Forums » Suggestions
First Impressions
DISCLAIMER: I'm a relative n00b at this game so take these comments with a grain of salt. I've also been involved in a very extensive and complicated Freelancer mod, so that will color my opinions here.
COMBAT:
So far I've found the basic combat (or botting, as some people seem to call it) appallingly dull. I was able to hop out in the starter ship and obliterate 69 DenTek collectors in about two hours without being in any real danger. All I needed to do was side-strafe in physics mode and the AI seemed to be incapable of hitting me. I understand that you don't want to make combat too hard for the n00bs, but this seemed to be more of a chore than anything else. Bottom line... boring start = not much fun. You won't keep players here that are looking for a bit of excitement and who don't have the patience to build up their license levels.
Its also a bit unrealistic to have bots continually spawning in a sector you are killing stuff in. Every time I killed one bot, another would appear, which let me just sit there killing things. No reason to move around and explore. Perhaps the bots should respawn at a slower rate (like a new one every 10 minutes). That way you could actually clear out a sector, perhaps do some mining or prospecting before some more bots showed up. It would also encourage people to explore more if they are looking for more bots to kill.
TRADING:
The trading model seems pretty good. Better than standard Freelancer by a long shot. The problems I encountered so far is that trading in the home systems appears to be completely risk free. It seems that careful selection of your route can allow you to run missions without any real danger. I've always found that trading is most fun when there is an element of danger in it. NPC Pirate attacks within controlled space should be a possibility.
MINING:
I really like the mining model. This is pretty clever and well done. There are a few things that don't seem to quite right tho. 1) as a n00b, you can really only mine around bases as all the other sectors seem to be infested with collector bots. Again, this seems to be risk free and fairly boring. Some sectors should be bot free, or at least bot free for variable periods of time. Maybe some sectors could be botless for an hour or two per day. 2) the temperature physics don't seem quite right. Mostly with the starting temperature. Most roids seem to start at 10K, but ones closer to the sun and made of darker materials should be warmer. I can't tell if the heat capacity of the roids depends on their composition, but it should. 3) I've heated an ice crystal above the melting point of water and nothing happened. Perhaps those roids should break up, or explode.
SHIPS:
Couple of gripes here. I've started a character as Itani, Serco, and UIT. The game feels essentially the same in all cases, except with regard to your starting location. If the Serco and Itani have been at war for so long, I find it unlikely that they would use technology that is so similar in nature. At the very least, making technology that is side specific adds to the atmosphere of the game even if they are functionally identical. I do like the ability to own multiple ships, but it really ought to be possible to transport addons in one's cargo hold.
Maybe I haven't played with the variants enough, but they don't seem to be balanced properly. The Centurion for example... there is a cargo transport variant that is capable of higher speeds than the basic version. It seems to me that the trade off for larger cargo capacity should be a reduced speed.
I also miss the ability to blow off wings, destroy weapons, and lose guns that was available in Freelancer.
One thing that freelancer mods have always done is fall into the 'bigger is better' mindset. You just keep progressing until you can get into that heavy fighter and blow up everything in your path. The mod I have been working on actually goes to great length to make sure that every ship has a role and can be used effectively for certain tasks. For instance, light fighters are good for going after pirates, but heavy fighters get pummeled because they are big, slow targets that have trouble hitting those zippy pirates. Heavy fighters are much more effective at cap ship hunting because they can mount heavy weapons that can take down large slow-moving ships. We've tried really hard to make sure there isn't an 'uber' ships/gun in the game. You see a wider variety of ships being used by players, and its more fun to tweak your loadout.
ATMOSPHERE:
The last week or so that I have been playing I have encountered only a couple of other players. In fact, it is incredibly easy to zip right by another player without even knowing they are there. The in-flight chat controls need some work to make them easy to use... same with the grouping controls. Bottom line is that there are too many places that players can be, so the density tends to be low. The freelancer Mod I am working on actually REMOVED most of the systems and set it up with only 3 large systems. This has had the effect of dramatically increasing player interaction, and has encouraged teamwork and PvP.
The game feels like a series of small areas strung together. I really don't get a sense of being in open space. It's far too easy to jump halfway across the known universe in just a few minutes of travel time.
I've also noticed a distinct lack of NPC activity in the home systems. I would have expected to see a lot more trade convoys, police & military patrols, NPC miners, and general civilian traffic. Maybe I'm looking in the wrong spots, but I would expect some of these things to be very common in the home systems. For two nations at war, Itani and Serco space is remarkably quiet.
OVERALL:
My overall impression is that the game has potential but still needs some work. If you want to attract and keep players, the game needs to be engaging on multiple levels. It's not there yet. I'll post more after I've had a chance to play the game more in depth. Remember that this game will attract players based on their first impression. If it isn't interesting/exciting you won't get too many to stick around.
COMBAT:
So far I've found the basic combat (or botting, as some people seem to call it) appallingly dull. I was able to hop out in the starter ship and obliterate 69 DenTek collectors in about two hours without being in any real danger. All I needed to do was side-strafe in physics mode and the AI seemed to be incapable of hitting me. I understand that you don't want to make combat too hard for the n00bs, but this seemed to be more of a chore than anything else. Bottom line... boring start = not much fun. You won't keep players here that are looking for a bit of excitement and who don't have the patience to build up their license levels.
Its also a bit unrealistic to have bots continually spawning in a sector you are killing stuff in. Every time I killed one bot, another would appear, which let me just sit there killing things. No reason to move around and explore. Perhaps the bots should respawn at a slower rate (like a new one every 10 minutes). That way you could actually clear out a sector, perhaps do some mining or prospecting before some more bots showed up. It would also encourage people to explore more if they are looking for more bots to kill.
TRADING:
The trading model seems pretty good. Better than standard Freelancer by a long shot. The problems I encountered so far is that trading in the home systems appears to be completely risk free. It seems that careful selection of your route can allow you to run missions without any real danger. I've always found that trading is most fun when there is an element of danger in it. NPC Pirate attacks within controlled space should be a possibility.
MINING:
I really like the mining model. This is pretty clever and well done. There are a few things that don't seem to quite right tho. 1) as a n00b, you can really only mine around bases as all the other sectors seem to be infested with collector bots. Again, this seems to be risk free and fairly boring. Some sectors should be bot free, or at least bot free for variable periods of time. Maybe some sectors could be botless for an hour or two per day. 2) the temperature physics don't seem quite right. Mostly with the starting temperature. Most roids seem to start at 10K, but ones closer to the sun and made of darker materials should be warmer. I can't tell if the heat capacity of the roids depends on their composition, but it should. 3) I've heated an ice crystal above the melting point of water and nothing happened. Perhaps those roids should break up, or explode.
SHIPS:
Couple of gripes here. I've started a character as Itani, Serco, and UIT. The game feels essentially the same in all cases, except with regard to your starting location. If the Serco and Itani have been at war for so long, I find it unlikely that they would use technology that is so similar in nature. At the very least, making technology that is side specific adds to the atmosphere of the game even if they are functionally identical. I do like the ability to own multiple ships, but it really ought to be possible to transport addons in one's cargo hold.
Maybe I haven't played with the variants enough, but they don't seem to be balanced properly. The Centurion for example... there is a cargo transport variant that is capable of higher speeds than the basic version. It seems to me that the trade off for larger cargo capacity should be a reduced speed.
I also miss the ability to blow off wings, destroy weapons, and lose guns that was available in Freelancer.
One thing that freelancer mods have always done is fall into the 'bigger is better' mindset. You just keep progressing until you can get into that heavy fighter and blow up everything in your path. The mod I have been working on actually goes to great length to make sure that every ship has a role and can be used effectively for certain tasks. For instance, light fighters are good for going after pirates, but heavy fighters get pummeled because they are big, slow targets that have trouble hitting those zippy pirates. Heavy fighters are much more effective at cap ship hunting because they can mount heavy weapons that can take down large slow-moving ships. We've tried really hard to make sure there isn't an 'uber' ships/gun in the game. You see a wider variety of ships being used by players, and its more fun to tweak your loadout.
ATMOSPHERE:
The last week or so that I have been playing I have encountered only a couple of other players. In fact, it is incredibly easy to zip right by another player without even knowing they are there. The in-flight chat controls need some work to make them easy to use... same with the grouping controls. Bottom line is that there are too many places that players can be, so the density tends to be low. The freelancer Mod I am working on actually REMOVED most of the systems and set it up with only 3 large systems. This has had the effect of dramatically increasing player interaction, and has encouraged teamwork and PvP.
The game feels like a series of small areas strung together. I really don't get a sense of being in open space. It's far too easy to jump halfway across the known universe in just a few minutes of travel time.
I've also noticed a distinct lack of NPC activity in the home systems. I would have expected to see a lot more trade convoys, police & military patrols, NPC miners, and general civilian traffic. Maybe I'm looking in the wrong spots, but I would expect some of these things to be very common in the home systems. For two nations at war, Itani and Serco space is remarkably quiet.
OVERALL:
My overall impression is that the game has potential but still needs some work. If you want to attract and keep players, the game needs to be engaging on multiple levels. It's not there yet. I'll post more after I've had a chance to play the game more in depth. Remember that this game will attract players based on their first impression. If it isn't interesting/exciting you won't get too many to stick around.
No offense meant, but I'm gonna move this to suggestions. Good ideas and critiques all around, presented well.
Okey, so you think beginner combat is incredibly easy. What makes your opinion any more valuable than that of a person that thinks that beginner combat is way too hard?
@genka...
Never said mine was more valuable. People have been asking for feedback and this is my opinion. This post was intended to be constructive criticism, please read it as such.
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I personally found combat unsatisfying because there was a single strategy that let me defeat the AI with virtually zero risk. Sure some people will have a hard time with it at first. Took me a while to figure it out, but I see this as an 'exploit'.
What I would like to see is a system where you can get yourself blown up if you get complacent. The basic combat does not seem to offer that.. at least not to me.
I suppose I should modify my disclaimer... I'm probably a bit more hard-core than your average n00b.
Never said mine was more valuable. People have been asking for feedback and this is my opinion. This post was intended to be constructive criticism, please read it as such.
---
I personally found combat unsatisfying because there was a single strategy that let me defeat the AI with virtually zero risk. Sure some people will have a hard time with it at first. Took me a while to figure it out, but I see this as an 'exploit'.
What I would like to see is a system where you can get yourself blown up if you get complacent. The basic combat does not seem to offer that.. at least not to me.
I suppose I should modify my disclaimer... I'm probably a bit more hard-core than your average n00b.
COMBAT:
So far I've found the basic combat (or botting, as some people seem to call it) appallingly dull. I was able to hop out in the starter ship and obliterate 69 DenTek collectors in about two hours without being in any real danger.--"
Yes, the beginner combat is fairly simple and chorelike for just about anyone who figures out the strafe keys. I do suggest looking for some aretemis collectors, as they are a bit harder.
"-- Perhaps the bots should respawn at a slower rate (like a new one every 10 minutes). That way you could actually clear out a sector, perhaps do some mining or prospecting before some more bots showed up. It would also encourage people to explore more if they are looking for more bots to kill.--"
This idea i like, perhaps every 6 minutes a new bot would spawn unless there were not bots left in the sector, at which point 15 minutes from the time the last bot was killed all the bots would return. This would make it much harder for a single person to clear out a sector (for mining/prospecting for instance), and give some point to getting together a group of botters.
On your comments about trading, I both agree and I dont. There is some justification for nation space being "safe" to trade in. The idea is for nation space to be mostly safe, and grey space to be a more lucrative, but significantly more dangerous area.
I personally would like to see the ion storms occur anywhere in a system, instead of just the asteroid sectors, which would give PC pirates somewhere to hang out if they found a storm in a non-bot sector.
"--2) the temperature physics don't seem quite right. Mostly with the starting temperature. Most roids seem to start at 10K, but ones closer to the sun and made of darker materials should be warmer. I can't tell if the heat capacity of the roids depends on their composition, but it should. 3) I've heated an ice crystal above the melting point of water and nothing happened. Perhaps those roids should break up, or explode. --"
The temperature physics could be ultra realistic, But IMO it wouldnt add a whole lot to the game. One thing i would like to see that would be even less realistic however is for all asteroids in station or Wormhole sectors to start at around 75K, to encourage people to look elsewhere for asteroids to mine. If coupled with your idea for being able to clear a sector of bots temporaily, I think it would add a lot to gameplay.
Destroyable asteroids are a bad idea in a MMO, because its a persistant universe for everyone, and eventually you would have someone go around and blow up all the asteroids just becasue they could. Then you have to find a way to put them back, IMO its better to just have them indestructable, tho perhaps the efficiency of mining beams could degrade much faster at higher and higher temperatures, so that people would be less inclined to heat a asteroid that hot.
On your comments about the ship variants, AMEN. Actually ship variants and balance tweaks are the current item the devs are working on i believe. The ships themselves havent changed a lot in about a year or so, all the way back in the alpha. Getting the universe functional and some mission content has taken priority.
The NPC traffic comes and goes, I think they are still working some bugs out of it, because we get a lot of NPC traders every so often, then they gradually dissapear as a few days pass. NPC miners should be possible (after all the collectors do it) And they would provide a perfect reason for all the asteroids around stations / wormholes to be heated to about 75K.
In general thank you for your comments, A well thought out and honest critique of the game as it stands now, and you do see the potential, which is what has kept me here through 2 years of alpha test. (ahh if you new players could have seen how far this game has come... and its still getting better)
on the whole the framework has finally been finsihed, and the content is coming.
So far I've found the basic combat (or botting, as some people seem to call it) appallingly dull. I was able to hop out in the starter ship and obliterate 69 DenTek collectors in about two hours without being in any real danger.--"
Yes, the beginner combat is fairly simple and chorelike for just about anyone who figures out the strafe keys. I do suggest looking for some aretemis collectors, as they are a bit harder.
"-- Perhaps the bots should respawn at a slower rate (like a new one every 10 minutes). That way you could actually clear out a sector, perhaps do some mining or prospecting before some more bots showed up. It would also encourage people to explore more if they are looking for more bots to kill.--"
This idea i like, perhaps every 6 minutes a new bot would spawn unless there were not bots left in the sector, at which point 15 minutes from the time the last bot was killed all the bots would return. This would make it much harder for a single person to clear out a sector (for mining/prospecting for instance), and give some point to getting together a group of botters.
On your comments about trading, I both agree and I dont. There is some justification for nation space being "safe" to trade in. The idea is for nation space to be mostly safe, and grey space to be a more lucrative, but significantly more dangerous area.
I personally would like to see the ion storms occur anywhere in a system, instead of just the asteroid sectors, which would give PC pirates somewhere to hang out if they found a storm in a non-bot sector.
"--2) the temperature physics don't seem quite right. Mostly with the starting temperature. Most roids seem to start at 10K, but ones closer to the sun and made of darker materials should be warmer. I can't tell if the heat capacity of the roids depends on their composition, but it should. 3) I've heated an ice crystal above the melting point of water and nothing happened. Perhaps those roids should break up, or explode. --"
The temperature physics could be ultra realistic, But IMO it wouldnt add a whole lot to the game. One thing i would like to see that would be even less realistic however is for all asteroids in station or Wormhole sectors to start at around 75K, to encourage people to look elsewhere for asteroids to mine. If coupled with your idea for being able to clear a sector of bots temporaily, I think it would add a lot to gameplay.
Destroyable asteroids are a bad idea in a MMO, because its a persistant universe for everyone, and eventually you would have someone go around and blow up all the asteroids just becasue they could. Then you have to find a way to put them back, IMO its better to just have them indestructable, tho perhaps the efficiency of mining beams could degrade much faster at higher and higher temperatures, so that people would be less inclined to heat a asteroid that hot.
On your comments about the ship variants, AMEN. Actually ship variants and balance tweaks are the current item the devs are working on i believe. The ships themselves havent changed a lot in about a year or so, all the way back in the alpha. Getting the universe functional and some mission content has taken priority.
The NPC traffic comes and goes, I think they are still working some bugs out of it, because we get a lot of NPC traders every so often, then they gradually dissapear as a few days pass. NPC miners should be possible (after all the collectors do it) And they would provide a perfect reason for all the asteroids around stations / wormholes to be heated to about 75K.
In general thank you for your comments, A well thought out and honest critique of the game as it stands now, and you do see the potential, which is what has kept me here through 2 years of alpha test. (ahh if you new players could have seen how far this game has come... and its still getting better)
on the whole the framework has finally been finsihed, and the content is coming.
[Deleted. Poster should consider himself warned] -Forum Mod
Genka is the resident troll. Ignore him.
On the whole I agree. As you may be aware, the devs are only four guys who made the whole thing on their own budget, and so lack the resources of a traditional studio with a big-name publisher. This explains most of the lacking content and/or balance issues - they simply don't have the time or people to correct everything as quickly as gamers have come to expect.
Most of us stick around because we know that eventually the game will get there. Wouldn't hurt to do the same ;)
On the whole I agree. As you may be aware, the devs are only four guys who made the whole thing on their own budget, and so lack the resources of a traditional studio with a big-name publisher. This explains most of the lacking content and/or balance issues - they simply don't have the time or people to correct everything as quickly as gamers have come to expect.
Most of us stick around because we know that eventually the game will get there. Wouldn't hurt to do the same ;)
Furious
Aside from NPC pirates in protected space (gray space ok, protected space... no. only if there are enough NPC guards to kill them...), and mining (You can mine anywhere as a noob, if dentek collectors are so easy to kill, go grab a wraith with 1 gun and 1 mining beam and mine a bot sector.. or go to wormholes and mine, or find an unmarked bot-free asteroid sector, or hire an escort...)
I agree with everything you said.
Aside from NPC pirates in protected space (gray space ok, protected space... no. only if there are enough NPC guards to kill them...), and mining (You can mine anywhere as a noob, if dentek collectors are so easy to kill, go grab a wraith with 1 gun and 1 mining beam and mine a bot sector.. or go to wormholes and mine, or find an unmarked bot-free asteroid sector, or hire an escort...)
I agree with everything you said.
Flames and other rude behaviour will not be tolerated.
no place for trolls in a forum...
/furious
Im only going to comment about the ships, I like the most part of it but I disagree with giving any ship its role. Since not everybody thinks or finds that in one role one ship is better then another. Like I stated so many times, I prefer less agility but higher hps, while other people prefer ships with high hps but low agility and even others the other option. Not to mention that your opinion about ships makes it unable to let skill have an influence on the outcome in stead we get a leaf-rock- scissor game(some sort of RTS). And last time I checked I noticed that the advertisments and description was an RPG - FPS mmo, and not an RTS - RPG - FPS MMO hybrid.
Because of that I think that all ships big or small should be able to fulfill the same role but with a lesser degree of effectivity. But not a clear cut x takes down y, while y takes down z and z has no problems in taking down x...
no place for trolls in a forum...
/furious
Im only going to comment about the ships, I like the most part of it but I disagree with giving any ship its role. Since not everybody thinks or finds that in one role one ship is better then another. Like I stated so many times, I prefer less agility but higher hps, while other people prefer ships with high hps but low agility and even others the other option. Not to mention that your opinion about ships makes it unable to let skill have an influence on the outcome in stead we get a leaf-rock- scissor game(some sort of RTS). And last time I checked I noticed that the advertisments and description was an RPG - FPS mmo, and not an RTS - RPG - FPS MMO hybrid.
Because of that I think that all ships big or small should be able to fulfill the same role but with a lesser degree of effectivity. But not a clear cut x takes down y, while y takes down z and z has no problems in taking down x...
Yes, please ignore the troll. Anyhow...
I like the idea of asteroids having different temperatures. It's little and largely inconsequential, but it's details like that that make a universe feel more real, which is exactly what the Vendetta universe needs. That's a small change that I believe could be implemented entirely on the server side, but that's more a Dev question.
I LOVE the idea of being able to clear out a sector completely. Perhaps this could be implemented with a more complicated hive queen bot. One that actually produces bots which then warp to their destinations. Destroy a bot, and it takes some amount of time to replace. Oruns would come out in 15 seconds, tycorps 60, but some guardians would take upwards of a minute and a half to produce. destroy the hive queen, and production of bots goes down completely for something like an hour, allowing you to clear out a sector and mine to your heart's content.
Ship variants: Agreed, there needs to be a completely different line of equivalent (or largely so) ships for each nation.
I like the idea of asteroids having different temperatures. It's little and largely inconsequential, but it's details like that that make a universe feel more real, which is exactly what the Vendetta universe needs. That's a small change that I believe could be implemented entirely on the server side, but that's more a Dev question.
I LOVE the idea of being able to clear out a sector completely. Perhaps this could be implemented with a more complicated hive queen bot. One that actually produces bots which then warp to their destinations. Destroy a bot, and it takes some amount of time to replace. Oruns would come out in 15 seconds, tycorps 60, but some guardians would take upwards of a minute and a half to produce. destroy the hive queen, and production of bots goes down completely for something like an hour, allowing you to clear out a sector and mine to your heart's content.
Ship variants: Agreed, there needs to be a completely different line of equivalent (or largely so) ships for each nation.
Good writeup. I want to disagree with two things, and get behind a third:
1. I disagree that beginner combat is boring compared to Freelancer. The combat AI of Freelancer is about the worst ever made. Beginner combat in Freelancer does not even require you to dodge. I think VO's basic combat is just about right.
2. I disagree that trading is more fun when NPC pirates jump you. Trading in Freelancer is an absolute chore because every few seconds some impossibly inept group of Liberty Rogues interrupts your travel. What makes trading exciting is -player- pirates, which leads to the next point...
3. I agree that there's too much vacant space in VO. Solar systems would be much more interesting if they had far fewer sectors but included a bigger/more diverse area of system territory.
1. I disagree that beginner combat is boring compared to Freelancer. The combat AI of Freelancer is about the worst ever made. Beginner combat in Freelancer does not even require you to dodge. I think VO's basic combat is just about right.
2. I disagree that trading is more fun when NPC pirates jump you. Trading in Freelancer is an absolute chore because every few seconds some impossibly inept group of Liberty Rogues interrupts your travel. What makes trading exciting is -player- pirates, which leads to the next point...
3. I agree that there's too much vacant space in VO. Solar systems would be much more interesting if they had far fewer sectors but included a bigger/more diverse area of system territory.
Well let me clarify a bit. The beginner combat in vanilla freelancer aint that great either, but the ships do try to do some maneuvers, etc... Frankly I can't remember how bad it was because that was one of the first things we revamped when we did our mod. The NPC ship AI is now quite capable of trashing you if you let your guard down. What I like about it is the heightened sense of tension. We set up the mod such that the lowest level ship with the weakest guns could still kill the biggest fighter with the heaviest weapons/shields if they weren't careful. Because of the way this works out, PvP is much more a matter of skill than who owns the biggest ship.
Which brings me to NPC pirates... they don't have to be inept. Properly programmed they can be quite dangerous and still be flexible enough to be bought off by dumping your cargo. I haven't really encountered the VO NPC pirates, so I can't say much about them really.
I've actually seen the ship specialization system in action and it works better than you might think. It makes you think a little more strategically and requires you to adapt your tactics too. There is a place for multi-role ships, but they should not be as good in any of those roles as a ship designed for that purpose.
We routinely get players running trade missions with a couple of escorts that do quite well. In this case the thing to do is alter your tactics. Stopping to kill everything in your path is not conducive to the survival of a trader. The escorts just clear a path, let him get going, and then leave.
We also get squads of players getting together to take down cap ships (which are a lot harder than the Vanilla FL ones, so it actually takes teamwork).
Combined with the ability to own multiple ships, some ship specialization could actually be quite fun.
Which brings me to NPC pirates... they don't have to be inept. Properly programmed they can be quite dangerous and still be flexible enough to be bought off by dumping your cargo. I haven't really encountered the VO NPC pirates, so I can't say much about them really.
I've actually seen the ship specialization system in action and it works better than you might think. It makes you think a little more strategically and requires you to adapt your tactics too. There is a place for multi-role ships, but they should not be as good in any of those roles as a ship designed for that purpose.
We routinely get players running trade missions with a couple of escorts that do quite well. In this case the thing to do is alter your tactics. Stopping to kill everything in your path is not conducive to the survival of a trader. The escorts just clear a path, let him get going, and then leave.
We also get squads of players getting together to take down cap ships (which are a lot harder than the Vanilla FL ones, so it actually takes teamwork).
Combined with the ability to own multiple ships, some ship specialization could actually be quite fun.