Forums » Suggestions
Double Avalon and TU mine ammo, keep reload costs the same.
Shouldn't drastically affect gameplay outside of making these more useful. particularly avalon stacks.
Shouldn't drastically affect gameplay outside of making these more useful. particularly avalon stacks.
+1
You say it shouldn't drastically affect gameplay, but for the purposes of clarity, against what content are you suggesting this change would make them more useful and why would this be good thing in the big picture?
Sure, I haven't sought out or used Avalons, so I'm assuming the typical targets are capital-class targets. Should these be made easier to kill by increasing the capacity of these weapons?
This sounds like a change intended to make difficult targets easier for a single player to kill, or perhaps I've completely missed the mark.
Sure, I haven't sought out or used Avalons, so I'm assuming the typical targets are capital-class targets. Should these be made easier to kill by increasing the capacity of these weapons?
This sounds like a change intended to make difficult targets easier for a single player to kill, or perhaps I've completely missed the mark.
-1
When you have a chance, could you expand on your suggestion so I can see why this is needed in the VO universe? (see Rule #5 )
As it is right now, players can use ships, such as the Heavy Miner MkII Behemoth, to fire upwards of 12 avalons (or six TU mines) in one go before reloading. These moths are already used to deshield Leviathans. Is there a real need to fire more than that?
When you have a chance, could you expand on your suggestion so I can see why this is needed in the VO universe? (see Rule #5 )
As it is right now, players can use ships, such as the Heavy Miner MkII Behemoth, to fire upwards of 12 avalons (or six TU mines) in one go before reloading. These moths are already used to deshield Leviathans. Is there a real need to fire more than that?
I think it's a great idea!
dude no one's gonna take a moth miner 2 with 3 tu's on it out, it'll weigh north of 50,000kg and won't be usable for anything, as for increasing the ammo it makes solo without capships more viable as it is right now despite the lowered ammo it's still pretty easy to pull off granted stuff isn't moving.
where this really shines would be deneb where it would give avbombers an edge over traditional spamrags.
Avs are still much harder to use than swarms to deshield, this change doesn't break anything just makes more explosions and more fun!
where this really shines would be deneb where it would give avbombers an edge over traditional spamrags.
Avs are still much harder to use than swarms to deshield, this change doesn't break anything just makes more explosions and more fun!
Everything should not be "soloable" in a multiplayer game.
+1
"Everything should not be soloable in a multiplayer game"
I cant think of a single thing in VO currently that one player cant kill on their own. Leviathans are soloable by time stacking them, and HAC doesnt move much so its also soloable via the same route.
Currently i dont see any reason to NOT raise their ammo if it just affects deneb, i dont see it changing gameplay at all besides that.
"Everything should not be soloable in a multiplayer game"
I cant think of a single thing in VO currently that one player cant kill on their own. Leviathans are soloable by time stacking them, and HAC doesnt move much so its also soloable via the same route.
Currently i dont see any reason to NOT raise their ammo if it just affects deneb, i dont see it changing gameplay at all besides that.
"Everything should not be soloable in a multiplayer game"
I cant think of a single thing in VO currently that one player cant kill on their own. Leviathans are soloable by time stacking them, and HAC doesnt move much so its also soloable via the same route.
Just to clarify the point: he didn't say everything wasn't soloable, he said everything should not be soloable. And he's right.
The fact that longstanding problems exist around certain high-level content, doesn't mean that we should then use that as an excuse to further strengthen other major weapons to a point where things being "non-soloable" becomes even less likely.
In terms of the main OP, I'm not against increasing Avalon ammo, but probably when there's another tradeoff that places other limitations on their efficacy (like the ability to be prioritized and destroyed by defensive capgauss fire).
I cant think of a single thing in VO currently that one player cant kill on their own. Leviathans are soloable by time stacking them, and HAC doesnt move much so its also soloable via the same route.
Just to clarify the point: he didn't say everything wasn't soloable, he said everything should not be soloable. And he's right.
The fact that longstanding problems exist around certain high-level content, doesn't mean that we should then use that as an excuse to further strengthen other major weapons to a point where things being "non-soloable" becomes even less likely.
In terms of the main OP, I'm not against increasing Avalon ammo, but probably when there's another tradeoff that places other limitations on their efficacy (like the ability to be prioritized and destroyed by defensive capgauss fire).
(like the ability to be prioritized and destroyed by defensive capgauss fire).
It's almost impossible to hit anything with Avalons that isn't sitting perfectly still with one, let alone enough to drop shields.
Even against stationary targets, stacking them up makes you the easiest thing to kill in the sector. If every NPC automagically started shooting the nukes as I launch them (insta-killing me in the blast, of course.) I'd probably quit using them entirely. Swarms are just solid reliable.
You guys already over-nerfed mines into joke status. Please don't do that again.
It's almost impossible to hit anything with Avalons that isn't sitting perfectly still with one, let alone enough to drop shields.
Even against stationary targets, stacking them up makes you the easiest thing to kill in the sector. If every NPC automagically started shooting the nukes as I launch them (insta-killing me in the blast, of course.) I'd probably quit using them entirely. Swarms are just solid reliable.
You guys already over-nerfed mines into joke status. Please don't do that again.
I'd probably quit using them entirely. Swarms are just solid reliable.
Minus the fact that avalons also give you vastly, vastly more damage potential even when you don't reload? Doubling their ammo would make them so ridiculous they would need some sort of mitigating factor so big dumb capships don't just watch them come in. I'd hope they'd have a level of inaccuracy (much like I'd suggest for bots shooting mines, because it's dumb 30 of them, in unison, will stop and perfectly snipe mines out of the air), but it's still a valid concept.
Minus the fact that avalons also give you vastly, vastly more damage potential even when you don't reload? Doubling their ammo would make them so ridiculous they would need some sort of mitigating factor so big dumb capships don't just watch them come in. I'd hope they'd have a level of inaccuracy (much like I'd suggest for bots shooting mines, because it's dumb 30 of them, in unison, will stop and perfectly snipe mines out of the air), but it's still a valid concept.
It's almost impossible to hit anything with Avalons that isn't sitting perfectly still with one, let alone enough to drop shields.
In the past, Inc has said that his eventual goal with avalons is the ability to make minor course adjustments.
- Make them minimally guided (they would miss if the target moved much).
- Give them a long lifespan.
- Make their speed relatively slow.
2011
Note, they are not intended to be "seriously" homing; but rather, configuring them as a homing missile is a way of making them fixed-speed. 2018
Anyway, we can probably have some minimal spin constant that will allow the desired limited-homing behaviour. 2019
Once the devs implement this behavior, hitting things that have minor drift should become less frustrating.
In the past, Inc has said that his eventual goal with avalons is the ability to make minor course adjustments.
- Make them minimally guided (they would miss if the target moved much).
- Give them a long lifespan.
- Make their speed relatively slow.
2011
Note, they are not intended to be "seriously" homing; but rather, configuring them as a homing missile is a way of making them fixed-speed. 2018
Anyway, we can probably have some minimal spin constant that will allow the desired limited-homing behaviour. 2019
Once the devs implement this behavior, hitting things that have minor drift should become less frustrating.
Until then slapping extra ammo on these two addons wouldn't hurt - particularly the TU mine; given how difficult using Avalons is and how it makes a spaceboat vulnerable compared to a spamrag it's ridiculous to me that the chaos swarms packs a significant fraction of the damage whilst remaining viable against light fighters, particularly NPCs.
We could settle on bringing the AV ammo up 25~50% instead of 100, as it stands the TU needs changes and the avalons whilst not being in need of "fixing" much sorely lacks viability relative to a good ol spamrag given their "cost" and difficulty to field effectively in sectors full of angry NPC's.
Torukia, There's no multiplayer game where something isn't soloable between multiboxing and gaining insight into the game's logic, HAC's are already soloable without much difficulty as they typically don't freakin' budge during skirms, and someone who's packing avalons in a border skirm mission where players are present will get chewed up and taken out of the sector by another player in short order due to the current mechanics of stacking avalons.
Hell if this is about HAC's becoming too easy to take down they could just get a corresponding bump to shield regen as it's much easier to coordinate missile stacks with spamrags than it is with avalons.
Ionic you said it yourself avalons have more damage potential, applying the damage though that's another story and you know it as well as I do the fire and forget nature of the spamrag just means you dock, dump the load on whatever cap your whittling down reload target fire, rinse-repeat... you're going to be putting, an order of magnitude more damage into whatever capship that's ~1800m away from you with your spamrag doing this whereas putting avs into non-stationary targets at 1000m is practically impossible.
Finally without going too far off topic here the whole "soloable" point is pretty fuckin' moot if you ask me, with time everything becomes soloable the only thing we're actually talking about here is the difficulty curve...
We could settle on bringing the AV ammo up 25~50% instead of 100, as it stands the TU needs changes and the avalons whilst not being in need of "fixing" much sorely lacks viability relative to a good ol spamrag given their "cost" and difficulty to field effectively in sectors full of angry NPC's.
Torukia, There's no multiplayer game where something isn't soloable between multiboxing and gaining insight into the game's logic, HAC's are already soloable without much difficulty as they typically don't freakin' budge during skirms, and someone who's packing avalons in a border skirm mission where players are present will get chewed up and taken out of the sector by another player in short order due to the current mechanics of stacking avalons.
Hell if this is about HAC's becoming too easy to take down they could just get a corresponding bump to shield regen as it's much easier to coordinate missile stacks with spamrags than it is with avalons.
Ionic you said it yourself avalons have more damage potential, applying the damage though that's another story and you know it as well as I do the fire and forget nature of the spamrag just means you dock, dump the load on whatever cap your whittling down reload target fire, rinse-repeat... you're going to be putting, an order of magnitude more damage into whatever capship that's ~1800m away from you with your spamrag doing this whereas putting avs into non-stationary targets at 1000m is practically impossible.
Finally without going too far off topic here the whole "soloable" point is pretty fuckin' moot if you ask me, with time everything becomes soloable the only thing we're actually talking about here is the difficulty curve...
Easy fix to the the Avalon moth becoming "overpowered" which is pretty laughable concept given how pathetically vulnerable an Avalon fit miner moth is would be to increase Avalon grid to 8, this would then make the centaur the best Avalon boat around which would create a bit more diversity in Deneb instead of the current, just throw Spamrags at everything until the missions over "meta".
If this were to happen it then gives the "late-game" Tunguska centaur a role which won't be fulfilled as well by any other ship.
Now that I think about it it'll make farming the unknown system a bit faster which afaik isn't going to cause issues for anyone and if the greater community were to take issue with this the easy fix is simply to make the NPC's a bit more aggressive... but that's for another post.
PS: This 15 minute edit shit is a pain in my ass and doesn't help making concise and well formatted suggestions posts... but at this point I'm pissin' in the wind.
If this were to happen it then gives the "late-game" Tunguska centaur a role which won't be fulfilled as well by any other ship.
Now that I think about it it'll make farming the unknown system a bit faster which afaik isn't going to cause issues for anyone and if the greater community were to take issue with this the easy fix is simply to make the NPC's a bit more aggressive... but that's for another post.
PS: This 15 minute edit shit is a pain in my ass and doesn't help making concise and well formatted suggestions posts... but at this point I'm pissin' in the wind.
with time everything becomes soloable the only thing we're actually talking about here is the difficulty curve...
By this you seem to mean "Incarnate has left things pretty easy for a long time, and therefore all things will always be this way". That is mistaken.
By this you seem to mean "Incarnate has left things pretty easy for a long time, and therefore all things will always be this way". That is mistaken.
Dude don't derail my threads I already do that plenty on my own.
+.5
Avalons should have more ammo but decrease lifespan sitting 4k out (if you want your avalons going 30) and hitting shit with heavy shields. Isnt very hard to do but getting close enough where you get hit (ex. Gauss, bots, ect.) That takes skill to solo npcs with heavy shields.
Spidey no one is "derailing" anything inc and everyone else is providing incite to this "SUGGESTION"
Rule #3 - Be respectful of other players and play-styles with your Suggestions and feedback.
Be respectful of other individuals. Critique the Suggestion and not the Person. Don't be rude.
This is a "sandbox" MMO, people can play as traders, or pirates, or miners, or any number of other other potential options, and all be just as "legitimate" in their place in the VO Universe.
Avalons should have more ammo but decrease lifespan sitting 4k out (if you want your avalons going 30) and hitting shit with heavy shields. Isnt very hard to do but getting close enough where you get hit (ex. Gauss, bots, ect.) That takes skill to solo npcs with heavy shields.
Spidey no one is "derailing" anything inc and everyone else is providing incite to this "SUGGESTION"
Rule #3 - Be respectful of other players and play-styles with your Suggestions and feedback.
Be respectful of other individuals. Critique the Suggestion and not the Person. Don't be rude.
This is a "sandbox" MMO, people can play as traders, or pirates, or miners, or any number of other other potential options, and all be just as "legitimate" in their place in the VO Universe.
.increase Avalon grid to 8, this would then make the centaur the best Avalon boat around which would create a bit more diversity in Deneb instead of the current, just throw Spamrags at everything until the missions over "meta".
I don't see how that would change anything in Deneb. It's already a lot easier to deshield hacs with av centaurs compared to spam rags.
I don't see how that would change anything in Deneb. It's already a lot easier to deshield hacs with av centaurs compared to spam rags.
Dude don't derail my threads I already do that plenty on my own.
Considering that the impact on solo-ability was one of my primary concerns, and I was responding to your contention that "everything will eventually be solo-able", I am definitely not derailing anything.
I have a lot of plans around content, and those plans include things that are specifically not meant to be solo-able. So, significantly increasing the potential damage of a single vessel, by increasing its torpedo ammo capacity, is something I need to consider carefully in context with those plans.
Considering that the impact on solo-ability was one of my primary concerns, and I was responding to your contention that "everything will eventually be solo-able", I am definitely not derailing anything.
I have a lot of plans around content, and those plans include things that are specifically not meant to be solo-able. So, significantly increasing the potential damage of a single vessel, by increasing its torpedo ammo capacity, is something I need to consider carefully in context with those plans.
Well the next "easy" fix I have until further Avalon changes are ready would be to reduce the damage of each projectile not quite in line with the increased ammo count to give it a bit more potential oomf and dropping the Avalon's speed down to 5m/s to make it a little easier to keep the stack together.
This would increase the time required to dump the entirety of the tube thereby increasing the vulnerability window on an already vulnerable target and giving Avalons a grid to 8 increase makes plenty of sense I mean you're packin' some sorta nuke that takes a decent amount of energy to arm fitting limitations make plenty of sense.
The speed and damage decrease would have the added bonus of decreasing the efficacy of the "poor man's TU" which is a phenomenal technique that turns the two spaceboats with inline large ports into a one shot instant delete platform for anything with less than 10k armor in a ~170m radius by putting the Avalon behind any mine launcher and triggering them simultaneously to generate a marvelous display; that's the role of the TU mine and the TU mine desperately needs some love.
They don't suck by any means at the moment they're extremely unwieldly to the point of silliness when it comes to their "intended" use... again except on completely stationary targets
*there's no way this next paragraph hasn't already been suggested before, but what the hell here goes*
Another solution thought this one is without a doubt less trivial would be to give a remote detonate command that works on mines and Avalons that way all all the near misses (typically when Avalons miss against a target it isn't by much) That said if that one gets implemented I would keep them as is without any changes to ammo/damage and they'd require a 10 second arm time as to not make them completely ridiculous against subcaps.
As it currently stands a rag with a couple avalon tubes can still pack a full rack of small port weapons and when adequately piloted can still hold it's own against smaller less armored subcaps either with flares or a complement of rails and geminis and yeah the game's most powerful bombing platform shouldn't really stand a chance against all the other subcaps.
Onto the subject of soloability; I can cite the case of Eve-Online's incursions that were specifically designed to force players into cooperating large fleets of 20~30 players logistics wing etc... it only took 6 months before some dude was firing up 40 instances running them alone with impressive consistency; g'luck I wouldn't put it past vo's players to crack whatever you throw at them in a few months.
Currently in VO alternative to av-stacking from stupid distances is much more trivial and requires to line up 3 spamrags to do a full speed turbo stack at an angle to the the target wiping out the shields, making avalons more a bit more viable would go a long way to discourage an ostensibly silly practice and last but not least how could/should I have any idea about the content you've got planned in the pipe?.. jeez
This would increase the time required to dump the entirety of the tube thereby increasing the vulnerability window on an already vulnerable target and giving Avalons a grid to 8 increase makes plenty of sense I mean you're packin' some sorta nuke that takes a decent amount of energy to arm fitting limitations make plenty of sense.
The speed and damage decrease would have the added bonus of decreasing the efficacy of the "poor man's TU" which is a phenomenal technique that turns the two spaceboats with inline large ports into a one shot instant delete platform for anything with less than 10k armor in a ~170m radius by putting the Avalon behind any mine launcher and triggering them simultaneously to generate a marvelous display; that's the role of the TU mine and the TU mine desperately needs some love.
They don't suck by any means at the moment they're extremely unwieldly to the point of silliness when it comes to their "intended" use... again except on completely stationary targets
*there's no way this next paragraph hasn't already been suggested before, but what the hell here goes*
Another solution thought this one is without a doubt less trivial would be to give a remote detonate command that works on mines and Avalons that way all all the near misses (typically when Avalons miss against a target it isn't by much) That said if that one gets implemented I would keep them as is without any changes to ammo/damage and they'd require a 10 second arm time as to not make them completely ridiculous against subcaps.
As it currently stands a rag with a couple avalon tubes can still pack a full rack of small port weapons and when adequately piloted can still hold it's own against smaller less armored subcaps either with flares or a complement of rails and geminis and yeah the game's most powerful bombing platform shouldn't really stand a chance against all the other subcaps.
Onto the subject of soloability; I can cite the case of Eve-Online's incursions that were specifically designed to force players into cooperating large fleets of 20~30 players logistics wing etc... it only took 6 months before some dude was firing up 40 instances running them alone with impressive consistency; g'luck I wouldn't put it past vo's players to crack whatever you throw at them in a few months.
Currently in VO alternative to av-stacking from stupid distances is much more trivial and requires to line up 3 spamrags to do a full speed turbo stack at an angle to the the target wiping out the shields, making avalons more a bit more viable would go a long way to discourage an ostensibly silly practice and last but not least how could/should I have any idea about the content you've got planned in the pipe?.. jeez