Wich brings this to the table:

An "expired" missile shouldn't vanish. It should self-destruct. Same for rocket.

EDIT:
forgot something: BUMP

>An "expired" missile shouldn't vanish. It should self-destruct. Same for rocket.

or they coud just become inert when thye run out of fuel, and then there is no point for them to not disappear

>Has anyone taken into account that in space, the missle would continue to gain
>speed until it either exploded
....
>since space has no gravitional pull to slow it down. The Warthog TD does 250 at
>max? shouldnt a missle at least match that? It should beat it by far at least double.

for one thing missiles have a top speed for the same reason ships do (top speeds are inposed on all objects that manuver under their own power). if you fire missiles whithout a target they behave like rockets which have a velocity equal to their velocity + the relative velocity of the firing platform, and as such their top speed is limited by the top speed of the firing platform.

however i agree that there should be some high-cost high performance missiles capable of intercepting and destroying light fighters efficently (1 or 2 missiles per target) now obviously those missiles would have to be "balanced" by limiting firing rates, ammunition quantities etc.

Lord Q, you say the ships and missles both have top speeds for the same reason, but you don't explicitly list the reason. I'm thinking it's game balance, because I see no other explanation.

Since missiles seem to be newtonian-driven objects, they should be able to accelerate as long as they are not being decelerated (inertial pull due to steering) or run out of fuel. When they do run out of fuel, they have no way of changing their flight vector (and rotation) after the point of running out of fuel and should just tumble off into space and disappear after a while, but not outright, in my opinion.

Well seeing as some people are beginning to re-suggest stuff that I posted in the first post....

What purpose are missiles in Vendetta supposed to serve? Are they intended to be largely defensive weapons, only used in situations to distract enemies, or are they offensive weapons to be fired outside of gun range? As they are, if you fire missiles outside of gun range, they can be quite easily outran, and are generally inaccurate as to rarely generate hits unless the target doesn't know what he's doing (like boosting straight into them). Most missile hits only occur when pilots treat the missiles like really crappy unguided rockets, and otherwise only produce a slightly annoying beeping noise.

Here's my proposal. Missiles travel upwards of 120m/s and have lifetimes of maybe 10-20 seconds. They can catch targets running away if fired soon enough, but the warheads do not arm until the missile has travelled a certain distance from the fighter. Not only that, but a "targeting" cone is projected from the nose of the ship, and there are various parameters based on the type of missile that the pilot must maintain for the missile to track properly. For instance, my "short range" missiles are slower and more maneuverable, and as thus, must be fired while the target is within that cone (not the auto-aim pipper, but the actual target) for the missiles to track. After that, the target can leave the cone, and the missiles will still follow. "Long range" missiles require that the target remain within the cone almost until impact or else the missiles will lose lock and fly off into space. Really, none of the missiles have the fuel or the maneuverability to make more than one or two passes on the target before they die.

This whole system that I've been thinking of is intended to extend missile engagement range, but not make them so uber so that they can be used to ram other fighter. Missiles are intended to be the opening shots of the battle, after which lighter fighters will probably close their range as quickly as possible so as to make further missile deployments impossible. Light fighters may not want to sacrifice a lot of weapon ports to missiles, but using them for the opening shots lets them take a bite into their target's armor. However, they cannot last at this range due to the more powerful missiles that larger ships can carry. Larger fighters, however, want to do as much damage as possible to the light fighters before they get into range.

Possible stats:

Gemini:
Capacity: 18 missiles (fires in pairs)
Delay: 1.5s
Damage: 950
Splash Radius: 25m
Detonation: Proximity (10m)
Targeting Type: 15 degree cone. Can be fired from all aspects, but accuracy greatly improves if fired from behind the target. Does not require enemy to be targeted, but rather will home on the largest viable target on firing (missile's target designated by a small pipper on top of the target box). Fire-and-forget.
Safety: 150m travel before arming
Maneuverability: high
Fuel: 5s
Velocity: 200m/s
Mass: 400kg

YellowJacket:
Capacity: 8 missiles
Delay: 1.5s
Damage: 1400
Splash Radius: 30m
Detonation: Proximity (10m)
Targeting Type: 12 degree cone. Requires target to remain inside the cone for a total of 5 seconds. Fire-and-forget.
Safety: 150m travel before arming
Maneuverability: medium
Fuel: 8s
Velocity: 180m/s
Mass: 400kg

Firefly:
Capacity: 6 missiles
Delay: 1.5s
Damage: 1000
Splash Radius: 25m
Detonation: Proximity (5m)
Targeting Type: 10 degree cone. Target must remain in cone until the missile gets within 150m, at which point it tracks on its own.
Safety: 500m travel before arming
Maneuverability: low
Fuel: 15s
Velocity: 400m/s
Mass: 400kg

Stingray:
Capacity: 4 missiles
Delay: 1.5s
Damage: 2800
Splash Radius: 40m
Detonation: Contact
Targeting Type: 7 degree cone. Target must remain in cone until the missile gets within 100m, at which point it tracks on its own.
Safety: 500m travel before arming
Maneuverability: low
Fuel: 15s
Velocity: 350m/s
Mass: 800kg

Locust Swarms:
Capacity: 40 missiles
Delay: 1.5s
Damage: 750
Splash Radius: 25m
Detonation: Proximity (25m)
Targeting Type: 20 degree cone. Target must remain in cone for 5 seconds before firing
Safety: 150m travel before arming
Maneuverability: Medium
Fuel: 15s
Velocity: 170m/s
Mass: 2500kg

Chaos Swarms:
Capacity: 40 missiles
Delay: 1.5s
Damage: 850
Splash Radius: 25m
Detonation: Proximity (25m)
Targeting Type: 18 degree cone. Target must remain in cone for 6 seconds before firing
Safety: 130m travel before arming
Maneuverability: Medium
Fuel: 15s
Velocity: 150m/s
Mass: 2500kg

The way I figure it, most missiles are generally short range (used when the target is under 1000m), so if a player tries to run away, they can usually succeed, but the short range missiles are really intended to hit on approaches, and occasionally as ranges increase before the players turn back on each other. Long range missiles have a long "safe" period (over 500m), and can either be used to support other fighters from far away, or to catch people trying to run away. While this can help pirates out, the really good powerful range missile requires a large port, so they can't catch their prey as easily with a slower ship. The other long range missile is a small port, but it can't do enough damage to kill a healthy Centaur. Yes, the two long range missiles have ranges over 3000m, but if one player is chasing another at boost, the range between the two fighters might not rise above 3000m, but the chase itself might last over that distance. Both long range missiles can catch a running Centurion, but the timing is rather tight, especially if you want to get followup shots in before it gets out of range.

I don't believe that a change like this would make every engagement a missile engagement, but rather cause people to have to find a MIX of weapons that they like. People could fly all energy, but they're at a disadvantage at long range. People could fly all missile, but they're at a disadvantage at short range. In group battles, the dynamics would completely change as players cooperate more fully in attacking and supporting roles.

The Gemini only requires a heat signature to home on when fired. If the target turns around after the missiles have been fired, the missile will continue to home, although only at 75% accuracy. The Gemini does not need to have a target designated on radar, but it searches for the largest heat signature in the targeting cone. The size of the heat signature is related to: distance to target, and whether the target is boosting or not. This target gets a pipper displayed on top of it so the pilot knows who the missile is looking at.

Also this means that people would actually start using Fireflys, YellowJackets, and Stingrays and not get laughed off the battlefield for it.

If we ever did get missiles that traveled that fast (which I am in favor of, although I think your values may be a little on the extreme side) it would be nice to see them gradually accelerate to top speed instead of shooting off at 350 m/s right off the bat.

Why would missles not reach max speed quickly in space? There is no resistance for them to have a drag?

Noooo, but there is inertia...

Actually, now that you mention it, the seekers we have in game seem to behave more as though they were in atmospheric flight than free floating in space. They have a fixed velocity and turn rate rather than a fixed acceleration.

In space there's no reason a missile couldn't turn on its tail and begin accelerating directly against its own velocity vector. Of course, that would make them substantially more difficult to dodge, which isn't a good thing...

I wonder what it would be like if missiles had a very low rate of acceleration (say... 10 m/s/s) but a near instantaneous turn rate. Dodging them once would cause them to "yo-yo" back at you very slowly...

interesting idea Phaserlight. i like it.

toshiro,
yes the core reason is game balance. as i understand it there was no top speed (or at least a very high top speed) in the original vendetta test but it was quickely found that combat was inposably difficult under those conditions.

misiles have a top speed when manuvering because the game engin now enforces top speeds on manuvering objects.

Yes, there are many things in this game that are unrealistic. But as with all space games, some realism must be sacrificed in favor of gameplay. If you want to be completely realistic, there would be no sound effects for any of the weapons in the game.

Heh. Actually, I've used YellowJackets to great effect in the past. Just ask a certain cotton-tailed toaster. (Sorry, BUNNY, but since you're one of the few people that I ever get into PvP with --because you attack me on sight 100% of the time--, I have to keep using you as an example.)

But yeah, it'd be nice to make them better for actual combat. I use Stingrays for botting occasionally, when I'm feeling newbish, but other than that, unless I'm in my missile Vult, I rarely (if ever) have them equipped.

Crip:
"Which is essentially missile spam right there. It's just tossing missiles over your shoulder and hoping that you hit something. And in that sense, you're just basically saying that you want to use swarm missiles as a "poor man's" mine launcher.

No, Swarms are definitely offensive missiles. I believe that there should be no such thing as a fire-and-forget missile (which all missiles in VO essentially are). Mines, however, are true fire-and-forget defensive weapons. You can simply drop behind you while you're turboing away. Missiles have seekers that direct them to their target with fairly high accuracy, and so should require some work before you can send them on their way."

bad argument, and I'll tell you why: For one, while you can fire a missile over you shoulder, the probability of it hitting a target is virtually nil, unless the target really is far away and has no clue what to do about that beeping. The usefulness of missiles as a weapon depends already on the angle at which you fire them; more than 90-degrees off-target, and it's not likely they'll hit (though, this still seems to be a very effective counter to missile-spamers, who seem to push their luck too far when the missiles begint to close in), firing them at a target immediately behind you or in pursuit is almost completely futile do to their turn-rate. With missiles already impaired in effectiveness at non-ideal firing angles, adding a targeting cone will not help anything, and will give players a disadvantage when countering spammers (spammer fires AT target, player is forced to boost away to avoid missiles, but then can't return fire, because they're not facing the target)

So no, they're not effective as a mine-alternative, and never should be.

they should, however, provide a defense for heavier ships like the moth from heavy ships like the ragnarok - if the moth fires on a rag then runs, the rag pilot will need to evade or die, giving the moth pilot the chance for their getaway. They should also be an acceptable defense for heavy ship pilots who face backrollers or light ships in combat and would rather fight it out than run. Swarms are a heavy defensive weapon, and they were intended as such - the devs said so.

DK:
oooh, so YOU were the one spamming my rag with yellowjackets in your vulture and then running away when you ran low on ammo... my paint job (and my patience) shall be avenged!

Cunjo: in the scenario of the Behemoth vs the Ragnarok, why can't the Behemoth simply turn to face the Rag and fire? The Moth is strong and fast enough that it could get away even after that. Case in point, I've chased a Moth around Sedina B-8 with a Rag for over 15 minutes, and only got into an optimal firing position about three times, and the Moth has more than enough armor to absorb the damage from 6 (dual swarms) swarm salvos.

You can't make a weapon that is good for every situation. If the Behemoth is fully loaded, then fighting back should be the least of their worries. They should just run away and drop mines. A concussion mine could just as easily discourage a pursuer as swarms would.

Crip:
It can, and it does. In fact, it has to, if it wants to hit the rag.

Case in point, the moth is grossly overpowered. we all know this, so why are you bringing it up?

Yes, a fully loaded moth stands a much better chance of escaping if they use mines... so they use mines. what does this have to do with swarms? nothing. how does this show that swarms need to have a restricted targeting cone? uhh... do the math.

swarms are defensive in nature BECAUSE the best (and almost failsafe) method for avoiding them is to disengage and run away from them.

If a pilot is intent on surviving the swarms, and not in any hurry to kill the other pilot, he/she will generally get away unscathed. This makes them a poor offensive weapon.

>swarms are defensive in nature BECAUSE the best (and almost failsafe) method for
>avoiding them is to disengage and run away from them.

that's true of all seekers curently. the point wasn't are they defensive weapons it's do we want them to be ofensive or defensive weapons.

if they are intended to be ofensive weapons they need to be made more difficult to escape (ie turning and running doesn't work unless the attacker aimed poorly, or you pull a mind bending escape manuver). however to prevent them from becomming unbalanced the attacker has to adhear to the restriction of keeping the target in his targeting cone.

If you want to make them offensive weapons, they can't have such a long lifespan. You could make them faster and more accurate, but they would have to die out after the first pass at the target. Either that or lose target lock after the initial pass and just drift off in a straight line. The reason they're defensive right now is due to the fact that they can come around and hit you after missing the first pass, meaning you have one more thing to worry about during a fight.

Edit: Better yet, why not leave the current missiles as they are now and add in a new offensive missile that acts somewhat like this? Either that or adjust fireflys or yellowjackets to behave in this way.

LQ:
Of course they should be defensive, at least in the varieties that currently exist. I say this almost as much because of the constant bitching and whining about people using them to fight as I do for practicality. The last thign we want to do is beef them so it's EASIER to missile-spam people. As self-guided projectiles we don't want them to grossly outperform the pilot that fires them.

As Ghost has suggested though, a variety that loses its lock after the first pass would be acceptable for an offensive missile - if you only had to shake it once, then increasing the speed could be good.

Ghost:
"Edit: Better yet, why not leave the current missiles as they are now and add in a new offensive missile that acts somewhat like this? Either that or adjust fireflys or yellowjackets to behave in this way."

Bingo.

However, I still maintain that the existing swarmer missiles need a SIGNIFICANT drop in refire rate to prevent spam&fly.

They should not be able to loose enough of them to kill a target outright in under 30 seconds, much less 5.

Ammunition restrictions need to be especially stringent on assault varieties of missiles. Kiling a ship with missiles alone should be difficult enough to deter that as a common combat solution.

IF a specialized assault variety were made, I would have no problem with requiring a sustained 'tone' target lock for firing. What I would have a problem with, are the balance issues that are likely to arise - you'd need to work around the fact that making missiles more difficult to escape is likely to detract from the game. If you want to catch and kill someone who's running away, then you should be required to have the speed and skill to do it yourself, not just a missile you can sic on them.

using missiles does NOT equel missile spamming

just making missiles that can hit the broad side of a barn does not mean the have to be dumped into space by the bucket-full. in fact the oposit is true. if one missile can kill a target provided it is aimed well, then that eliminates the need to fire 10 missiles.

a targeting cone practicly elimiantes spam and fly tactics.

now, swarms could be made into a aufensive weapon if they flew in a pattern other than a double line, did a lot more damage, and had a targeting cone restriction.
you can't spam and run because of the targeting cone, and you wouln't have to fire as many because the do more damage.

they would be useless as a defensive weapon because the best way to avoid them is to fly towards the firing ship (so it's easier to get out of the targeting cone), and you have to continualy face your target or the missiles will go inert.

using missiles does NOT equel missile spamming

Read my fucking post.

just making missiles that can hit the broad side of a barn does not mean the have to be dumped into space by the bucket-full. in fact the oposit is true. if one missile can kill a target provided it is aimed well, then that eliminates the need to fire 10 missiles.

Have you ever fought a missile-spammer?
Do they fire only one missile?
This paragraph is irrelevant as it is stupid. What's your point?

a targeting cone practicly elimiantes spam and fly tactics.

WRONG. All it does is prevent people who are attacked by spammers from firing back.

now, swarms could be made into a aufensive weapon if they flew in a pattern other than a double line, did a lot more damage, and had a targeting cone restriction.
you can't spam and run because of the targeting cone, and you wouln't have to fire as many because the do more damage.

WTF does their flight pattern have to do with the differentiation between an offensive and defensive weapon?

Did more damage? Are you on the crack rock? No! Missiles do NOT need to do more damage!

Perhaps you care to explain how having a targeting cone prevents someone from pressing the fire button repeatedly and then running away?

they would be useless as a defensive weapon because the best way to avoid them is to fly towards the firing ship (so it's easier to get out of the targeting cone), and you have to continualy face your target or the missiles will go inert.

Umm, no. That's not how missiles work, and if it was, then they'd be broken as on offensive weapon as well.

I think what he was getting at by flight pattern is if missiles were to form maybe a hexagonal net-like shape after launch they might be more effective. Although this really doesn't change them in terms of offensive or defensive.

Anyhow, the trick to controlling spamming is ammo. You really can't spam with only one tube of swarms, there's not enough shots. And if you're foolish enough to dump all your ammo from your only tube of missiles in rapid succession, well, you deserve what you get.

Bringing up a new point: If there were a missile like the ones I mentioned in my last post that were accurate, fast, and decent damage, but lost target lock after the first pass, spamming wouldn't be a problem. No matter how much ammo they had, your target wouldn't have to worry about them once they were behind him. And because they're seeking, you wouldn't be able to "net" them like you used to be able to do with flares.