Spellcast wrote: "If EVERY time you killed someone in a no fire zone, you lost a permanant 100 reputation points with that faction, the actions you describe would go away in a very large hurry."

I would believe it should be more than that 100 points, however that opinion is quite likely influenced recent happenings to the player in my guild. :)

My personal MMORPG experience started with a WWII airplane game, (way back in the day) where there were three countries against each other, and from the outset, there was no mercy given to any player, not even a newbie. So, I find myself comfortable with killing and getting killed in a game like this. Not everyone has the advantage of having that kind of beginning gaming experience to know what to expect at the beginning, or even six months into it all.

I'd think what I am trying to say here, is that if the solution is "tags" of some sort (or not), level checking penalties resulting in a loss of XP (or not), invulnerability for a time (or not), the experiences of the guild person over the past few days needs to come to a halt sooner rather than later.

I don't believe (as you say) "Players running around inveunerable because they dont wish to participate in PvP is ridiculous" is patently silly. It would give the players a way to explore the game (at least right at first), find out where the good trading and mining spots are, learn how to drive their ship, and get to see and hear tales of the inevitable dying that goes on, and then once they are above a certain level, and are more comfortable with the game, then the invulnerability is removed. Throwing someone into the deep end of the pool IS a way to learn how to swim, but it terrifies the heck out of the one being thrown in. :)

I do see where my opinion sets awkwardly with some who play the game, however, I want people to play the game, hang around for a while, and not get angry, scared, or chased off in their first beginning experiences in VO because of a station camper. Warnings to players when entering grey space (especially new players) may go a long way to helping some of these problems.

Thanks for your opinions, Regards to all.

WC

100 reputation is about 15 trade missions (more if you are above +600), or approximately 1-2 hours of work, it is also 5% of the reputation range the game encompasses, making it a significant penalty.

That would solve the problem that the guildperson had, without significantly altering the dangerous feel of grey space, as it would be applied to all stations.

As far as the deep end of the pool goes, grey space IS the deep end of the pool. If they CHOOSE go there, they WILL learn how to swim. As i said however, more information about how dangerous grey space is in game would definitely help

"one of our guild people was playing the first part of this week and was mining and carrying the ore back to the station in Odia M14"

Odia is right smack'dab in the middle of grey space.

"All the guild person wants to do is mine. No PvP, no botting, she just enjoys the heck out of mining, and that's why she subscribed to the game."

grey is not that kind of area, as alot of us try to express.

"After talking about this situation in the guild for a while, it was suggested that players need "tags"... in other words, a tag for "I'm doing PvP". Any non-tagged player would be considered a non-combatant and should be left alone by the players who choose to PvP"

if you're in grey, you have a tag on.

***

normally when a new player hops on 100 we'll answer all of their questions right on the spot, and give advice. one of these advices are to avoid grey space until you have properly leveled. we try to explain grey space as pirate inhabbited, and the main place for pvp. obviousaly if you stroll around on your navmap, hover over a system that's near odia; it'll say "pirate ect ect reported"

from the existing player base that's here; you will normally see warnings about grey space from 5 to 10 times a day to new people. we stress this for obvious reasons:

1. to warn the new player of PVP in that area.
2. avoid this kind of post.
3. try to attract more attention from high leveled players so they'll try out pvp. if a new player shows interest we'll warn them excessively on why that's such a bad idea.

you have to understand the reputation hits, ect are quite harsh in VO as it is. i don't know about you, but any form of reputation/experience hit is quite irritateing at best. leveling nervs me to a high extend, and i can vouch for the majority of pvp orientated people on that also. i'm a ctc/pvp guy, not a everquest/swg/compulsive leveler to level 900; nor are they.

PVP is strickly limited to 10 (11 if you count metana) systems without the hassel of faction loss. the remaining systems (20 of them) are nation systems, that are monitored. let me tell you that's not alot of systems. grey is literally away from everyone. they're -very- far away from nation capitols aswell. you will find players to be excessively agressive in grey due to:

1. grey is in the middle of no where.
2. while there is no ctc action going on it is hard to find a good battle, or a good 1on1.
3. grey has significantly less traffic than systems like Dau.
4. people can easily run in this time, thus people will try to catch you as fast as possible.
5. a sitting target is a gift in grey for a kill.. it's -very- uncommon. let's think here for a moment. you've been patroling grey for an hour to find a ghost town. all of a suddon you come up opon a ship that's mining in grey, and you're a pirate. what would you do?
6. there are actaul pirates in grey.
7. you're restricted to the main 8 systems without faction loss, and hopefully no experience point loss.
8. grey is THE place to be for pvp.
9. all space is serco space.. .. wait - scatch that.. :P

all in all we try to warn new players about grey. it is deffinitly not a friendly place. it's a war zone that's labled right on your navmap. it is not our fault your friend didn't read the pirate part in odia's description.

Sputnik:

as I see it the issue here isn't really if grey space is dangerous or not(and it is), its that players are being killed right next to a station because there is no real penalty for doing so, unless that player has managed to work thier reputation up to +600. Particularly if a player is homed there, it can become very aggrivating. The old suggestion to "log off and come back another time" doesn't apply anymore because the devs are now charging for the game.

I would think that violating a no-fire rule to the extent that you kill someone inside the 1000 Meter radius would have a more significant penalty than just causing that person damage. Keep in mind that from the perspective of the buisnesses inside the station, customers being killed outside the docking bays would be a very undesirable thing.

Thus my suggestion for a 100 point faction loss if you were to do so. this loss would be in addition to any other faction/XP penalties you might incurr for killing that player. So if you kill a new player, inside his nation's capital, next to the station, you would have 3 penalties, XP for killing a noob. REputation for killing a faction protected player, reputation for blatant violation of the no-fire zone.

If coupled with a sharp increase in the XP penalty for killing a new player and a limiting of that penalty to the new players nation claimed systems, I think that new players could feel safer, and all players would be able to avoid being stationcamped. Some built in, part of the game, warnings about grey space would also help. While what you said is true, not all new players ever go to 100. some of them just take off and explore.

spellcast, i do agree with you on the nation specific penalties.

for nation specific systems this would lower the hit and run at stations, but would also irritate players within grey space (they made corvus stations a no fire zone, they might aim to make grey the same). there is also the itani station in endras I2, which is a big pain in ctc as it is. i am all for for making nation space more safer, but i am agesn't any suggestion to make grey safer than it is now.

as evident here http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/3/8486 people want grey to be as dangerus, as it was once before.

you'll get no argument from me with a warning flashing on a new player's hud when they enter a grey system.

when i originally read this entire thread and saw a grey space complaint i sort of paniced and wrote my first post in a hurry. i am concerned about PVP in vendetta at the rate VO is going.

in my prespective i'm seeing PVP to be shut out more patch by patch. this is mainly due to the new rebalence patch which gives traders the power to run from any fighter craft that does not have the capability to infiniboost. there is also the fact swarm missiles are tweaked, and the corvus station's no fire zones.

You get a 1 point XP faction loss for violating ANY no fire zone that leads to a kill, 50 to 100 would be better.. ..In regards to Corvus, i think the current system is fine, except they even have a no fire zone (should be removed IMHO). The defence force in the rest of the galaxy however does need beefing up. See thread http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/3/7794#91429 <--- He is not the only one who can pull off a kill outside a station, (no, it was not n00b killing, or griefing, or station camping, one was proof i could to a vet, the others were grey or Itani ctcers) while already swamped with defence bots.

I agree with Spellcast here, there should be a much bigger warning when entering grey space for the first time, IE n00b trader heads for Latos for the first time from Azek, as he is jumping to the final Worm Hole in Azek, there is a message displayed on the screen, along the lines of, *Arrrr, there be pirates here! You are leaving %nation% guarded space, you should be advised blah blah*...

But enough with the *Grey should be safe for some people*? Do we want to play a game here? or just another interactive screensaver?....

A. what does the itani station in edras have to do with people being stationcamped? how would having an actual penalty for killing someone inside a no-fire area, even in grey-space, make ctc any harder?

I can see removing the corvus no-fire area, which would also remove the 100 point rep penalty at corvus stations if it were added. But some of the stations in grey space are run by corporations. such a station would, and logically should, want to provide a small oasis of order. I dont propose that the penalty be for killing someone inside the same sector as that station, just for killing them INSIDE the no-fire zone. The temp-KOS was supposed to provide that oasis, but its not working, so a slightly more penalizing method needs to be used.

B. The heavy ships have yet to be rebalanced, and I trust that the devs will make them less able to flee from combat, (lower top turbo speed?), so right now we cant say that the changes to the light fighters have permanantly reduced PvP, because we are only looking at half of the changes.

And again, i agree with Spellcast, If people read my post, i requested *corvus* NFZ be removed, its obvious that sub-factions in dangerous areas would provide a level of protection for traders ect.

Im kinda looking forward to the big ships being rebalanced.