Forums » Suggestions
Reverse in Arcade Mode
I have been toying with this games concept and playstyle since I started, and I really only have one complaint that is holding this game back: Lack of reverse while in Arcade Mode.
I think there should be an option in the configuration files, for two different kinds of Arcade mode. Forward and Dual. Forward operates as Arcade does now (with only forward available) and Dual will operate with reverse as well. This does not need to be something you can toggle whilst in-game, only something you select beforehand.
Currently, Arcade Mode only goes forward. The forward/reverse buttons just move the acceleration dial up and down. If reverse were to be put in, it might make Arcade Mode more difficult to use with a keyboard, since it would be difficult to get back to the 0 speed. Things could be done about this, such as giving a small operational 'gap' between forward and reverse on the keyboard, but that still sounds like you could slip past it and start going in reverse when you wanted to stop.
I have a Saitek X-45 joystick w/ throttle. There is a Throttle, Rudder, Joystick and 2 rotary dials. By using these dials in Arcade Mode, I can adjust my momentum in different directions by small degrees. I also have a full throttle, which does not have the problems the keyboard does with centering my speed at 0. I really like Arcade Mode and could really use reverse.
So I want to address both problems. Keep Arcade mode stopping simple for keyboard users, but give Joystick users the option of a reverse speed option.
I do not see Arcade Mode as the 'easy, use for flight' mode. I just see it as operationally different. In Physics mode, you operate the thrusters yourself manually. In this way you orent the ship and make timed thrusts to get the direction of momentum you desire. But in Physics Mode, there is no need for degrees of control that you get from a joystick. If you want to go forward, you thrust forward until you are at the desired momentum, and then you stop. On/Off. If you want to go foward with a slight tilt to the right, you hold foward for longer then you hold right. On/Off. There is no reason to be thrusting at 50%, to accelerate slowly. You just want a desired momentum and direction. My rotary dials are useless for this; I may as well use a hat or the keyboard.
Arcade Mode is more like 'Computer-assisted Mode'. My momentum is based on my ship orientation. I do not thrust small bits to go which way I want. I have enough dials and incrimental degrees of control that I can instruct the computer 'Forward 80%, right 2%, down 100%' and the computer will thrust and reverse thrust as is needed to keep me at my desired speed in my desired direction. If I then move my nose up, my 'down' as related to my spaceship changes, and Arcade mode thus re-stabilizes my momentum so that my direction is still 'down'. All of my movements are related to my ship orientation.
In Physics Mode, desired direction is oriented around the universe. In Arcade Mode, desired direction is oriented around my ship. They are just different.
Please give me the option of going in reverse while in Arcade Mode.
I think there should be an option in the configuration files, for two different kinds of Arcade mode. Forward and Dual. Forward operates as Arcade does now (with only forward available) and Dual will operate with reverse as well. This does not need to be something you can toggle whilst in-game, only something you select beforehand.
Currently, Arcade Mode only goes forward. The forward/reverse buttons just move the acceleration dial up and down. If reverse were to be put in, it might make Arcade Mode more difficult to use with a keyboard, since it would be difficult to get back to the 0 speed. Things could be done about this, such as giving a small operational 'gap' between forward and reverse on the keyboard, but that still sounds like you could slip past it and start going in reverse when you wanted to stop.
I have a Saitek X-45 joystick w/ throttle. There is a Throttle, Rudder, Joystick and 2 rotary dials. By using these dials in Arcade Mode, I can adjust my momentum in different directions by small degrees. I also have a full throttle, which does not have the problems the keyboard does with centering my speed at 0. I really like Arcade Mode and could really use reverse.
So I want to address both problems. Keep Arcade mode stopping simple for keyboard users, but give Joystick users the option of a reverse speed option.
I do not see Arcade Mode as the 'easy, use for flight' mode. I just see it as operationally different. In Physics mode, you operate the thrusters yourself manually. In this way you orent the ship and make timed thrusts to get the direction of momentum you desire. But in Physics Mode, there is no need for degrees of control that you get from a joystick. If you want to go forward, you thrust forward until you are at the desired momentum, and then you stop. On/Off. If you want to go foward with a slight tilt to the right, you hold foward for longer then you hold right. On/Off. There is no reason to be thrusting at 50%, to accelerate slowly. You just want a desired momentum and direction. My rotary dials are useless for this; I may as well use a hat or the keyboard.
Arcade Mode is more like 'Computer-assisted Mode'. My momentum is based on my ship orientation. I do not thrust small bits to go which way I want. I have enough dials and incrimental degrees of control that I can instruct the computer 'Forward 80%, right 2%, down 100%' and the computer will thrust and reverse thrust as is needed to keep me at my desired speed in my desired direction. If I then move my nose up, my 'down' as related to my spaceship changes, and Arcade mode thus re-stabilizes my momentum so that my direction is still 'down'. All of my movements are related to my ship orientation.
In Physics Mode, desired direction is oriented around the universe. In Arcade Mode, desired direction is oriented around my ship. They are just different.
Please give me the option of going in reverse while in Arcade Mode.
I second that. Its the only reason keeping me from useing arcade in fights.
Cyan
Cyan
I'm surprised this idea wasn't pushed that much previously--I guess the majority are physics or joystick players. It seems like common sense to me. Why wouldn't there be a reverse for arcade mode? I mean it's a key that's simply not being used in arcade mode. I third it, even though I'm a physics only player.
I don't want to belittle your idea -- it has merit -- but I have to admit I'm a little baffled.
You have one of -THOSE-, and you don't use Physics flight? :)
I mean, if you have a preference you have a preference, and I respect that, but I honestly cannot wrap my head around the idea that someone with gear like that could prefer the arcade mode. It seems really strange to me.
You have one of -THOSE-, and you don't use Physics flight? :)
I mean, if you have a preference you have a preference, and I respect that, but I honestly cannot wrap my head around the idea that someone with gear like that could prefer the arcade mode. It seems really strange to me.
I explained why, actually. In Physics mode, there is no need for degrees of control. You never want to accelerate slowly, or put out 50% thrust. Your thrusters are either ON or OFF, to push you in the direction you want to be 'floating'. So there is no need for my rotary dials at all. I have to twist them all the way to the right/left to get going at full acceleration in the direction I want, and then pull them back to the center to stop accelerating once I'm at the speed I want.
However, with ARCADE mode my dials are very, very useful. If I push one dial to 50%, I ACCELERATE as fast as possible to a 50% speed in that direction, without any micro-management from me timing button presses or twisting the knobs out and then in. And if I change the orientation of my ship (say, by rolling) the computer compensates and I continue to fly at 50% in that direction. I don't have to micro-manage my thrusters, I can just set the dials/throttle to where I want them for the direction I want (with the front of my ship oriented the way I want for the direction I'm going) and then worry about other things. Or change this on-the-fly, without any thruster micro-management. The computer does that micro-management for me.
I'm sure there are things that can be achieved by proper thruster micro-management, but I do not want to bother with such things. If I want to change my relative direction, I'll adjust my controls to instruct it which way, and at which speed, I want to go.
Really, this is the only thing upsetting me with Vendetta thus-far. I plan on writing up a fullmini-review later, detailing what Vendetta does well or different and how certain things (such as the 'slow' speeds) are good design implimentations for this type of game. But the lack of reverse in an otherwise good mode is very frustrating. I could be untouchable against the bots I have tried, if only I could stop them from ramming into me. Physics mode could do this, but only if I micro-managed the thrusters, something I would rather not be doing if it can easily be done for me.
Please, add the option to turn on reverse in Arcade mode for players who want it and for players like me, who have a Joystick and can handle centering their relative direction using an axis.
However, with ARCADE mode my dials are very, very useful. If I push one dial to 50%, I ACCELERATE as fast as possible to a 50% speed in that direction, without any micro-management from me timing button presses or twisting the knobs out and then in. And if I change the orientation of my ship (say, by rolling) the computer compensates and I continue to fly at 50% in that direction. I don't have to micro-manage my thrusters, I can just set the dials/throttle to where I want them for the direction I want (with the front of my ship oriented the way I want for the direction I'm going) and then worry about other things. Or change this on-the-fly, without any thruster micro-management. The computer does that micro-management for me.
I'm sure there are things that can be achieved by proper thruster micro-management, but I do not want to bother with such things. If I want to change my relative direction, I'll adjust my controls to instruct it which way, and at which speed, I want to go.
Really, this is the only thing upsetting me with Vendetta thus-far. I plan on writing up a fullmini-review later, detailing what Vendetta does well or different and how certain things (such as the 'slow' speeds) are good design implimentations for this type of game. But the lack of reverse in an otherwise good mode is very frustrating. I could be untouchable against the bots I have tried, if only I could stop them from ramming into me. Physics mode could do this, but only if I micro-managed the thrusters, something I would rather not be doing if it can easily be done for me.
Please, add the option to turn on reverse in Arcade mode for players who want it and for players like me, who have a Joystick and can handle centering their relative direction using an axis.
Yeah, it always struck me as just being a bug, and I wondered why it wasn't fixed.
Why it is the way it is:
Once upon a time there was Physics mode, and it was all that could be used in Vendetta. And we said "Flightsim people and joystick fans will have a hard time getting used to the game like this, because it's much different". So.. as a solution, we created Arcade mode, an elaborate control system that sits on top of physics mode and (essentially) fires your engines for you. When looking for a model of how to create the most easy-to-use "flightsim-like" interface, we went to the classical Wing Commander and X-Wing type model. You increase throttle to go faster. You cannot go backwards. We just didn't add it because we were trying to simulate something that didn't have it.
That said:
I'm cool with adding reverse. I.. don't know what other ramifications that might have. If it's something easy to do, we'll do it. If it has some other impact and requires retuning the whole control system (which was an involved thing to create and tune, let me say), then we'll probably push it back to a lower priority. I'll bring it up in the meeting on Monday, but I have other topics that are more pressing in the short term.
Once upon a time there was Physics mode, and it was all that could be used in Vendetta. And we said "Flightsim people and joystick fans will have a hard time getting used to the game like this, because it's much different". So.. as a solution, we created Arcade mode, an elaborate control system that sits on top of physics mode and (essentially) fires your engines for you. When looking for a model of how to create the most easy-to-use "flightsim-like" interface, we went to the classical Wing Commander and X-Wing type model. You increase throttle to go faster. You cannot go backwards. We just didn't add it because we were trying to simulate something that didn't have it.
That said:
I'm cool with adding reverse. I.. don't know what other ramifications that might have. If it's something easy to do, we'll do it. If it has some other impact and requires retuning the whole control system (which was an involved thing to create and tune, let me say), then we'll probably push it back to a lower priority. I'll bring it up in the meeting on Monday, but I have other topics that are more pressing in the short term.
I think adding the reverse would complicate matters quite a bit.
Arcade mode works on one primary principle...
You always go forward, whatever you are facing is where you are going.
If you could go reverse then what happens if you turn? would it act like arcade mode but backwards? (so you always go reverse, so whatever you're facing goes away from you) That seems like it would be very disorienting.
The other alternative would be that reverse works like physics mode where you rotate your ship along the axis without effecting your heading, but at what point does the "always go forward" mode take over again.
-Cam-
Arcade mode works on one primary principle...
You always go forward, whatever you are facing is where you are going.
If you could go reverse then what happens if you turn? would it act like arcade mode but backwards? (so you always go reverse, so whatever you're facing goes away from you) That seems like it would be very disorienting.
The other alternative would be that reverse works like physics mode where you rotate your ship along the axis without effecting your heading, but at what point does the "always go forward" mode take over again.
-Cam-
Actually, turning in reverse in arcade is not difficult. I can even ASCII-diagram it for you.
Observe. In normal arcade flight, you have it like thus:
---
| |
---
|
|
You have the engine pushing you forward, and essentially you have your lats flip your ship around a bit to change your heading.
In reverse, yaw would work exactly the same, you'd just have your thrust coming out your nose:
|
|
---
| |
---
Therefore, if I yaw right, I'll yaw right but I'll still be pushed backward.
|
|
---
| | -
--- | |
Yaw Right, to --| |
| |
-
It wouldn't really be that disorienting for someone used to arcade mode and who thinks about the vectors involved.
So essentially, it works exactly like forward arcade mode... you're just going backwards. :D
Thanks for the lookover, Inc. Remember, you guys have pizza riding on this, so make the right choice. :D
Observe. In normal arcade flight, you have it like thus:
---
| |
---
|
|
You have the engine pushing you forward, and essentially you have your lats flip your ship around a bit to change your heading.
In reverse, yaw would work exactly the same, you'd just have your thrust coming out your nose:
|
|
---
| |
---
Therefore, if I yaw right, I'll yaw right but I'll still be pushed backward.
|
|
---
| | -
--- | |
Yaw Right, to --| |
| |
-
It wouldn't really be that disorienting for someone used to arcade mode and who thinks about the vectors involved.
So essentially, it works exactly like forward arcade mode... you're just going backwards. :D
Thanks for the lookover, Inc. Remember, you guys have pizza riding on this, so make the right choice. :D
And crapall, the ascii didn't come out right at all. Oh well.
Incarnate - if you did reverse in Arcade, it would be just fine to toggle from forward/always forward, to reverse/always reverse.
Imo, at least. I'd only use it to toggle for fights, really, when I want to change directions.
Imo, at least. I'd only use it to toggle for fights, really, when I want to change directions.
Physics is so much more powerful than arcade that it's not even funny. You should all just learn Physics mode rather than trying to make some crazy physics-arcade hybrid..
Hear the gospel! Amen!
Forcystus, you don't quite understand. Arcade Mode also works whilst strafing.
If I turn my dial Right, my ship goes right. If I turn my ship, I continue to go 'always right'.
If I turn my dial Right, my ship goes right. If I turn my ship, I continue to go 'always right'.
Shouldn't have used the term lats there. I know you can strafe and turn all at the same time, I was just trying to explain that having thrust come out of your face vs. out of your butt wouldn't be that hard to control in arcade.
Right, and I agree there. I don't think it would be difficult to control.
Though I still think it should be an option. Try using arcade mode with the keyboard controls, see how the throttle works. Now imagine how it might be difficult to reach 0 speed whilst in that mode. Which is why I think there should be an 'Arcade Setting' option, with 'Forward' and 'Dual'. In-game, you would still just press the button as normal to switch between arcade and physics. But depending on what setting you have assigned in the options, 'Arcade' might work with reverse or just with forward.
Though I still think it should be an option. Try using arcade mode with the keyboard controls, see how the throttle works. Now imagine how it might be difficult to reach 0 speed whilst in that mode. Which is why I think there should be an 'Arcade Setting' option, with 'Forward' and 'Dual'. In-game, you would still just press the button as normal to switch between arcade and physics. But depending on what setting you have assigned in the options, 'Arcade' might work with reverse or just with forward.