New players should not be forced to stay in nation space in any way. A lot of newbs do exactly what I just said above. They take the risks,

And taking a risk means they might die while trying to equip weapons their license levels don't yet support.

even veterans who just want to equip addons they cannot get elsewhere for some reason.

If someone is a veteran, they can already equip all addons. Or they have access to the conq stations.

But to ask the question, what benefits this would have to the playerbase?

Nation space has gotten very safe (for example, shooting in the nfz is no longer allowed). It is time for grey to get more scary and interesting. Quickly being able to lay a mine field before moving expensive cargo from I8 (or any other station) should be an activity open to everyone, not just capship owners.

But there should be a limit on how much you can bully players.

A single av takes out mine fields in M7. How is that bullying?

As too much of it can make lots of players to ragequit, especially newbs who just want to have fun amd getting started in game,

Then those players should not be in a clandestine grey space station that is not on the map. If veteran players are telling new players to go to M7, then maybe that is the issue. Stop telling noobs to go places where they are going to get killed easily.

So again, what positives this would have for everyone, not just players who are only here to piss off others?

This suggestion has nothing to do about pissing people off.

I know i'm getting kinda off-topic, because I actually don't particularly care for or against the OP - my only thing against it is already highlited as that rules aren't being universally applied, which could be argued given this is an unlisted station anyways, but WAF has brought up something that REALLLLLLLY bothers me.

Just highliting this, since i've been basically screaming it every time I see someone say something about "Oh, just go to M7":

Stop telling noobs to go places where they are going to get killed easily.

Its not on the map, as WAF says. they SHOULD NOT be there. it shouldn't be reccomended for them to go there. This is a failing on our part as a community.

If a pilot can't equip an item, then they should be told to work on licenses, not to try and rely on things they cannot naturally obtain. If they rely on these things, then it'll only lead to heightened frustration when they lose them, despite that such items are usually just relatively available.

licenses are no longer capped like they once were for f2p pilots, and licenses aren't that hard to grind out even with only some basic flight understanding and a TOUCH of guidance.

this is just a personal feeling of mine, but I do think you pilots out there, teaching new pilots about these mechanics when they're too new to understand the game, you are treading a really dangerous line. New pilots AREN"T usually being told about the severe danger that greyspace is/should_be (whether you feel its dangerous or not doesn't match how it actually is for new pilots, who - even if they never meet a player pirate, still might run into unrats, random dynamic hives, or even just the faction blockades. Lots of new pilots rage because they don't understand their uselessly heavy setups they were RECOMMENDED to go get aren't able to out-manuever blockades!)

Bringing new pilots to hidden stations is an either misguided/outdated practice, or you're just trying to shoot at new pilots. I don't think its usually the latter, unfortunately.

Mines are a troll weapon. You aren't using skills, you don't need to be actively playing. Just dump em in strategic locations and get kills. Station mining is an absolute troll use of a troll weapon. Be a pain in the ass for what, placing a mine somewhere and going back about your work as usual? If trolling is to be allowed, there should atleast be some effort in it. Either get a capship and do it or take the effort of flying to another station.

The defensive weapon for solo pilots is a moot point. The chance of a solo pilot being caught by hostiles are more if he hangs around M7 laying mines which will protect him only once. You think anyone's gonna lay mines around M7 for half an hour to haul a part in, which will take less than 3 minutes? Much faster to give the station a quick spot in a fast ship before hauling the part in, or place an alt in there as a spotter for a few minutes.

You think anyone's gonna lay mines around M7 for half an hour to haul a part in, which will take less than 3 minutes?

I did when I solo hauling parts in. And it protected my butt. Got kills on pirates. It used to be standard operating procedure when hauling EHA's and what not into m7. Except it didn't take a half hour, because I could dock right in M7 to reload. It took about 6 minutes to protect hundred million credit items.

I know i'm getting kinda off-topic, because I actually don't particularly care for or against the OP - my only thing against it is already highlited as that rules aren't being universally applied, which could be argued given this is an unlisted station anyways,

A minor thought on this, Luxen, players can already dock in conq stations if they have mines out. Which are also unmonitored stations that are not on the map. So perhaps the idea should be: unmonitored stations allow for weapons in flight while docking.

M7 is too important to be used for mine wars. Odia M14 would be ok but to stop campers griefing new players how about a random teleport mission that moves you to a station you are not hated at.

-1 I see no reason to have a mine war in a station sector. This only sounds like it would be useful to steal goods used to make capital ships and trades that may be done in the sector. I see no benefit to the preposed request to dock with mines in flight.

M7 is too important to be used for mine wars.

I don't understand where this narrative is coming from. This is a clandestine grey space station that is not on a map. It is unmonitored space. This is not a high security area like a capital or a training sector.

This only sounds like it would be useful to steal goods used to make capital ships and trades that may be done in the sector.

Pirates can already hide in the fog of m7 and wait for a moth to come in, and then sweep in and kill it. In fact, on a pirate alt, I have already done this before. If the player in a moth had a mine field out, I would have died.

I see no benefit to the preposed request to dock with mines in flight.

The value is the potential for protection. Yes, some players will use them offensively, and some will use them defensively, but all players should have an equal chance to use mines in M7 effectively. Not just those with access to a capital ship.

M7 is the only station you can build capital ships, it’s the only station where new players can equip higher licence weapons.

Allowing griefers even more scope to drive people out of the game is a stupid idea.

If you must play at mine a station do it somewhere else.

M7 is the only station you can build capital ships,
And as a result, should, in my opinion, be one of the most dangerous sectors in the game.

it’s the only station where new players can equip higher license weapons.
Which are not needed to develop their character or progress. In fact, while I don't agree with ships and add-ons being limited by license level (standing, achievement, and price should determine access), I wish this ability were removed. Let me make myself clear: I do not think that this is important to the game.

Allowing griefers even more scope to drive people out of the game is a stupid idea.
Ah. The hypothetical griefer and the hypothetical newby. I may have missed it, but I did not see an answer to my question about why docking was disabled for weapons use. It could very well be that this is a valid reason if that were a factor in GS's decision. However, as was pointed out, it just takes an avalon to eliminate mines near a station. However, I have to question what measurement is being used to define griefer. Scoring a kill or three off of inattentive or inexperienced players does not measure up in my book. And anyone that can't fight for themselves has no business homing at a station like M7 (in my opinion of course)

I'm for anything that encourages more conflict in the game. I get bored flying around looking to shoot someone or get shot at depending on the toon I'm playing.

If you must play at mine a station do it somewhere else.
Alternatives have been suggested. However, because 'I' think M7 should be extremely dangerous, I am not persuaded by the arguments presented.

Oh, and could someone remind me how to quote? sigh..

Guys, lets keep comments about people out of this, focus on the suggestion itself.

Death Fluffy, afaik, there is no dedicated "quote" bbcode here, do you mean to use italics perhaps? use [ i ]text[ / i ]

IToken said:
it’s the only station where new players can equip higher license weapons.

And my entire post above was why this is not a good thing to recommend or allow. Can you define why this is a positive and even protected? Even if it were beneficial, why can't it be more dangerous, in-line with greyspace?

it’s the only station where new players can equip higher licence weapons.

This is incorrect. There are four stations in the galaxy where new characters can equip addons regardless of their license levels.

Id like to bring up the fact that there are 4 stations that are off the map that can have any addons equipped without license requirements. And I’d also like to point out that 3 of these stations people literally die to even get a chance to obtain the station to use its resources. So I’m very confused on this agenda of worrying for new players safety on a station. That is the literal last step, the last station needed to get everything together to create the cap ships that would take months or even years to build. Why is a new player (1 week old to like 3months IMO) bothering with a station that shouldn't be introduced till later on.

-1
This will make greifing too easy. It can still be done, just takes some effort under current rules.

Who wants the game to promote lazy pirating? That benefits no one. Pirates are supposed to be clever and witty, so their entertainment value helps offset all the disruption and tragedy they bring down on society.

"Defensive mining" of a station sounds like BS to me. Dropping conc or gravity mines while running away: That's "defensive". Lets call a spade a spade here. This is all about making griefing easier.

-1

Docking was disabled because people were sitting in stations with alts, waiting for a player to arrive, and dumping missiles into the sector then fleeing back into the station over and over.. among other things.

Now you cant use stations as a base of operation for combat. Anything that can be abused will be abused.

Thank you ScotiaKnight. This explanation makes sense to me as a reason why we would not want this back in the game. I don't accept that trident builders should be safe in M7. I cringe at the argument that new players equiping addons they havent earned should be safe at M7. I wasn't around at the time this was an issue, but I do recall some fun battles just outside the Sedina D14 station.

Also, thank you Luxen!

Mines are a horrible weapon of war. They are used to control or limit an opponents ability to cross certain territory or access a point of interest. To suggest that 'pirates' using them is 'lazy' griefing doest work for me. If mines were meant to be exclusively defensive, they would not have been given long lifespans. To me, this means that they are also intended to create a web or trap at key points such as a wormhole or station. At most stations this is now useless as the guards to my understanding now clear them. In my experience, piracy is more about opportunism or entrapment. I don't think it is anyone's place to define another players playstyle for them, whether they be pirate, trader or nationalist.

That said, I find that I am more invested in the argument than the op. While I find the premise of the op interesting, most of the arguments against hit on what I don't like in vo.

+1, M7 needs to be a much more dangerous place.

This thread some people in this thread are presenting a ridiculous amount of cognitive dissonance.

NEW. PLAYERS. SHOULD. NOT. BE. THERE.

Luxen made it very clear. It's an endgame station where a rogue corporation manufactures unlicensed copies of capital ships.

If we set aside discussions of what "should" be dangerous, and to what degree, for a moment..

It seems like a big part of the contention here is whether the engagement is voluntary or not. Some people aren't interested in getting mined into a station by trolls. Other people want to have some kind of fun mine-based PvP, a-la:

Some of the most contentious historical pvp battles in Latos M-7 started because players were battling over mines on the docks in Latos M-7.

So, that raises the simple question of: Why not just put it at some other station that has no intrinsic value? There are some weird historical stations, like the little round station and stuff, which could be swapped out for something else. Then people can go there specifically to have mining battles, but it doesn't open up trolling issues around stations that are actively used by the broader community?

Is the goal here to have this mining-based gameplay opportunity in some specific location, or is the goal to have it in M7, where there is an increased likelihood of engaging someone who is not expecting it? Because those are different use-cases.

Why not just put it at some other station that has no intrinsic value?

Inc,

The station is not just a random flag in a sector that people are trying to capture for funsies. It has a sort of value. There is a reason to be there. So yes, there is that chance for non-consensual combat. Also, there no guards/sf there shooting the mines. Mines get removed by players or by time only.

It is kind of like a conq station battle, except to hold it, you have to be actively engaged in combat.

M7 used to be a tinderbox for large, intense, long lasting engagements between opposing forces. The match that lit these battles normally would be one person dropping mines on another in M7. Sometimes offensively placed mines, some times defensively. The order of battle normally goes like this

1) Player A lays mines
2) Player B logs into M7, and undocks and dies at the exit dock (or tries to dock and dies at an entry dock)
3) Player B Comes back and starts destroying mines and dropping their own.
4) Player A comes out and lays more mines.
5) Player B calls in reinforcements to deal with Player A.
6) Player A dies a lot to the reinforcements.
7) Player A calls in their own reinforcements.
8) Giant 4 hour long battle ensues

Both sides burn through loads of ships and addons that they pre-staged in M7. This is what makes this style of combat interesting to me. The only ships sold there are EC-89s, and the addons are just gov issue stuff.

Because the station is fogged, people only notice incoming avalons at the last moment. (The avalons are used for clearing the mines)

The only place i could see this being moved to, would be the station in the race tube sector. BUT that station would need to be fogged, and given some kind of reason for people to go there, so it would not just be a boring arena. Give it a new manu mission or five.

I'm not asking for the in flight restriction to be removed galaxy wide. Just in a single interesting sector.

/semi-off-topic-as-always

Though if you enabled an event station such as that, i'd definitely find a way to build an event around it. We already almost have a station for that, in fact - the station race track in Sedina.