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Hi, I'm still here, and would like to say a few things about the prom. The prom is uber. That's universally agreed. If you check my duel stats out, the only loss in there was I think in an SVG. This is not purely down to my skill (I wish).
Where this thread differs from other threads is that I am not going to provide empirical evidence for or against nerfing of rockets or ships or whatever, nor am I just going to say that something needs to be done without suggesting anything useful, or pigeonhole all the prom pilots as Serco noobs (especially since there's one or two Itani pilots who can't use the prom for squat.)
One thing is worrying me, and that's this safety on rockets as a supposed balance.
THIS IS A BAD IDEA.
The only viable L port weapons to take into combat are rockets, swarms, or AGT. There is no more variety than that, as it stands. The megaposi, while faster, is still relatively crap even compared to its axia S port brother. The devastators won't hit any more often than gauss, are heavier, and mounted on less maneuvrable ships. But we already know all of this.
I would like to ask you all how it is physically possible to take down a Rev C with a Ragnarok without some sort of heavy explosives at mid-close range. It just WILL NOT be scared of you if it knows it can dance around INSIDE the safety range. Personally, I'm not an advocate of the spam'n'hope technique, I can fly pretty much any heavy ship and know what to do with them. Without the threat of the dreaded rocket ram it all falls apart.
The way I see it there are 3 issues which need to be struck a balance between.
1) The speed/usage of the rockets. Eg: sunflares. 55m/s was too slow to hit anything other than in a ram, but 85m/s extended the ram's sphere of influence. There is no way to hit a dodging fighter at 100m with 55m/s sunflares, however. Its just not going to work if they have any presence of mind. And currently, they're only mountable on heavy ships in all practicality, because they simply nerf light ships' maneuvrability when rocket loadouts are what you want to equip.
2) The prom. Its godly because it almost has to be down to the lack of variety of stuff to put in the L port, but it doesn't need to be as well-rounded as it is currently. With rocket speeds as high as they are now you can literally dodge most shots but still tank like a crazy mofo. This is all wrong, there needs to be a weakness, and I'll go into this again later.
3) The fighters. The valk isnt crap, but its not up to the job as a special. Many weapons are crippling to mount (including sunflares, which happen to be great at taking on a prom.) The recent weapon balances have caused the Axia posi and XGX phased to come to the forefront of PvP, along with N2/N3s. None of these can take down a superagile prom, no matter what the fighter. Boost them up and the heavy ships get a royal kick in the nuts, so this isn't an option.
So what's the balance? Its easy.
The tank-prom. The missing link in the ships we have.
I know that the devs have said that big sweeping changes to ships are not on the agenda, but a rocket safety fuse is FAR more dramatic than simply adjusting the prom to fit a new role. All I am asking is that there be a trial of a 30k armor, 530N thrust, 14spin prom (with slightly lower turbo thrust). If this doesn't work, fine, but itd actually fit a role instead of trying to get the best of both worlds out of a single ship. Its NOT a medium, its a huge metal slug with a damn good engine. Serco (the nation) would probably just slap on extra armor plating rather than leave it nippy and maneuvrable. And the name Skycommand brings up images of a REAL tough to kill ship. This should be the borderline of the "small" ship class. Two IBGs should be NOT IMPOSSIBLE to kill with one skycommand, but a valk should pose a problem. The only way to do this is with higher armor and lower maneuvrability.
In short, don't nerf the rockets, alter the prom.
Where this thread differs from other threads is that I am not going to provide empirical evidence for or against nerfing of rockets or ships or whatever, nor am I just going to say that something needs to be done without suggesting anything useful, or pigeonhole all the prom pilots as Serco noobs (especially since there's one or two Itani pilots who can't use the prom for squat.)
One thing is worrying me, and that's this safety on rockets as a supposed balance.
THIS IS A BAD IDEA.
The only viable L port weapons to take into combat are rockets, swarms, or AGT. There is no more variety than that, as it stands. The megaposi, while faster, is still relatively crap even compared to its axia S port brother. The devastators won't hit any more often than gauss, are heavier, and mounted on less maneuvrable ships. But we already know all of this.
I would like to ask you all how it is physically possible to take down a Rev C with a Ragnarok without some sort of heavy explosives at mid-close range. It just WILL NOT be scared of you if it knows it can dance around INSIDE the safety range. Personally, I'm not an advocate of the spam'n'hope technique, I can fly pretty much any heavy ship and know what to do with them. Without the threat of the dreaded rocket ram it all falls apart.
The way I see it there are 3 issues which need to be struck a balance between.
1) The speed/usage of the rockets. Eg: sunflares. 55m/s was too slow to hit anything other than in a ram, but 85m/s extended the ram's sphere of influence. There is no way to hit a dodging fighter at 100m with 55m/s sunflares, however. Its just not going to work if they have any presence of mind. And currently, they're only mountable on heavy ships in all practicality, because they simply nerf light ships' maneuvrability when rocket loadouts are what you want to equip.
2) The prom. Its godly because it almost has to be down to the lack of variety of stuff to put in the L port, but it doesn't need to be as well-rounded as it is currently. With rocket speeds as high as they are now you can literally dodge most shots but still tank like a crazy mofo. This is all wrong, there needs to be a weakness, and I'll go into this again later.
3) The fighters. The valk isnt crap, but its not up to the job as a special. Many weapons are crippling to mount (including sunflares, which happen to be great at taking on a prom.) The recent weapon balances have caused the Axia posi and XGX phased to come to the forefront of PvP, along with N2/N3s. None of these can take down a superagile prom, no matter what the fighter. Boost them up and the heavy ships get a royal kick in the nuts, so this isn't an option.
So what's the balance? Its easy.
The tank-prom. The missing link in the ships we have.
I know that the devs have said that big sweeping changes to ships are not on the agenda, but a rocket safety fuse is FAR more dramatic than simply adjusting the prom to fit a new role. All I am asking is that there be a trial of a 30k armor, 530N thrust, 14spin prom (with slightly lower turbo thrust). If this doesn't work, fine, but itd actually fit a role instead of trying to get the best of both worlds out of a single ship. Its NOT a medium, its a huge metal slug with a damn good engine. Serco (the nation) would probably just slap on extra armor plating rather than leave it nippy and maneuvrable. And the name Skycommand brings up images of a REAL tough to kill ship. This should be the borderline of the "small" ship class. Two IBGs should be NOT IMPOSSIBLE to kill with one skycommand, but a valk should pose a problem. The only way to do this is with higher armor and lower maneuvrability.
In short, don't nerf the rockets, alter the prom.
I rarely use rockets, so I can't comment on them. But, when you say "The megaposi, while faster, is still relatively crap even compared to its axia S port brother" I must disagree. The megaposi is IMO the best energy weapon in the game at this point. Check out the Weapons Table in the Wiki: http://www.vo-gate.com/mediawiki/index.php/Weapons:Table - the megiposi has nearly the best velocity, nearly the best damage, very good mass, and by far the best damage per energy.
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Here's a thought on the prom: how about maybe dropping its thrust a bit more (maybe not, now that this last patch dropped it another 25) so that it can't dodge quite so well, but crank its spin torque up, so it can spin to track its targets better. But maybe that would make the AGT too powerful. Whadda y'all think?
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Here's a thought on the prom: how about maybe dropping its thrust a bit more (maybe not, now that this last patch dropped it another 25) so that it can't dodge quite so well, but crank its spin torque up, so it can spin to track its targets better. But maybe that would make the AGT too powerful. Whadda y'all think?
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What the heck.. Still?
The last update puts the prom >100 e drain to go from 0-190. This means that right now, a SC prometheus is completely unable to track or follow a fucking transport in CtC.
YEY!
Shove it all.
The last update puts the prom >100 e drain to go from 0-190. This means that right now, a SC prometheus is completely unable to track or follow a fucking transport in CtC.
YEY!
Shove it all.
beo, stats arent everything.. the megaposi has to be mounted on a much more massive and as a result far less agile ship than the other weapons that are near it in damage/velocity. making it more or less useless in a dogfight because it has almost no autoaim. if it had a small autoaim increase to go with it, it would stand a much better chance in combat.
Again,
A bomber able to do PVP does not compute.
A bomber able to do PVP does not compute.
So give me bombs, Tosheeba. not peashooters.
Spellcast, I was botting with a rag that was equiped with (2) Megaposi's and (3) Neutron MkII's and the MegaPositrons tracked the Prosus that I was fighting better then the NeutMkII's did so don't say they have no auto-aim cause they have great auto-aim IMO.
As for the Prom, it's been put back in it's place, finally!! The Prom is a support ship, not a dueling ship, it's not going to out do any light fighter, but if a light fighter should make a mistake the Prom will still rip it to shreds with rockets or the agt.
As for the Prom, it's been put back in it's place, finally!! The Prom is a support ship, not a dueling ship, it's not going to out do any light fighter, but if a light fighter should make a mistake the Prom will still rip it to shreds with rockets or the agt.
john botting is not the same as combat. Please stop using botting as an argument for combat. A bot has a predictable movement pattern that i can hit without even turning the autoaim on. players are more random and the ships players use much faster, making autoaim both more and less useful.
However the one thing that IS a fact, is that weapons with a larger autoaim arc are needed on heavier ships in COMBAT, (not botting) to offset the fact that they cant turn as fast.
and i didnt say it had NO autoaim, i said it had ALMOST no autoaim. a 5degree radius cone is not a lot of arc.
However the one thing that IS a fact, is that weapons with a larger autoaim arc are needed on heavier ships in COMBAT, (not botting) to offset the fact that they cant turn as fast.
and i didnt say it had NO autoaim, i said it had ALMOST no autoaim. a 5degree radius cone is not a lot of arc.
If we're ever on at the same time, meet me & my Tunguska Aggresso somewhere, Spellcast. Let's see if one of us can't convince the other about the MegaPosi. ;-)
IMO, the Prom should be a very heavy hitter against large and/or slow moving targets, at any range. I think it fits there well. But, I'd also like it to be effective at short range against light/fast ships. If a Centurian is cautious enough, it should usually be able to take down a Prom, but you do not want to take it in too close. Give the Prom an excellent spin torque, so it can track targets well, and I think that might help.
IMO, the Prom should be a very heavy hitter against large and/or slow moving targets, at any range. I think it fits there well. But, I'd also like it to be effective at short range against light/fast ships. If a Centurian is cautious enough, it should usually be able to take down a Prom, but you do not want to take it in too close. Give the Prom an excellent spin torque, so it can track targets well, and I think that might help.
Well considering there currently are no large, slow moving targets for the bomber to bomb, I don't really know what the use of it is... Sure, there are Behemoths, but if you think about it, Proms aren't any better armed than Wraiths... They can't really bomb much anyway.
Queens? Cap ships?
CP's right, in the game today there's not too many targets that Proms can really excel against, which is one of the main reasons I haven't been thinking it really needs a nerfing right now. But, we're getting there, it won't be long. Eventually, I'm hoping player controlled stations will be (at least semi-) destructable, and when an enemy Prom jumps into your Guild's station sector, you ought to be very afraid.
what I'd wish to see was the current Prom be the heavy that takes out ships like the Aggresso, the Ragnarok and the Hornet. well, everything by me takes out Hornets. those ships are what I see as the primary target of the Prom. a problem we have today though is that the SC is getting very hard to use for CtC (later in the week, this'll get as silly as trying to use the "Convoy Guardian Hornet").
but, the solution to this isn't to make everything flash around at high speed, it's to bring the combat to the heavies. slow down the transports (and do something about their armor) to make it a lot harder to do hit and run. but, we can't expect all ships to be able to be high speed chasers. that being said, the Itani specials have a max drain of 55, and are lighter so they are faster already. dropping the SC to 55 drain might be a good thing to make it a bit more long haul runner -- its targets in general have infiboost.
but, as per usual, Spellcast has already gone through most of this. we need to keep working on producing roles for the ships. the current Prom needs some help in finding that role (more armor might be the best solution I've heard), but it's hardly a unique problem. the Valk (and the more obvious Hornet) also need help. but from where I'm sitting, the changes we have seen recently at least help make ships a bit more inclined to fit roles. and at least I find that great. not every ship in this game is ment to be a dogfighter.
but, the solution to this isn't to make everything flash around at high speed, it's to bring the combat to the heavies. slow down the transports (and do something about their armor) to make it a lot harder to do hit and run. but, we can't expect all ships to be able to be high speed chasers. that being said, the Itani specials have a max drain of 55, and are lighter so they are faster already. dropping the SC to 55 drain might be a good thing to make it a bit more long haul runner -- its targets in general have infiboost.
but, as per usual, Spellcast has already gone through most of this. we need to keep working on producing roles for the ships. the current Prom needs some help in finding that role (more armor might be the best solution I've heard), but it's hardly a unique problem. the Valk (and the more obvious Hornet) also need help. but from where I'm sitting, the changes we have seen recently at least help make ships a bit more inclined to fit roles. and at least I find that great. not every ship in this game is ment to be a dogfighter.
Actually Spellcast, I still disagree with your point that its impossible to aim with small autoaim cones on the prom, frankly, its really not all that different from aiming at a rev C with a vulture with N3's. You have to be a little more deliberate, but it doesn't take that much. And if you hit a rev C with megaposis, it really doesn't take much to kill it.
Likewise, the sheer damage of a triple posi layout is enough to waste other proms quite easily.
Likewise, the sheer damage of a triple posi layout is enough to waste other proms quite easily.
The prom has already way too LITTLE turbo drain. Dropping it further would be nuts. It can already comfortably run from a valk or orion c. Tanks don't need racing stripes.
Before nerfing the Prom's turbo anymore, the CtC convoys need to be slowed down. Already Proms (and other ships) have trouble keeping up.
andreas: there are no "tank" guns in the game, so why should the prom act like a tank?
Forum Mod: No, Cap Ships aren't targets of the prom. As the game is created, you can only -defend- cap ships in the prom.
Perhaps later, but right now, no.
AND ITS RIGHT NOW THAT WE HAVE THE PROM!
Forum Mod: No, Cap Ships aren't targets of the prom. As the game is created, you can only -defend- cap ships in the prom.
Perhaps later, but right now, no.
AND ITS RIGHT NOW THAT WE HAVE THE PROM!
Part of the problem may be that we actually need (and IMO have needed for some time) nation specific analogies for the Prom and Valk for all 3 nations. Not cookie cutter me too ships like we have with the non-specials, but ships with similar (though not exactly the same characteristics) and new artwork so that there is an Itani and UIT analogy to the Prom, and a UIT and Serco analogy to the Valk. The Marauder isn't really very special anymore (with the advent of the Behemoth) and could do with a makeover. With so many variants available, and with the fairly recent reworking of the Centuar, there's no point to a Itani and Serco analogy to it. The Itani Prom analogy might be a bit more maneuverable but have less armor (than the existing Serco Prom) while the UIT Prom analogy might have expanded cargo,a slightly higher top speed, and again a bit less armor.
If analogous ships were available to all nations, I believe much of the on going "your ship is so uber nerf it" arguments might be averted.
/givemelon Community 1
If analogous ships were available to all nations, I believe much of the on going "your ship is so uber nerf it" arguments might be averted.
/givemelon Community 1
A few things:
1. I was a huge advocate of making proms worse. I think this latest update was awesome in terms of balancing the prom. The cut in thrust has proved to make the Prom pilots need a little more skill to keep up with a Centurion, but Proms are still uber. I applaud the devs for the last update. */applause*
2. The Prom, IMO, is fine the way it is for now. Building off my last point, the Prom is now a reasonable ship. I'm happy. Prom pilots are happy. The Prom shouldn't be changed anymore until there is a real purpose for the role it could be used to fit. Why make it a tank when, as many players have clearly stated, there is not place for a tank in the game *yet*. Perhaps when things such as player-contolled station, cap-ships, etc. come out, the Prom can be changed into the 'Bomber' ship it was meant to be. But for now...leave it as it is.
3. Regarding the original point on rockets (as I read it, the original post was about rockets, not the prom specifically on most parts...I don't know why this has changed into a Prom discussion...): This cap on rockets I feel was a good idea. Rockets are still usable. They still tear apart any centurion or light ship pilot. The only thing this time delay cap does is prevent ramming with a lighter, more maneuverable ship. If you could get within the rocket cap with a prom, it was too maneuverible. With these new caps, one can't turn a Hornet into a flying bomb. They are good for the game. Everyone hates a rocket-rammer.
4. Regarding your suggestions for the prom, "All I am asking is that there be a trial of a 30k armor, 530N thrust, 14spin prom (with slightly lower turbo thrust)." that would basically leave the ship the same as it is now, but with 50% more armor. The 530 thrust is not much less than it is now...and the spin torque is barely a change. A slightly lower turbo thrust may help, but who would run in a Prom anyway? Anyone in a ship that could have a chance catching up to a prom is in a ship that is much faster than a prom. Once again, leave the prom as it is!
Also, about the lowering of the drain...don't start the prom feud all over again! A lower drain would mean nearly infiniturbo...and that would re-uber the ship. If you want infiniturbo, go with the first two proms. You don't need all of 'em to have infiniturbo!
1. I was a huge advocate of making proms worse. I think this latest update was awesome in terms of balancing the prom. The cut in thrust has proved to make the Prom pilots need a little more skill to keep up with a Centurion, but Proms are still uber. I applaud the devs for the last update. */applause*
2. The Prom, IMO, is fine the way it is for now. Building off my last point, the Prom is now a reasonable ship. I'm happy. Prom pilots are happy. The Prom shouldn't be changed anymore until there is a real purpose for the role it could be used to fit. Why make it a tank when, as many players have clearly stated, there is not place for a tank in the game *yet*. Perhaps when things such as player-contolled station, cap-ships, etc. come out, the Prom can be changed into the 'Bomber' ship it was meant to be. But for now...leave it as it is.
3. Regarding the original point on rockets (as I read it, the original post was about rockets, not the prom specifically on most parts...I don't know why this has changed into a Prom discussion...): This cap on rockets I feel was a good idea. Rockets are still usable. They still tear apart any centurion or light ship pilot. The only thing this time delay cap does is prevent ramming with a lighter, more maneuverable ship. If you could get within the rocket cap with a prom, it was too maneuverible. With these new caps, one can't turn a Hornet into a flying bomb. They are good for the game. Everyone hates a rocket-rammer.
4. Regarding your suggestions for the prom, "All I am asking is that there be a trial of a 30k armor, 530N thrust, 14spin prom (with slightly lower turbo thrust)." that would basically leave the ship the same as it is now, but with 50% more armor. The 530 thrust is not much less than it is now...and the spin torque is barely a change. A slightly lower turbo thrust may help, but who would run in a Prom anyway? Anyone in a ship that could have a chance catching up to a prom is in a ship that is much faster than a prom. Once again, leave the prom as it is!
Also, about the lowering of the drain...don't start the prom feud all over again! A lower drain would mean nearly infiniturbo...and that would re-uber the ship. If you want infiniturbo, go with the first two proms. You don't need all of 'em to have infiniturbo!
Then increase the drain on the last 2 valks.