I still don't really care for 'leveling'. It feels a bit arbitrary to me. Having to level up ends up being 'work' that I must do in order to have 'fun' in game.

I really enjoyed the earlier universes when things were more skill based.

I understand the idea is to give people goals to keep the game interesting, I just think this is something better done with factions, guilds, nation governments, missions, a STORY, ect. Just not skill points.

There is no real world equivalent to skill points that allows me to empathise with my character seeking skill points. If I've flown 50 trade missions then I'm better at trading BECAUSE I've flown 50 trade missions and learned from the experience. NOT because I'm allowed to buy a better engine. Same for combat ... if I can dodge a Phoenix attack and survive it’s because I learned something the last 500 times it happened. NOT because I don't have a job and botted for a bazillion hours and am level 99/99/99/99 and have a faster engine than him.

What I mean to say is, I'm ok with items like a special uber-Hornet not being available unless you have a certain standing with the manufacturer. To me this is good RPing. It encourages RP elements in a less arbitrary way.

I just can't get into the leveling though. The stats become the goal and the story falls to the wayside. Everyone must reach the highest level to be on skill vs. skill standing with each other. It makes it hard for me to get into character since the character motivation seems so fake.

I don't know... any insightful comments on this? This is the only major problem I have with the TEST at this point. How's the rest of you feeling about this?

I agree. There's only so much botting can teach a person.

Here's how i feel about it.

Leveling is fine. The current problem is the lack of mission content, which the devs are working on. Once we have more mission types availible, leveling will become more interesting (not neccesarily easier, but more interesting) Hopefully we will eventually have missions generated by the choices of other players.
Imagine Joe Trader accepts a mission for Corvus, (deliver this weapons prototype to sol II, Serco sky command. they urgently need it. We reccomend that you find an escort as we believe that the Itani may attempt to intercept this shipment. Msg the mission bot if you want us to help you locate assistance.)
Joe decides he isnt capable of defending himself, but the reward for this delivery is just too great to pass up, so he /msgs the bot, accepts a 15% reduction in his fee and a new mission is created.
Chris the Combat ace happens to be in corvus strongold territory when the Mission computer posts an urgent request for someone to undertake an escort mission to Serco Sky command. Being bored, Chris accepts the mission, Both he and joe are informed of their tasks, they discuss what route they want to take and away they go.
Meanwhile, Arnold Attacker (itani bounty hunter extroardinare) is idly looking for something to do, while browsing through his availible missions he notices that the Itani Space force wants a shipment intercepted before it can reach Serco Territory. The reward is really good so he takes the mission. There are actually 4 missions created as intercepts, and as each one is taken the pilot is assigned to one of the sectors near the serco border and each pilot is informed of who else he can contact for assitance.
Now, 1 mission has generated something for 6 people to do. As each itani mission is accepted, another mission is generated either by corvus or serco for an assist on the escort.

The only problem with that is that to intercept someone would be pretty difficult. I mean, they guy buys the weapons from, say, Bractus. He then plots the shortest course possible from there to Serco Sky Command and boosts off.

You would need several players to effectively cover all of Serco space, and they would have to get there quickly. Since the trade runner is going to be going full out to get to sky command, he has a massive advantage. Basically you would just have to be luckily in the right place to make a successful intercept, otherwise the trader is going to blow right past before you can even get in position.

PvP missons like this would be awesome, but they would need some heavy programming and detailed design to ensure they were possible for both sides. I don't know, but I don't think Guild has the time to really do that idea effectively.

Now they could just say "Intercept and destroy any Itani traveling from Bractus to Edras for thirty minutes." You fly to the appropriate wormhole and kill any random Itani that come through. At the same time a mission is generated for Itani saying "Serco Pirate activity between Bractus and Edras - intel suggests they will be in that area for the next (x) minutes (where X is how long the serco player has to patrol the area). Clear the trade route."

Simpler and more doable, I think. With some work your idea would be better, Spellcast, but like I said I don't think that's coming any time soon.

That sounds great on the mission front Spellcast, exactly what I'd like to see, but why have the rewards for interesting missions be level points. That's where I get lost.

The reward should be tied to the mission and universe story. High profit for trades, increased faction standing for helping a faction, secret stuff for getting in good with the black market, special ship for uber nation standing. Level points just seem an arbitrary diversion from game-play. Let people gain items, standing influence, money, secret information ... skill gained should be that of the user not the charactor.

I do agree that if levels must remain it needs to be more fun at the low levels than currently but ... well I won't reiterate my opening post I guess I already stated my initial position clearly enough.

honest as always...

leveling is just boring, killing bots doesnt make you a better fighter. And eleven standing points for traveling 45 Minutes from sector to sector just makes me sad.

I belief its just not dynamic enough.

Everyone should get points for what hes doing no matter if its good or bad... but only as long as he keeps his way.
I like to lose something if i win something.
Makeing decisions, forming my char with my actions, getting special stuff for doing special things.
Becoming a known person depending on the things you did.
Thats something i miss.

And here are some suggestions:

if you work for a faction and earn standing, then you should lose standing on the opposite faction.
Some key missions, with multiple solutions where you define your char.
Gaining access/positions to/of (hidden?) stations because a faction wants you to join their speacial forces.

And something experimental, how about losing you char completly?
For example, fly into a black wormhole, your char dies. Your nation information network states you as killed in action. And you need to choose a new charname and you will lose 5% of you points. Charname whould be blocked for others and you can regain it by getting 5% more points then you had befor. Thats nothing for PvP but maybe something for key missions.

Just some thoughts. The eventuality to lose you char should make people acting more wisely, makes them fear the death.
It whould make the whole game a lot more interesting. Currently there is nothing to lose but money.

>>That sounds great on the mission front Spellcast, exactly what I'd like to see, but why have the rewards for interesting missions be level points. That's where I get lost.>>

Because one way or another there needs to be a limit other than money on what you can and cannot purchase. Reputation points for the missions could accomplish the same thing, and do. The devs have set it up so that both are a factor. Admittedly both need tweaking, but they do serve a very useful function.

Having everything availible, usable and only limited by money drastically reduces the "i want that" factor of a game, which is what keeps people playing. Lets be honest here, A MMORPG would make no money if every player could get everything they wanted within a month or two, and thats what Guildsofware needs, is to turn a profit.

Play any RPG, computerized or otherwise and you will find some form of levels, Most RPG's the levels increase your skills and abilities. In vendetta the levels dont improve your abilities, just the equipment you have the option of using.

I WOULD like to see stations where levels dont matter, You would be able to buy anything for an exhorbitant price there. However, docking with that equipment at any "regular" station would cause a chance at having your ship inspected (perhaps relative to your rep. a better rep reduces your chance of inspection) If you are caught with equipment you are not "supposed" to have (you dont have a license for it). you take a faction hit (say -25 points for each "level" each piece of equipment is above your level, so if you hve a vulture equipped with 2 weapons that are 3 levels higher than you could ordinarily buy, and you get inspected, you loose 150 reputation points with that station [3 levels X 2 items X 25])

I agree with Hoax's first post. I hate to say it but I'm not sure I'd enjoy this type of leveling system. A more skill-based training system is needed. I've already discussed the idea of having hologram type training missions where a player is temporarily thrown into an empty sector with a training ship and training bots (depending on what you're trying to specialize in), but nobody really responded to that much. I don't really care how it's done, but anything that involves less repetition and more real skill is fine by me.

You bring up what I think is a key point Spellcast. Reputation points and other like things can accomplish the same things as generic leveling points. And I agree there should be some limmits on what you can get where/when.

The difference I see is that faction standings are more directly attached to the game and change based on the way you RP your charactor rather than just generic leveling. I think along the lines of what AgY says in his post. I don't mind stats and things in the game being affected by them. But I do want the stats to be determined by my RP'ing choices not arbitrary levels.

I couldn't agree more. After the release of 3.4 I had a few weeks of botting, which was no fun but only annoying. Finally, I had my gauss and my maud and my valk and... left vendetta for more than a month because there wasn't anything more to do.
The same applies to the new version, it's just much more annoying because finding bots is harder, and the universe is bigger. Everyone will just try to level up as fast as they can. If the devs make that levelling even harder, just so the ppl spend more time in game, the players will leave.
So I really think the devs should focus on the faction system, content, etc, or at least make levelling more attractive. And once I have my 12/12/12/12, I still wanna have serious options in gameplay, not just to sit around and grief a newb if I can find one.
Oh, one more thing... I won't go through this lvl stuff again. If there's another reset and I have to do that again for months, without at least a bit more of fun, you can count me out. I'll be playing Tetris instead.

Hoax, you seem to be missing my point. the levels are not arbitrary. (ok the values on them at present are to a point since the devs didnt really spend a huge amount of time balancing them) As you gain in experience you are more trusted with licenses so they let you have access to more stuff. Stop focusing on the word "level" and just consider the XP to be a generic universe-wide reputation that can only go up. i think that any tweaking or modifications of the levels themselves MUST wait untill the devs have a better set of missions in place.

Also: For all we know the skills might be placeholders at present. I would like to see at least a dozen skills instead of the 4 we have now. Break them down farther, perhaps something like the following.

Skills
Light Pilot
Medium Pilot
Heavy Pilot
- (you gain XP in these skills by completing race missions, its a good way to work the old sector 41-46 racetracks back into the game good for additional hulls of the appropriate type, also for each hour you spend flying in the appropriate hull type, you gain an amount of xp in that skill. enough that at low level just flying around exploring will help you gain skill)

Light Energy
Light Missile
Heavy energy
Heavy missile
- (these skills go up each time you damage an opponent with the appropriate weapon type)

Messenger (goes up when you take "deliver this datapad missions")

Transport (goes up on "deliver / retrieve cargo missions")

Commerce (increases anytime you trade cargo for a profit. more profit, more increase)

Obviously there are other possibilities. I think the level system is good at it's base, some of the specifics do need adjusted tho.

I LIKE this last idea of spellcast's a LOT. MUCH more than leveling that we do now.