or "energy solution". Basically, that means that you are flying with just one weapon, weighed down by the other you are not going to use.
(b) There is one possibility : use the energy for close range and the rail to tag long range heavy ships (like, say, the prom). But again, you have to have a target who would kindly play your game and stay back for you to shoot it. Besides, at 200-250m, even a prom will have no problem dodging a rail shot if he/she is vigilent.
The Adv Rail is so heavy and have so few shots, I'll rather fly a dual Mk2 Rail (1600kg, 60 shots) ship than a single Adv Rail ship (1500kg, 10shots)
apart from the feeling of using rails, the main reason for me using a dual rail layout is as softy2 says, it's very very hard to get a rail / energy layout to work well.
your method of _flying_ is very very different, and suddely the drain from the rails becomes very relevant, since you can't spam energy and then fire a rail with any ease, at least not with a Fast Charge. you end up fighting two different fights, one with each weapon, and that's rarely a smart thing in a light fighter. Holden usually fell back to using one weapon in every duel, or "changing" fights in mid-fight. going from one to the other usually costs you some pain though.
your method of _flying_ is very very different, and suddely the drain from the rails becomes very relevant, since you can't spam energy and then fire a rail with any ease, at least not with a Fast Charge. you end up fighting two different fights, one with each weapon, and that's rarely a smart thing in a light fighter. Holden usually fell back to using one weapon in every duel, or "changing" fights in mid-fight. going from one to the other usually costs you some pain though.