I'm a fairly new player who has just mad it through the first four combat levels and I have a sugestion to smooth out the learning curve a little. My experience with botting is that I was able to handle the Orun collectors fairly easily, but I had a little trouble movving through the more difficult collector bots (Dentek, artimus, etc.), but I found the curve to be about right, i.e I died a couple of timed at first, but with practice I got the hang of it and could kill more and more bots with out repairs.

Eventually I finished Basic Combat Training and moved on to advanced. This is when I hit a wall. I could kill as many collectors as I wanted, but I kept on getting wasted by Apu-tek 5's. This is the point where the game got very frustrating, but I persivered and made some trips to Corvus Prime for some more hefty weapons. Eventually I went up a couple of levels and got access to better weapons and now I can take on guardian bots. Now I realize that I've gotten better at fighting, but I really think the biggest difference was having better equipment (this is because when I did go up a level and got better equipment I found that I could stay in system much longer).

My suggestions is to address this are;

(a) instead of making the jump from Begginer to Advanced combat training the jump from collector bots to guardian bots, keep some of the higher level collector bots active on the kill list for an extra licence level, or...

(b) create an intermedite combat training for levels 2&3 which would entail some of the higher level collctor bots and some of the lower level guardian bots.

Also it might be kind of cool if the missions had a shopping list like kill 10 denteck collectors, 5 artimus collector, 2 transports, 2 Apu-tek 5's and maybe increase the bonus points for such larger missions.

All in all I do love the game, I think you guys are doing a great job. I agree that there are still some ballencing issues and tweeking left to be done, but far less than the posts I've read seem to indicate. Keep up the good work.

I've gotten advanced missions before (early in my carreer) in which Artemis Collectors were on the list.

In any event, I recently took out Protus Assaults with ion blasters , so its not just the equipment which is at issue. Granted, I'd been doing this on and off for about two years before playing the release version...

I personally think most of the bots have too many hull points (and probably give too much XP). Not because they are too difficult, because for the most part, they aren't. But because they are rather tedious to kill (even if you aren't using ion blasters). I'm one of those DM's that thinks that letting your players swipe off the heads of 5 orcs at once is often a good thing, because alot of gamers do like having thier ego appealed too. It doesn't hurt to let them feel heroic. One can always find ways to challenge players if you need to.

Right now I find myself most enjoying fighting Fenrus-18's, because although they are basically exactly the same as all the other bots, they go down faster (as a consequence of having such big hulls) so the action seems more fast paced and satisfying.

I just want to point out that I have just started playing Vensetta, so I didn't have the benefit of the amount of experience that the players who have been playing the Beta have had. I found that having to figure out how to make the jump to guardian bots, coupled with the lack of weapons/battery and still experimenting with different weapons very difficult. I simply think that if new players have access to better weapons before having to take on the guardian bots it might make the game a little less frustrating for new players.

Yeah, this is really offputting.

There is a real wall for beginners here, and it's in the worst possible time - just when a new player starts killing collector bots, and gaining XP, and is thinking, "hey, I want to pay for this cool game."

The wall is when you stop getting bonuses for the collector bots - so your level remains low. Because your level is low, you're not eligible to buy the hardware required to take on the guardian bots because of license issues. Even though you have more than enough money to buy the ships.

So this begins a very tedious process where you can't fight the bots that will give you XP, without dying - but you get such a small bonus from hunting the bots you can kill - that you have to kill hundreds to get to the next level. Once you get that license, you can get some decent weapons and ships.

I just think it's a terrible place to put such a roadblock to progress. The game should entice and encourage new players, not frustrate and alienate them. It's hard enough to get help for new players, without having the game dynamics fighting you at the same time.

I can definitely see where you two are coming from... I've been saying for a while now that there really should be some more work put into the opening game. In particular I would like to see more intro missions, preferrably a whole string of intro missions that put the player at license level 1/1/1/1/1 and left them feeling immersed in the Vendetta universe. But that is slightly off topic. I could also see the benefit of having an intermediate level combat mission implemented, but without introducing new types of bots there is always going to be that jump from taking on collectors to taking on assaults and guardians.

Perhaps there could be a mission that sent progressively tougher and tougher bots after you in a series of waves. Something like:
Wave 1: 2 Orun collectors
Wave 2: 1 Orun collector, 1 Dentek collector
Wave 3: 2 Dentek collectors
Wave 4: 3 Kannik collectors
Wave 5: 2 Kannik collectors, 2 Dentek collectors
Wave 6: 2 Artemis collectors
Wave 7: 3 orun collectors, 1 artemis collector
Wave 8: 1 tycorp assault
Wave 9: 1 kannik collector, 1 dentek collector, 1 tycorp assault
Wave 10: 1 dentek assault
Wave 11: 1 tycorp assault, 1 dentek assault
Wave 12: 1 Aputech-5 guardian

...you get the picture. As long as you kept killing the bots in whatever sector you were in they would keep coming after you in waves, each one slightly tougher than the next. The mission would end when you warped out of the sector.

I ranted about this forever in this thread:

http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/1/7074#90604

None of the alpha/beta vets think this problem exists. There are ways around the "wall" but they require some trying (and the knowledge that you can go get better stuff at a Corvus station). Once you get over the hump, everything seems OK again.

I've come to believe one of the biggest problems is the distribution of bots in the universe. It seems like about 10% of asteroid fields are populated by low-level collectors, and about 5% of fields have high-level collectors. All the rest, from a newbie's perspective, are filled with scary, unkillable assault bots. I'd suggest a much, much smoother distribution across the universe. Also a much *thinner* distribution -- there are too many bots about, IMO. Most asteroid fields are positively choked with bots.

Oh, I do agree that the problem exists; I don't think access to better equipment is the answer, but a class of bots which are midway in difficulty between Abu-5's and Artemis Collectors would be welcome.

The real problem is that new players don't realize the simple tricks you can use to evade bot fire, and don't know how to get out of trouble when they get flanked. So, they don't have time to practice their accuracy, and so they are completely outclassed. Bots may be stupid but they are very accurate and have very good reflexes. Versus Artemis Collectors - which don't dodge - you don't need to be all that accurate, so they've learned almost nothing useful about how to actually fight when they first face a bot that does dodge and uses pretty good tactics.

What is needed is something like unescorted transports of various sorts, which make easy targets but which don't have the sort of firepower of a Fenrus-18 but do use the better AI. This would give new players a chance to earn the ropes without needing the crutch of elite equipment.

And as I said, most of the bots could use to have the hull points lowered abit. I'd rather players be challenged by facing more bots than facing tougher bots. I feel that would be more exciting. Ideally 'tougher' bots mean smarter, so alot of the bots stats are fudged to make up for thier current stupidity.

The other thing is that Mentor system is there for a reason. Use it. Almost all the Vets are more than willing to teach for the simple reason that they want you to keep playing the game.

I think that that is one of the problems with the Vets is once you see how to do it it seems easy. Your only a virgin once and I think the players who have been around longer don't see a problem is that they already are quite skilled. If I wanted to start a new character, I think I wouldn't have as much of a problem because I now know how to fight. The reason I'm mentioning this now is that I've reached a point where I can look back and reflect on a period where the game got very frustrating for me and it seems that other new players have felt the same way. I think the solution is a simple little tweek and the new players will have a much more enjoyeble experience.

As a newcomer I did hit that wall. I asked for advice on how to kill those pesky guardians, and was told to strafe+roll.

I took my best Wraith, some light weapons, and lo and behold I did strafe + roll against apu5s.

First try, I retreated after damaging one slightly. Second try I killed one. Third try I killed two. Fourth try I killed four. And then I had the hang of it and could handle them just like I did with collectors.

Is there a skill discontinuity ? Yes, absolutely.
Is it insurmontable ? Hell no.
Would it discourage newbies ? If they won't ask for help or advice, maybe. But hey this is an MMOG, not a solo-player FPS, don't be afraid to rely on other players at times.

I personally find the low level assaults to be somewhere between the guardians and the collectors because of their lower armor and their standard armament, but their dodging ability is somewhat difficult to deal with if you aren't used to it.

Maybe make a 5th class of collector bot that looks like, uh, a red Artemis that has basic dodging abilities and is armed with a flechette. That would put it on the level of the Apu series in terms of armament, midway between the Apu and Artemis in terms of dodging ability, and around the level of the Artemis in terms of armor.

It could possibly ease the transition between the basic and advanced bots a bit.

me, actually AGREE with CrippledPigeon?? wow... :D

on the other hand, a lot of his ideas are dead-on.... I like the idea of a super-Artemis

or, alternately, add a weapon-less dodging-like-mad bot to the tutorial.. "to progress to the next phase of the tutorial, destroy this bot"..... followed by an "avoid this bot's fire for one minute, using a combination of strafe and roll keys. You must remain withing 300m of the bot during this time"

I've been playing a long time, almost a year now (Beta & Alpha) .. I recently made a new name and started from the beginning again and I like the way it's setup. Kill a few Artemis, then go on to TyCorps. It IS challenging.. but why would they make the game easier for newbies? After less than 5 hours of playing i am already at 4/5/5/1/0 .. Going on to do some trading and mining now :) Although, I do like Phaserlight's mission list thing, we DO need some better missions instead of do this go there bring this back bla bla bla. Theres no real in game role playing, but I this this should go into another post :)

I jumped headlong into this game and loved it. I worked my way up the ladder until BAM! I hit the wall too, its right at pilot level 3 when you can't take beginner combat, and the easiest advanced bots are TyCorps that always seem to tag team, and AupTek-5s which dodge when they're not shooting at you. I even did some grey space exploring and got some more advanced toys, but still had trouble. I eventually just took a Ragnarok with 2 neutrons, a gemini, and 2 stingrays so I could hit them with missiles and disrupt their dodging enough to hit them with my blasters. This wall is a problem, and a deterent to new players, because outside botting the universe is still pretty thin for an inexperienced pilot who can't even take on bots - PvP just isn't an option, and let's face it, mining and trading is boring.

As for solutions, a more thorough combat tutorial is essential, one that teaches how to use physics mode, how to strafe and/or roll, and how to fight bots that dodge. In addition, a bot type or two between collector and guardian would help. I like the idea of dodgy transports that force you to improve your aim before guardians teach you to dodge like a madman.