Forums » Suggestions
Yes, I know this suggestion has been beaten into the ground, but anyway.
I feel shields should be a reduction upon to damage taken to the hull, slowly preventing less until the shields fail. At the beginning it would be a full damage reduction(for x amount of damage) then it would start losing it's effectiveness. The shields will regenerate if it has long enough without being damaged.
I feel shields should be a reduction upon to damage taken to the hull, slowly preventing less until the shields fail. At the beginning it would be a full damage reduction(for x amount of damage) then it would start losing it's effectiveness. The shields will regenerate if it has long enough without being damaged.
Within the current game mechanics it is way too easy to avoid taking damage for any length of time with the faster ships. It is commonly agreed that the faster ships currently are not balance with the slower ones this suggestion would further tilt this balance in the favor of fighters.
Secondly it would be bad for game play since it would generally make the already lengthy fights extend further, also anyone wanting to avoid death could stall long enough to recharge their shields. In the end I think this would drastically decrease the quality of vendetta fighting.
Secondly it would be bad for game play since it would generally make the already lengthy fights extend further, also anyone wanting to avoid death could stall long enough to recharge their shields. In the end I think this would drastically decrease the quality of vendetta fighting.
Well, in the game Freelancer I would just turbo and fly around until my shields came back on. I like the idea of shields only reinforcing armor, but recharge would be slow.
Eldrad: well, people usually just dock in a station and repair. What different is that to shields? I guess in deep space it would make a difference to have shields, but even there, there would be capitals to dock at.
Eldrad: well, people usually just dock in a station and repair. What different is that to shields? I guess in deep space it would make a difference to have shields, but even there, there would be capitals to dock at.
Eldrad: Hence the facts that shields only absorb full damage for a bit, heck, it could even be the first 600damage,(100% reduction), then it can drop, thus running around recharging shields would do little, except afford that trader a bit extra time.
grunadulater, the difference is one can be done anywhere the other you have to get to a very specific place namely the dock. It is infiniately more possible to stop someone from getting to say the dock than it is to stop them from going anywhere they feel like.
Piro, it doesn't matter wether it protects 100% or 90% etc. A fighter would be able to decide they wanted to back off at any time and recharge their sheilds if they had less sheilds. Then if they had more shields they would stay in the fight, until the sheilds were equal again, then they could back off and recharge, if they didn't get first hit next attack they could wait.
Piro, it doesn't matter wether it protects 100% or 90% etc. A fighter would be able to decide they wanted to back off at any time and recharge their sheilds if they had less sheilds. Then if they had more shields they would stay in the fight, until the sheilds were equal again, then they could back off and recharge, if they didn't get first hit next attack they could wait.
Eldrad, consider the practicalities of a shield. You think a little fighter could afford to have a large and cumbersome shield generator onboard? Granted, in the type of game the devs are envisioning, it might be possible, but the performance hit and the electronics he would have to do without might cripple his ship. Perhaps there could be scaled down shield generators, that's a possibility. What would be nice is to see large, powerful shield generators for about every ship larger than an Atlas.
i agree with SC. a fighter would only be able to absorb a marginal amount of damage, whereas a ragnarok could absorb 50-70% damage whilst having 100% shield. that way if you fly in a ragnarok with say 1-3% hull left, if you get hit by a triflare, you still die.
but if you go up against a valkyrie at 100/100, you won't be down to 50% hull just because the other player jumped you.
yes, i know that is contradictory to posts i made in a different thread. i hereby modify my position in that respect a bit (a wee bit!) towards 1v1 balance regardless of ship choice.
but if you go up against a valkyrie at 100/100, you won't be down to 50% hull just because the other player jumped you.
yes, i know that is contradictory to posts i made in a different thread. i hereby modify my position in that respect a bit (a wee bit!) towards 1v1 balance regardless of ship choice.
Well, since really everything so far in this game is a fighter... expect maybe the frigate. Maybe only capital ships should be able to hold the giant shield generators. A capital can't really "escape" when fighters or another capital are attacking it.
What this would do is balance ships a wee bit so we don't get this thing about one little Centurion taking down the frigate after enough time has passed.
Say a frigate's shield can absorb 4000 dmg/second. It's a sort of buffer--it prevents a little Centurion from sitting there with a tachyon and slowly wearing the thing down. The shield's buffer should be rather small, should it start taking more damage than it can produce.
Say a frigate's shield can absorb 4000 dmg/second. It's a sort of buffer--it prevents a little Centurion from sitting there with a tachyon and slowly wearing the thing down. The shield's buffer should be rather small, should it start taking more damage than it can produce.
Make shields a "weapon"... something to put in a large port perhaps. Drains energy, etc.
The system I envision handles the problem in three manners:
1) Shields come in various classes. Smaller ships can only mount smaller shields.
2) The smaller the shield generator the more inefficient it is. In order to obtain the same ammount of protection the more energy it has to use. In this way, a light fighter like a Valk or Vulture couldn't obtain much protection because it just doesn't have enough power.
3) Shields take up an equipment slot. Since smaller ships have fewer equipment slots (for example a Vulture or Centurian has only 3 and a Ragnarok or Wraith has 5), mounting a shield on a fighter is a more difficult decision. You are very likely to discover that some other peice of equipment gives you more advantage than a small shield generator.
1) Shields come in various classes. Smaller ships can only mount smaller shields.
2) The smaller the shield generator the more inefficient it is. In order to obtain the same ammount of protection the more energy it has to use. In this way, a light fighter like a Valk or Vulture couldn't obtain much protection because it just doesn't have enough power.
3) Shields take up an equipment slot. Since smaller ships have fewer equipment slots (for example a Vulture or Centurian has only 3 and a Ragnarok or Wraith has 5), mounting a shield on a fighter is a more difficult decision. You are very likely to discover that some other peice of equipment gives you more advantage than a small shield generator.
The problem is the advantage given to lighter crafts really isn't so quantifiable or constant. The possibilities after implementing this suggestion as I see it are:
a) Make the hvy ships uber. Give them large enough shields relative to the fighters such that no fighter stands a chance against a hvy who's skill is in the same ball park as the other pilot. (obviously that'd be bad balance is a good thing)
b) Make the shields insignificant. (nothing really changes why put them in)
c) The most likely situation is that at lower skill levels a heavy pilot and fighter pilot will remain engaged for an extended period of time allowing the heavy ship to take complete advantage of its shields and therefore gain significant advantage.
When two highly skilled pilots meet (one heavy, one fighter) the fighter pilot would repeatedly engage and disengage (always doing more damage than it receives since it has greater mobility) allowing it to recharge its shield while still whittling down the heavy's.
The third option would exaggerate the problem we already have that higher maneuverability rewards skill more than high armor and large port weapons do.
Additionally fights can already have ridiculously low damage/time ratios. The only time this isn't really true is when there is a large gap in skill or one of the players is typing.
What we need to do is find something that is relatively useless on heavies when the pilot is a newb, but exponentially increases it's effect with the users skill... I don't have a suggestion unfortunately of how to do that... but shields (as proposed here) would be a step in the other direction.
a) Make the hvy ships uber. Give them large enough shields relative to the fighters such that no fighter stands a chance against a hvy who's skill is in the same ball park as the other pilot. (obviously that'd be bad balance is a good thing)
b) Make the shields insignificant. (nothing really changes why put them in)
c) The most likely situation is that at lower skill levels a heavy pilot and fighter pilot will remain engaged for an extended period of time allowing the heavy ship to take complete advantage of its shields and therefore gain significant advantage.
When two highly skilled pilots meet (one heavy, one fighter) the fighter pilot would repeatedly engage and disengage (always doing more damage than it receives since it has greater mobility) allowing it to recharge its shield while still whittling down the heavy's.
The third option would exaggerate the problem we already have that higher maneuverability rewards skill more than high armor and large port weapons do.
Additionally fights can already have ridiculously low damage/time ratios. The only time this isn't really true is when there is a large gap in skill or one of the players is typing.
What we need to do is find something that is relatively useless on heavies when the pilot is a newb, but exponentially increases it's effect with the users skill... I don't have a suggestion unfortunately of how to do that... but shields (as proposed here) would be a step in the other direction.
Shields on something like the prom would be disastrous. If you've ever fought me in one, you'll know giving me shields would be downright satanic :p
Shield generators should only ever come into play for medium-large ships.
Shield generators should only ever come into play for medium-large ships.
I'm totally against the idea of shields unless it's for huge ships like the frigate. I don't like the idea of someone getting hit a lot and escaping as if nothing happened. Most of the energy weapons are already weak as it is, and chasing someone down with anything but rockets is very difficult. I have still yet to understand why the ships don't have two separate battery ports (one for weapon and one for engines). Oh well. You'd also have to consider whether it would tie in with Vendetta's storyline or not. By the looks of it it looks like the devs haven't added any yet, so there might be a reason behind that.
Eldrad... I can never see heavies beating fighters, unless you make them more maneuvrable and faster than a fighter, at which point a fighter is useless... I'd sooner run out of ammo than the heavy would kill me.
Anyway, in the grand scheme of things a fighter should beat a heavy, but a heavy should beat a frig, and a frig should beat a fighter, therefore having a relatively equal shield would be no problem... also, perhaps have certain energy weapons(Gats/tachs) do more damage to the shields while still seeping through? (Gives energy AN example)
Anyway, in the grand scheme of things a fighter should beat a heavy, but a heavy should beat a frig, and a frig should beat a fighter, therefore having a relatively equal shield would be no problem... also, perhaps have certain energy weapons(Gats/tachs) do more damage to the shields while still seeping through? (Gives energy AN example)
Ou! Ou! Stupid Example From Crappy Movies time!
How often do you see a tie-fighter beat the crap out of the Millennium Falcon?
How often do you see a tie-fighter beat the crap out of the Millennium Falcon?
Since when was the millenium faction a heavy bomber? It was a transport with enough defenses to make sure that Lucas could let there be cool space shooting scenes.
If you want heavies to beat frigates and frigates to beat fighters you're going to need to suggest some serrious re-modeling of the entire game. At the moment the way to take out a frigate would be with lots of fighters, since they are able to avoid the frigate's fire without relying on the blind spots which should become very difficult to sit in once the frigate(s) are mobile. Heavies have a lot of trouble since their best weapon against the frigate is the same as fighters (one tach). Any ammo consuming weapon runs out before any significant portion of the frigates hull is dented and the tach has the best damage/energy ratio.
Elrad: If we implement armor as described in my other threads, the tachyon would go from being one of the best anti-capital ship weapons to being one of the worst.
In fact, it was precisely that problem that I originally envisioned armor as curing. Without armor, things like Avalons are not needed.
In fact, it was precisely that problem that I originally envisioned armor as curing. Without armor, things like Avalons are not needed.
Piro, you have the right idea with the concept of acceleration and top speed but I don't think heavies should get raped by fighters so easily as you suggest.
Heavy ships will obviously never be more maneuverable than fighters due to mass. But they need to be tougher to beat. This can be accomplished by giving them better weapons, more armor, or a higher top speed. IMO the latter of the three is the best solution. However, let me get a common misconception out of the way that most people think of when speed and acceleration is discussed. Ships with a higher top speed (bomber) are NOT easier to get away in than a ship with higher acceleration (fighter). Let me explain why.
As proven by the Valkyrie, a ship with an extremely high rate of acceleration can easily dodge a medium or heavy ship that is chasing them from behind, even if they have a higher top speed. Although the chaser's ship has a higher top speed, they will NOT be able to hit the Valkyrie because they'll constantly have to change direction, and since it has a lower rate of acceleration it'll keep slowing down with each turn, whereas the Valkyrie will have a higher recovery rate in speed so it can afford to change directions in a chase. It's the same reason why Ragnaroks are flying targets right now. The Ragnarok can have the same top speed as the Valkyrie, but since it takes FOREVER for the Ragnarok to reach that speed (especially while turning) the Valkyrie will always have the advantage in the chase.
To summarize, fighters can chase bombers. Bombers can't chase fighters. This is what makes fighters unique. They're characterized as being a quick ship that can chase down their target. Even though fighters are weak, they can get out of a situation quickly if they're in danger due to their high acceleration. As long as the fighter pilot is checking his back often and is moving in a zigzag pattern, he'll outrun any ship below his class effectively. Bombers, on the other hand, should require a team of fighters to take down; NOT a single fighter. Or at least it would be hard for a single fighter to take down a bomber in a one on one battle.
Anyway, that's why I feel giving bombers and transports a higher top speed can help balance out the ships. If you want to stay alive in a heavy, you'll need to estimate a safe course and try to maintain as straight of a path to your destination as possible. In the long run this'll help you achieve a faster speed than the fighters, thus effectively outrunning them. On the downside you won't be able to dodge anything that fighter throws at you if you have any intention of having the speed advantage. During sharp turns, half your engine's powers will be dedicated to straightening out your heavy ship rather than moving forward quickly.
That's the balancing factor. That's what prevents bombers from becoming fighters. That's what prevents bombers from chasing fighters down and destroying them. That's why fighters will continue to have an important (and probably a dominant) role in the game.
Heavy ships will obviously never be more maneuverable than fighters due to mass. But they need to be tougher to beat. This can be accomplished by giving them better weapons, more armor, or a higher top speed. IMO the latter of the three is the best solution. However, let me get a common misconception out of the way that most people think of when speed and acceleration is discussed. Ships with a higher top speed (bomber) are NOT easier to get away in than a ship with higher acceleration (fighter). Let me explain why.
As proven by the Valkyrie, a ship with an extremely high rate of acceleration can easily dodge a medium or heavy ship that is chasing them from behind, even if they have a higher top speed. Although the chaser's ship has a higher top speed, they will NOT be able to hit the Valkyrie because they'll constantly have to change direction, and since it has a lower rate of acceleration it'll keep slowing down with each turn, whereas the Valkyrie will have a higher recovery rate in speed so it can afford to change directions in a chase. It's the same reason why Ragnaroks are flying targets right now. The Ragnarok can have the same top speed as the Valkyrie, but since it takes FOREVER for the Ragnarok to reach that speed (especially while turning) the Valkyrie will always have the advantage in the chase.
To summarize, fighters can chase bombers. Bombers can't chase fighters. This is what makes fighters unique. They're characterized as being a quick ship that can chase down their target. Even though fighters are weak, they can get out of a situation quickly if they're in danger due to their high acceleration. As long as the fighter pilot is checking his back often and is moving in a zigzag pattern, he'll outrun any ship below his class effectively. Bombers, on the other hand, should require a team of fighters to take down; NOT a single fighter. Or at least it would be hard for a single fighter to take down a bomber in a one on one battle.
Anyway, that's why I feel giving bombers and transports a higher top speed can help balance out the ships. If you want to stay alive in a heavy, you'll need to estimate a safe course and try to maintain as straight of a path to your destination as possible. In the long run this'll help you achieve a faster speed than the fighters, thus effectively outrunning them. On the downside you won't be able to dodge anything that fighter throws at you if you have any intention of having the speed advantage. During sharp turns, half your engine's powers will be dedicated to straightening out your heavy ship rather than moving forward quickly.
That's the balancing factor. That's what prevents bombers from becoming fighters. That's what prevents bombers from chasing fighters down and destroying them. That's why fighters will continue to have an important (and probably a dominant) role in the game.