Today I logged on to finish up and get my level 1 trade license. When I got knocked offline the otherday I was at 1925/2000, which meant I had to get 75xp to go to the next level. So I log on today, go kill a few enemies and sell the scrap metal. I'm thinking that should get me some of the 75 xp. After selling I look and it still says 1925/2000. So I ask in the chat. And it turns out that I don't get any trade xp for selling stuff, only from doing missions. My immediate question in responce was "Don't you get xp from just killing stuff, not only on missions?" and the answer was yes.

That makes no logical sense. If I can go out and kill things randomally and get xp towards my license, then I should be able to sell things randomally and get xp towards my license. If this isn't changed you are going to run into huge problems down the line. Mostly becuase the people who play the traders of the game won't feel like that are getting the same benefits as someone who choose to be a fighter.

So that was issue number 1. Issue number 2 comes from actually getting my license. When I went from 0 to 1 on my combat license it seemed that I got offered new ships and equipment. When I when from 0 to 1 on my trade license I go nothing. This is also extremely unfair. Just like the fact I get a better fighter when I jump to a new license level, I should get a better transport ship for jumping to the next trade license level. I should be able to get a ship that has more cargo room and can go faster. I would think the idea is when you get a better license you can trade more efficiently. Being able to take more goods to places in a shorter period of time would be exactly what I would need.

My final thought is a question.

Are there any plans on letting players set up shop in stations? Possibly if they get a high enough trade license?

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If I can go out and kill things randomally and get xp towards my license, then I should be able to sell things randomally and get xp towards my license.
</quote>

Then you could just stay at one station and keep buying and selling stuff, gaining XP, with a minimal financial loss.

A better idea (IMNSHO) would be to give trading XP only if you manage to sell a widget for double price you bought it for. Adjust this rate as needed. The more profit you get, the better trader you supposedly are, the more XP you get.

With the possible exception Ticho mentioned, merely buying and selling widgets should not yield XP.

When a supply/demand scheme is introduced into the game, then supplying a station with needed widgets in considerable amounts could yield XP (like scrap metal is now).

Understand that most of the widgets in-game now are distributed as place holders. When the Devs decide it is time, the availability of widgets will be adjusted.

As this is a subject near and dear to my heart, In all probability this post will become quite long. :)

<<<That makes no logical sense. If I can go out and kill things randomally and get xp towards my license, then I should be able to sell things randomally and get xp towards my license.>>>

I both agree and disagree. Killing things now gives you XP appropriate to what you kill them with (if you use a light weapon you gain light weapons XP.) You are accomplishing something by killing a target.
Selling cargo is not quite the same. When you sell cargo for a modest profit, I dont believe you should get any XP gain from it.
The way the XP and Levels work in vendetta isn't quite the same as they function in other games. Think of the levels as more of a generic universe wide reputation. Making a sale or delivering a product isnt going to get you a significant amount of recognistion unless there is something to set that apart from every other sale.
In the event that you make a HUGE profit, (at least quadruple what you paid for it at the present economic balance) I could see a small increase in your trade XP because word would get around ("did you hear about so and so?, he made the sale of the century at Dau headquarters")

As relayer mentioned it is possible that the devs will redistribute the cargos to have a more set product chain (station X needs ores to make the wigits that station Q needs to produce some guidance systems that station Y needs for their Consumer Robotics)
In that case delivering the appropriate materiel to the stations in question on a regular basis could potentially give you a gain of some sort. However I would prefer that gain to be in reputation, not in skill level.

<<When I when from 0 to 1 on my trade license I go nothing. This is also extremely unfair. Just like the fact I get a better fighter when I jump to a new license level, I should get a better transport ship for jumping to the next trade license level. I should be able to get a ship that has more cargo room and can go faster. I would think the idea is when you get a better license you can trade more efficiently. Being able to take more goods to places in a shorter period of time would be exactly what I would need.>>

You are totally correct there, however the equipment the devs have in the game at the moment is not sorted by level in anything other than a very basic fasion. Many of the equipment levels need modified (IMO) and the balance needs to be adjusted to be more newbie friendly.
Also, just as a thought, You might want to travel to some other stations as it is possible that you were simply at a station that doesnt have a large selection of ships and equipment availible. I seem to remember getting a few items for level 1 trade, way back when, in the old universe. In addition the nation you picked will affect what trade items are widely availible at which level. (once again the different stations offer different things)

<<<Are there any plans on letting players set up shop in stations? Possibly if they get a high enough trade license?>>>

Player owned shops and even player owned stations are a planned part of the game, However according to the recent IGN interview that Incarnate (john bergman) did, they will not be making it into the game at initial release, but will be amoung the planned additions for the first year of gameplay.

[quote]
Think of the levels as more of a generic universe wide reputation.
[/quote]
Isn't that what faction is? My understanding is that levels and licenses are a reflection of how well you do something.

[quote]
Then you could just stay at one station and keep buying and selling stuff, gaining XP, with a minimal financial loss.
[/quote]
You easily correct this by saying that a player can't get xp from selling stuff at the station in which they bought it at.

[quote]
Killing things now gives you XP appropriate to what you kill them with (if you use a light weapon you gain light weapons XP.) You are accomplishing something by killing a target.
[/quote]
So if I take a good from one station, travel 20 systems away and deliver that same good, I'm not accomplishing anything?

If I am taking my goods from station A to station B, there is plenty of danger involved. For a fighter all they loose is their ship. For a trader there is more risk. Not only do they loose their ship, but also their cargo and a good chunk of money with it. Remember it's their job to move goods. If they loose cargo the effect is much worse.

Lets look at what they have planned in the future. If the choice of playing a trader or a fighter comes up. As a trader I can only gain xp (which means better equipment) by taking jobs. As a fighter I not only get xp from jobs, but also from just killing randomally. Why in the world would I choose to be a trader? What exactly is the benefit?

If they don't want to give people xp for selling stuff randomally, that's fine. But they are going to HAVE to come up with a way for a trader to get xp besides doing jobs and missions. If someone fighting can get experince from going out and fighting whatever, there has to be something equivelent for people who trade.

You don't gain experience, but you do gain money towards which you can buy better equipment when it becomes available....

But then again, while you get a small amount of experience for killing bots, fighters can also pickup the cargo and sell it for money, so you are correct raynes, it does seem a bit unfair now that I think about it...

But then again (again), should traders start getting experience for ramdom acts of commerce, then the fighters would get double experience. Once for random acts of violence, and a second from selling the cargo after the carnage is over. Seems like the fighters would have it over the traders 2 to 1.

Well the question here is what would make you a trader and what would make you a fighter? The answer is the license. So if I work really hard on getting a high trade license, shouldn't I get higher xp for trade than someone who hasn't? Yes. Just like the person who worked at combat more should get more xp for killing.

So they wouldn't be getting double the xp because they woulnd't have the license.

It's really rather simple. Raynes is right. If It is possible to get SOME sort of xp
by killing bots outside of a mission, the same should be true of trading. Period.
And (as I have stated elsewhere) there MUST be defined rewards for each increase
in level in all catagories. Also, if you take your level "test" (really just paying a fee)
at your home station, your reward should be available THEN and THERE. Period.
Players should be encouraged to explore to get "extras," not to get what they have
rightfully earned. Remember the old Vendetta? Each nation had a unique ship, but if you were clever, skilled and maybe a bit lucky you could get to a hidden
sector where they were all available. Taking risks, solving puzzles and exploring
should have their OWN rewards....

Just to demonstrate that I am not off my rocker, I wish to use a quote from an interview John Bergman gave on mmorpg.com.

"MMORPG.COM: Ok, now that that's out of the way, let's talk characters for a bit. Can you expound on the Skill System a bit for us? You say it's open ended, does this mean skill trees? Or just a bunch of skills to put points into?

John Bergman: There are a number of skills which can be increased by various activities. Trading items from station to station, or taking on trading missions, increases the Commerce skill for instance. "

There it is straight from the big guy himself. Trading items from station to station OR taking on trading missions increases commerce skill. Currently it does not. Trading items from station to station get you nothing by money. That alone does not give you an increase in your commerece skill (trade license). This needs to be fixed.

The actual interview can be read here.
http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm?sw=1280&sh=1024&setview=features&loadFeature=1&gameID=154/

> shouldn't I get higher xp for trade than someone who hasn't? Yes.

it is allready implemented. a typical scrap-mission gives 1950 XP points to me.
You got less? fact proven.

edited: paedric: ups... you are right.

<<Isn't that what faction is? My understanding is that levels and licenses are a reflection of how well you do something.>>

That is traditionally how games have handled it. The better you do something (higher level) the better the weapons you can use, which does make sense in a traditional MMORPG. You dont give a katana to a person who cant even use a knife to eat with after all. However the combat model in vendetta is somewhat different. How well you can pilot your ship doesent really affect the types of weapons you can put on it to a huge degree. Since level isn't the ONE deciding factor in what equipment you can buy, As far as i can see it really is more of a general reputation than a specific ability score.

<<You easily correct this by saying that a player can't get xp from selling stuff at the station in which they bought it at.>>
So in the sectors where there are two stations (theres a couple, you'll just have to find them) you could run cargo back and forth all day and gain XP. As i stated above, you would need to make a good profit. you dont get XP for fighting a bot, you get XP for KILLING a bot. for succeding at what you have attempted. since the whole point of trading is to make money, if you dont make any money, you havent accomplished anything. Perhaps the amount of profit you need to make to gain XP could be based on your commerce level. A higher commerce would require you to make a larger profit to get any XP for it.

On a similar note, the bots need to stop giving you XP after you get to a certain level above them. I should not get any XP at all for killing drone 1's and drone 2's now that i am level 9/11/10/11. There needs to be some form of XP curve for combat as well.

<<So if I take a good from one station, travel 20 systems away and deliver that same good, I'm not accomplishing anything? >> Not if you make no profit for it. See above.

Who'sa this John Bergman guy?!

Anyway, I didn't bother reading the whole thread, because I am sure it's all the same, but I did catch a comment someone made about levels being a sort of global faction standing.
This couldn't be truer if it was a duck with a ladle. See, the whole levels thing works like a resume. If you were to sell a couple of old video-games on e-bay would you put that in your resume? And if you did put that in your resume, how good would that look with big corporations?
"Hi thre. I am sold gmes on eby. Wuld u plz hire me?'

NoAddedSugar:"it is allready implemented. a typical scrap-*MISSION* gives 1950 XP points to me. You got less? fact proven."

You seem to have missed the point of raynes' argument, which is that while fighters (well, everyone really) are able to venture out into the void and kill a few bots for experience *WITHOUT* having to take a combat mission, traders *MUST* take a trade mission in order to recieve experience for selling goods to stations.

NoAddedSugar, you received 1950 experiece for that scrap run because you where on a bonifide trade mission. If you tried to sell that same scrap on your own (without taking a mission), all you would receive would be credits. You would not receive one (1) experience for your efforts.

"This couldn't be truer if it was a duck with a ladle. See, the whole levels thing works like a resume. If you were to sell a couple of old video-games on e-bay would you put that in your resume? And if you did put that in your resume, how good would that look with big corporations?
"Hi thre. I am sold gmes on eby. Wuld u plz hire me?'"

No but if I were in applying for a job selling airplanes and I sold 4 Boeing 747's on e-bay I sure as heck would. The same goes for in game. If I take a common good at one station and sell it where it's needed at another station then I should get a bump up on my traders resume.

Besides none of those arguements work, because there are no levels. There are licenses. You do things in a particular area to gain experience so that you may get a better license. So the more you fight, the better you get a combat, the better fighting license you get. It should be the more you trade and transport stuff, the better you get, the better traders license you get. That is not the case.

I don't understand how people can argue that if I spend the time transporting 300 shipments of luxury goods from station A to station B, I shouldn't get trade experience. Just becuase I didn't take a mission to tell me to do so? Maybe I can tell from the price that is what they need?

And as I said before if it's really such a bad thing to give people xp for selling stuff without an actual mission, fine. But there has to be another way for players to get trade xp without doing jobs. Fighters can get combat xp by doing things outside of a mission, traders (and explorers) should also.

"Trading items from station to station, or taking on trading missions, increases the Commerce skill for instance."

--Incarnate

Does that answer one of your questions?

If it does, it's not evident at the moment. Perhaps this feature is to be added "Soon™"?

It doesn't do that in game right now. It only gives you xp if you are on a mission.

I know. I'm just saying that it appears to be a planned feature.

<<I don't understand how people can argue that if I spend the time transporting 300 shipments of luxury goods from station A to station B, I shouldn't get trade experience. Just becuase I didn't take a mission to tell me to do so? Maybe I can tell from the price that is what they need?>>

Ahah! We've discovered the problem. You are mistaken about what we are arguing(or at least what i'm saying). I'm arguing that if you transport 300 shipments of luxury goods from station A to station B AND DO NOT MAKE A GOOD PROFIT, you do not get any experienmce.
Obviously what a good profit is would need to be defined.

<<Besides none of those arguements work, because there are no levels. There are licenses>>
Actually if you take a look at your license test it reads "increase your license levels" and all of the skills are listed as "level X" The licenes are vendettas version of levels. If they were a true license, each faction and nation you visited would have thier own license you would have to buy to be able to get access to the equipment at that faction, after all its tax income for the appropriate government :).

And just out of curiosity, why the hell would a duck have a ladle? and where did you come up with that outlandish expression?

There is a problem with tieing the trade xp to the amount of profit, that being the amount of profit is going to be dynamic. So lets say I buy some luxury goods at a station and sell them at another station. I get double the profit and get xp for it. So I decide to do the route again. I travel 5 systems back to the original station get the luxury goods, then 5 systems to deliver. I dock and suddenly the amount of profit drops to 1.5 times what it was last time I was there. I've just be screwed out of xp.

You can't have the amount of xp someone earns based upon something that changes constantly. How would one ever work to gain their next license?

I'll put it to you another way. In the game it's very clear where enemies are. The level and type is shown on the map. Now I'm going to change it. From now on, when looking at the nav map, all areas that have enemies in them will simply say the word enemies. No type, no level. When a fighter goes into the area and start hunting they will have no clue what they are going up against. To find out they have to actually kill things. It gets worse. Lets say they kill a level 1 pirate drone. Does that mean it's a level 1 area? No. Each drones level is dynamic. So the next one could be a level 40 drone. Also under this new system we are going to say the only xp a fighter gets is if the enemy is at their level or higher. So now all fighters have to go into a field killing everything in the hope they get some xp. Sound fair? How would it stand if fighters had no idea where to hunt or what they were hunting until it was killed? How would it stand if a 25, 50, or 75% of what they killed got them no xp?

Well that is exactly what you are suggesting they do with trade xp. It simply won't work and isn't fair.