There's a saying. If it ain't broke, it doesn't have enough features.
My point is that it doesn't really apply to VO at the moment.

I don't know wher you have been, Genka, but Vendetta could use several more features. What it doesn't need is more license level categories.

Does it need license level categories at all?

This game needs a LOT MORE content and "features" in my opinion, ify our looking for just a BASIC pvp arena style game then this is it, but I would suggest to the devs then if that is there route, to remove the RPG from there title and call it an MMOPVP instead of MMORPG.

I think genka was trying to suggest in a roundabout way that the devs spend a few weeks concentrating on balance and bugfixes. Get the kinks ironed out of what we have and then add new content once what we do have is working better. In this case the CtC convoys and the balancing of engines and weapons mass might be something to work on for a bit.

I'm all for CtC fixes and weapon balance, and even more in favour of new mass and engine stuff.

so yeah that would be great, even with no new content (at least none at the same time)

I think it's an optimization problem where adding new features draws new players, but fixing existing problems will help to keep existing players.

It does seem to me that we need a bit more fixing at the moment, but the devs, I'm sure, are well aware of this, so we can probably stop pestering them now.

zhuk: If I read you comment right, I'm with you. I think license levels -- or "levels" at all -- are not suited to this game. All we need is faction standing, provided faction becomes more complex (i.e., gain in X also gains in allied faction Y and drops in enemy faction Z) and perhaps with more momentum behind it (i.e., more difficult to gain but also more difficult to lose).

Part of the problem with this suggestion is that the fixes for some things will actually interfere with balance in the future and with new features. Consider that if the devs had dropped everything and concentrated on balance, then they would have to do it all over again when mass came into play, again if localized damage is included, and possibly again when engines are tweaked.

CtC is extra tricky due to the bot AI, and sometimes it takes a week of running it live before obscure problems become large enough to be obvious in the code (though in function they are obvious fairly early). Let us not forget that the AI HAS improved recently. It's not like they've been ignoring CtC.

In a perfect situation, this would all have been worked out beforehand, but the situation is certainly not ideal. It was either release Vendetta P2P now, or walk away from a dream. As we have seen in this thread, some people feel features are a priority, while others feel balance is a priority. It's a delicate balance. I think that the devs have made the best of it by trying to strike a balance of new features combined with bug fixes. You are free to disagree.

"Consider that if the devs had dropped everything and concentrated on balance, then they would have to do it all over again when mass came into play, again if localized damage is included, and possibly again when engines are tweaked."

I have a succinct responce to that, but it violates the board policies. I'll therefore tell a parable:

There was a certain man who wished to build a house of the highest quality. So the man went out and bought a load of bricks and began to work. After a few days, his friend and neighbor came over with a pair of beers to see how the work was coming along. To his shock he discovered that the courses were all crooked, the foundation was not level, and the wall were not straight. He began to fear that the whole building would fall down, so he went to his friend in great haste and said, "Neighbor, it is a lovely idea for a house you have here, and you've certainly done a great deal of work. I almost fear to tell you this less it dishearten you, but I fear to tell you but I think the latest layer of bricks you have laid down is not straight." But the man building the house only smiled and said, "Don't worry neighbor. I'll straighten it all up when I lay down the last course of bricks." The next day the same thing happened, and the next and the next. And so it continued for more than a year, and each time the neighbor pleaded more and more earnestly, and each time the builder replied in the same way. Then one day the neighbor was preparing to go over and look at the progress yet again, when there was a knock on the door. He went to the door and its was the builder of the house. He said, "Neighbor, do you know where my bricks are?" And the neighbor said, "Yes, my friend, you have put them all into your crooked house."

"I have a succinct responce to that, but it violates the board policies. "

How rude, and how unlikely.

I thought you were going to oppose my point, and yet you have supported it, sort of.

The features being added could be seen as bricks in a wall, but some of those bricks are part of the foundation.

Some would say that modifying the foundation so late in production demonstrates extremely poor planning, but remember that Vendetta was originally intended to be a "tech demo" only. This was supposed to be a showcase that would entice another company to purchase Guild's custom game engine. That company would then either make their own game and add all their own bells and whistles, or support Guild while they made it. Vendetta was not originally intended to become a full MMORPG.

Well, things change. Guild has instead taken on making their custom game engine live up to it's potential all by themselves. Like any small building that is enlarged, there have to be rennovations to the foundation or the whole structure will fail.

Each time Guild releases an update, it is part of an overall plan that they have carefully considered. Many of the "features" of late have included elements that are necessary for overall game balance. They are more than just features. Adding mass effects was totally necessary for overall ship/weapon/combat/trading/piracy balance and will eventually lead to working out some long-term problems some of the ships have had. Mining is essential to crafting and a more dynamic economy. The bounty system, aside from being something to do, impacts the economy and trading/piracy. Let us not forget that with each update their are bug fixes. In the case of CtC it was more of a "bug-decrease", but sometimes things behave differently in the "real" Vendetta universe than on the test server.

[Edit]

Did you not read my post at all? The last paragraph stands as a response to your post.

I'm quite clear on the point of this thread. I've been trying to point out that these problems are NOT easy to fix - and I've told you why. If they were simple to fix they would have been eliminated already. Sure they could kluge something together that would "fix" something for a week, but then they'd just bump into the same problem again when they went to make some other change. For instance, had they balanced the ships to everyone's satisfaction a few months ago, the whole thing would have to have been totally reworked to account for mass effects -which had to be added. This is a complicated game where each function impacts another. Simply stopping the creation of features will not help matters much. As I've pointed out, some of what people are calling "features" are integral to the balance of the game. It's not nearly as simple as people tend to assume it is.

Do you want it now, or do you want it right?

Anyway, I'm trying to inform you, not debate you.

I don't think this thread is working as intended. I will edit my above post.

We will be addressing some existing balance issues in the near future. The choice to work on "New Features" was mostly a business one.. so many would-be consumers have expressed doubt at our ability (or even intent) to follow through and add new features after release, that it seemed that a demonstration might be necessary to our survival. So, we pushed to add a lot of content in the first month so that we can send out in a press release, and say "look, we added mining!", etc. If I sent out a press release that says "look, we rebalanced the engines and got rid of bug X" the larger game-playing market wouldn't care. Or even notice.

This is not a course of action I would necessarily have choosen if we had say.. enough funding to last a few months. But we don't, and we're hanging by our thumbs (for any concerned newbies, no we aren't going anywhere, things are just a bit tight and we're used to this). So I need to do something that will attract some attention and generates subscribers. Right Now. I really wish our development wasn't always under pressure like this, or market-driven at all, but that's life. At least we're here!

That said, we'll be addressing a bunch of broken stuff next week. Regardless of Time Spent Fixing vs Time Spent Adding, this sort of development is always in parallel.. since some of us are much more suited to new development than we are to "tweaking the game". So, to maximize productivity, we're almost always doing both.

I have no desire to alienate or annoy you guys, you are the reason why we are still here. Nor do I generally wish to provide a broken game. I'm simply making the choices I think are most likely to lead to our survival. For what it's worth, we've spent time talking at the recent meetings about engine/ship rebalancing, the guild system, the economy, and pretty much everything else that people have taken issue with.

Thank you incarnate.

Replys like this from you, andy, ray, and waylon are why I continue to play even when I'm ready to toss my computer out the window because i'm frustrated with something.

Aye, this gives hope. Thanks.

Yeah, definetively. As long hope is on the horizon, we shall stop whining. Thanks.

Milka, Wheata, Breeda, Jonah, Stamosa, Joolia, Andrewsa!
COME BACK TO LIFE!

Seems like no one actually got the point genka was making, at least according to his syntax. Of course, he may not have meant the point he was making, since he referenced it in a recent thread. Also, the title of his thread was "Stop adding new features"... which could be ironic...

In any case, I was writing as fleabait back then,
and there's an argument here that I take issue with.

That's the balance, add, balance, add, way of generating content.
(which gets slower each time because "Balance" is O(N!), while content is O(1))

I think that under the circumstances where you're constantly rolling out new content (new weapons, ships, etc), if you design some loose metric, that all new things should at least attempt to fulfill....

Then you'll definitely have some broken things, but the flow of content will just as quickly offer alternatives.

The problem with balance, in my opinion, is ONLY one when the rate of development slows down. People start to spend their time with existing content and they can't come to rely on new content for their fun, hence balance becomes more important to them.

I think if you speed up the rate of development (as in new ships/weaponry) enough, (and use some hand-wavy method of establishing something approximating balance right out of the gate), you won't even have to worry about balance for a long while yet.

If license levels are scrapped how does a player measure their own progress? As it stands levels above about 10 give nothing and merely measure time in game and that is fair , but look at it from the point of view of new players. How would they measure their own progress ?

Many items in game are now obtained by completing mission trees. I accept that is an elegant solution, but to do that for all the items in game would be a huge programming task, and clearly not a short term objective. So short term the only system which has been shown to work is xp building to the next level.

May I make one last point , though I know I will be flamed for doing so. The vo players vs the vo watchers. I have a feeling that games need a critical mass of players. vo suffers from having too many watchers and too few players.

I hear too often the opinion of new players " cool game but there is nothing going on ". I have little to counter that argument : I suggest hs , they do that on their own , the new border missions are good but real pvp in there would add so much , ctc is desolate when no one is chasing you.I ran through grey a dozen times today unchallenged. vo needs bums on seats. The game itself is not broken ; the will of the playerbase to turn it into something outstanding is what is lacking.

So quit criticising from irc or through the forums. Get into space and actually fly a ship. Live with the fact that vo is a bit idiosyncratic, just enjoy it.

Ecka