So first of all i would like to thanks incarnate for speaking his mind/idea publically which he mostly avoid due to players accusing him of falsehoods & calling him biased which isn't true at all.

Secondly , i would like to suggest incarnate to reconsider & give this a bit more thought about how it is going to help in station conquering balance ? I mean a group of players will still be able to hold stations for longer periods of time.. & someone will probably then reopen a thread complaining again how it is unfair & still need balance etc.

Like if you're in a group of 3 players trying to oppose a group of 8 players , you won't be able hold station for long time especially if your opponent group is better at organizing stuff. You might find a hour or two to haul parts & most likely lose station access before you manage to complete any big parts & then complain about getting your 2-3 hours of work stolen...

Another possiblity:- Some players can purposely key other players & revoke their station keys anytime to steal their capital ship parts components sitting in station any time they want.

I like this idea but i don't really see how it's going to balance station conquering.

I like this idea but i don't really see how it's going to balance station conquering.

I mean.. it isn't supposed to. This isn't the thread about that subject. We have another thread going about that, eslewhere. We aren't trying to solve that problem here, we're talking about the concept of "pillaging" inventories, or related conquest-rewards.

As has been suggested on this thread, make the cargo contents available, but only after the station has been held for some time. Say 24 hours. However, my concern here is in the following scenario:

Group A currently has ownership of the station. Trader X buys/gets a key from Group A, on the trust that Group A can hold the station, and if conquered by Group B, it can take it back within 24 hours.

Group B attacks and conquers the station. Now all items stored in the station by everyone are available to them in 24 hours.

Group A takes the station back, and redistributes keys as before. But the situation that has occurred here, is that Group A now has access to everyone's inventory within 24 hours, including the people whom they gave keys to. If they choose to hold back giving keys for 24 hours, they can take Trader X's inventory.
So even if one group successfully maintains a hold over the stations, the people getting user keys from them are at risk.

Group A takes the station back, and redistributes keys as before. But the situation that has occurred here, is that Group A now has access to everyone's inventory within 24 hours, including the people whom they gave keys to. If they choose to hold back giving keys for 24 hours, they can take Trader X's inventory.
So even if one group successfully maintains a hold over the stations, the people getting user keys from them are at risk.

No.. that's what I meant by, in a re-conquest scenario, you would re-use the same key. Trader X would already have the key, and usage of the key would simply revert ownership as-it-was prior.

Regardless of when Group A took the station back (within 24h, or after), all previously-owned contents still in the station would revert to their prior owners, without Group A gaining any "plundering" benefit from the conquest (unless Group B had added new stuff in the interim).

Now, if Group A chose to utilize a different key, then it would be regarded as a new conquest, and now you basically have Group A being a bunch of un-trustworthy dicks. BUT, Group A would also have to wait 24h even to gain access to their own personal inventories.

"But, at some point, I think conceptual "conquest" is an interesting thing. It could engage people with defending against an encroaching Hive, if they start to directly threaten stations.. there are lots of things that come out of it."

I always wanted to see either a Levi or a Queen or a hoard of hive try to destroy a station. The various npc cappies and SF would go to town.

Sorry incarnate if my post confused you a bit, i agree they're two different subjects & two different threads but they're somehow connected because the idea came from such thread. Basically to lure players into station combat & make it rewarding for conquerable station owners. I agree it's a good idea but how it is going to help the game as a whole ?..

There are some players who likes others things like Trading , Mining , Farming & Manufacturing. Most of those players spent both real money for premium sub & time to grind basically. This suggestion could be rewarding for combat players who wants to shoot stuff in game but it's not rewarding for other neutral/peaceful players. They're most likely going to suffer because of this.

So you have a new player who wants to build capship & paid credits to get station access key & hauled items/parts in their behemoth xc slowly to finish big parts on day 1 & logged off, next day he finds out the station has changed hands & all of his items has been lost due to that, I don't think it is good for the game. Maybe adding a new station somewhere in Unknowm system like haxmeister suggesting is better.

So you have a new player who wants to build capship

Undeniable, isn't cap ships building supposed to be effectively end game content? If so, then why is this hypothetical new player building a capship?

Maybe he's just new to capship building. His point also works for casual players.

Undeniable, isn't cap ships building supposed to be effectively end game content? If so, then why is this hypothetical new player building a capship?

I agree on that, it is end game goal & it is time taking. But it has been noticed several times that most of the new players in game who have no idea about capships building , guild politics -start asking in 100 how to build capships & jump straight into getting one, just because they saw a big ship flying next to them. This suggestion could effect those players without capships big time. Because they will have to deal with player pirates ,Unrats Ai pirates, griefers , then have to pay for station key to get access & later watch their parts in conquerable station getting wasted due to station changing hands.

Sorry i'm just trying to think about this suggestion from everyone perspective not just combat pilots.

This suggestion could be rewarding for combat players who wants to shoot stuff in game but it's not rewarding for other neutral/peaceful players.

Okay.. a few basics:
- This game is fundamentally based around an ever-moving balance of risk and reward.
- A conquerable station, located in grayspace, is probably not an ideal locale for "peaceful" players.
- Capship construction is an endgame activity. Newbies attempting it too early may find that out painfully.

But, this last point is neither here nor there: The conquerable stations were actually created just to test conquest mechanics. And that's what I need.. well-tested conquest mechanics. But if there's no meaningful motivation to conquer a station, other than bragging rights, it's difficult to get people engaged to do so.

Capship construction is not going to be permanently, intrinsically linked to the three stations. Anyone assuming that should let it go. It is for now, because it causes motivation, specifically.

At the same time, the game is moving in a direction of manufacturable, conquerable and destructible content (including stations), which means that the concept of inventory "loss", in some form, is something we're going to have to confront and deal with in some way.

I'm open to a discussion about how that should work. That's what we're (theoretically) doing.

Now, I'm cognizant of csgno1's earlier feedback articulating similar concerns about difficulty and loss. And that's what we're here to talk about: What factors in the design would be sufficiently mitigating. As I've said earlier.. there are lots of possibilities raised, the existing "time-lock" construct, the possibility of insurance, percentage-loss, some kind of unexplained "points system", and so on.

But it's not that helpful to simply say "don't do that because newbies, and also some people don't like to shoot".

(IonicPaulTheSecond kind of stole my thunder here, but i'm still going to post this)

Instead of having some sort of time lock, why not have some sort of system where the new owners have free rein of the station, but to get the other cargo, they have to break some sort of lock. The cargo holds contents and owners are encrypted, but the access to them is crackable. But this takes time. So the owners will have to crack each hold one at a time, not knowing which hold belongs to what player. One player cracking these locks would take much longer than a whole team, but even a whole team might take a eight hours.

Additionally pilots with cargo holds at a conq station could harden access ports (to forced entry) , but this would require manufacturable items.

This mechanic would mean that there is only a chance that any one pilot would lose what is in their hold immediately. Though that chance increases as time goes by. If someones hold is being cracked, there could also be remote alarms, so that pilot would know they have to work quick to protect their cargo.

But it has been noticed several times that most of the new players in game who have no idea about capships building , guild politics -start asking in 100 how to build capships & jump straight into getting one, just because they saw a big ship flying next to them. This suggestion could effect those players without capships big time. Because they will have to deal with player pirates ,Unrats Ai pirates, griefers , then have to pay for station key to get access & later watch their parts in conquerable station getting wasted due to station changing hands.

Not to be callous to those players, but perhaps all of that is a fair lesson? Or in the words of Star Trek's Q:

"If you can't take a little bloody nose, maybe you ought to go back home and crawl under your bed. It's not safe out here. It's wondrous, with treasures to satiate desires both subtle and gross. But it's not for the timid."

Put another way: maybe it should be a lesson you learn early and often that gray is not something you thoughtlessly go into because "it's the next thing". As I suggested earlier, I'm not advocating for those players to lose all their stored gear outright. But there should be a risk, maybe even a guarantee, that some of it will go away if you're not attentive or simply take too long.

I like We all float and IonicPaulTheSecond's idea of individual yet anonymous crackable "safes" which, as with group mining, is better done in a group. And the owners of these safes can reinforce their storage with a rent system or use of certain manufactured/hard to get items, or a mix of both. Also, additional storage rented at a station should be a different safe, with its own reinforcements independent if other safes owned by the player.

Maybe also a "group safe" like a joint savings account. Multiple people can have access to the same vault of goods, through keys. This will allow guild sharing of goods. So if a guild is building a capship together, they may access certain items from the common vault(s) and use them. I would actually like this to be implemented at all stations...but that's a topic for a seperate thread.

interesting concepts, though it might be hard to balance.
Why not limiting the possibility to steal only to one single item from players inventories and only one inventory randomly picked for a start and see where it goes from there.
Ofc i believe that station conquest to become much much harder by then.

To all Fellow traders, do not worry Jolly Roger will provide escort and protection services during the transition period for a reasonable price to any guild (yes that includes you TGFT).
Think also pirates could help corporate trade guilds war, by recovering specific item list from competitors!
I am pretty sure that between intelligent businessmen we can workout solutions mutually beneficial to all!

Yer Beloved Capt'N Blood.

https://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/3/37885?page=2#425292

+1

Replicating the 3 conq. station missions to locations in the three nations(1 in each nation)/spreading the 3 out in UIT, with increased material requirements and daily/weekly build caps. You would still need to head to M7 for the final build.

The original idea is interesting but IMO doesn't work with the current iteration of conquerable stations. I could provide access to traders on my main, then use alt accounts to loot them. There's no incentive to play fair(as has been pointed above).

If there were alternatives to current stations, I would have to provide some incentive to make people use my station for manufacturing, or lisk losing a lot of greyspace traffic. Tieing in facilities such as charging usage rent to traders also gives me incentive to protect my station from other aggressors(basically charging for protecting the station users goods).

On top of this, I feel the overall suggestion even with the above modifications makes lives of manufacturers difficult. To remedy this, the current capship manu difficulty could be reduced a tad bit.

Striking a balance between the 2 different manufacturing avenues would be necessary. Nation space manu should be tough, but not to the point that people get forced to disregard them altogether.

-1
This would make Manufacturing, an already time consuming task, just that much more tedious and difficult.
Imo this would worsen the problem of people controlling the station to sell manu goods for rl money and hurt the game.
Just my opinion

"But it's not that helpful to simply say "don't do that because newbies, and also some people don't like to shoot".

I believe new players/manufacturers doesn't even stand a chance against a group of veterans let's say against 5-9 players all sitting with capships to defend conquerable stations & let's say that said new players tries to negotiate a deal with station owners for key & also why would anyone negotiate or choose to pay for station access key, when their cargo isn't even safe in station. Hauling with behemoth Xc & having to deal with player pirates , npc pirates , griefers etc. Already make things worse for them.

I'm not saying this is a bad idea, it just doesn't fit with current conquerable station. This idea fits more into guild based stations. Where a group of players will build their own station anywhere in unknown system. They should be able to build all parts there & will have to deal with hive or players attacking their station to either conquer it & having access to inventory of said station or they can destroy that station to stop their manufacturing. Not to mention they have to deal with aggro bots everytime they enter or leave unknown system. ( which makes things more risky & more rewarding ).

Insurance mission of said station should be more like 50million lowest since it will be used by a group of players.

Current conquerable station conquering is already rewarding , some players started selling access keys to make profits , having them take player inventories like that make no sense. Why would anyone want to pay for it if their cargo sitting in station inventory isn't even safe.

Tbh i really believe this idea fits with guild based stations over current conquerable/prototype ones.

Undeniable, Most of what you're arguing about has *already* been answered by Incarnate. Let's recap:

================================================================
Incarnate:
It is important to understand the context of why the conquerable stations exist at all: They are a prototype for conquerable stations everywhere. Manufacturable, minor factions, whatever.

So, we have these conquerable stations specifically to test mechanics. The capship content was glued to them, because without that there would be no reason whatsoever to have any conflict.

I definitively want to have constructed, manufactured stations, with conquerable territory, resource acquisition based on territorial ownership, and all kinds of other factors. I'm building a whole expanded universe on that basis, so having conquest mechanics that work pretty well (and aren't "gamed" that easily) seems pretty important.

That's what we're actually trying to do here. The "three stations" don't matter. They're going away eventually. It's a testbed for conquest mechanics, and always has been.

The conquerable stations were actually created just to test conquest mechanics. And that's what I need.. well-tested conquest mechanics. But if there's no meaningful motivation to conquer a station, other than bragging rights, it's difficult to get people engaged to do so.

Capship construction is not going to be permanently, intrinsically linked to the three stations. Anyone assuming that should let it go. It is for now, because it causes motivation, specifically.

At the same time, the game is moving in a direction of manufacturable, conquerable and destructible content (including stations), which means that the concept of inventory "loss", in some form, is something we're going to have to confront and deal with in some way.
==============================================================

So, you keep talking about how it doesn't fit with the current design, but the current design is just a testbed. try to envision BEYOND the current designs of the game.

So, you keep talking about how it doesn't fit with the current design, but the current design is just a testbed. try to envision BEYOND the current designs of the game.

I think I included that in my reply? Including a system that fits with the suggestion, and why it(the suggestion) doesn't work with the current stations. I read that it's a testbed, but the standalone suggestion cannot be debated upon without providing an alternative to the current system of stations.

If the suggestion is far from being implemented, if and when it gets tested, will it be done on this "testbed", or a revamped type of conquerable station? If the former, then discussions would obviously revolve around the current system, if the latter it'd be helpful to have some perspective on what those changed stations would be. Would they all be in greyspace/manufacturable/lootable ?

"I believe new players/manufacturers doesn't even stand a chance against a group of veterans let's say against 5-9 players all sitting with capships..."

yeah, doom on the new player in Grey or trying to manufacture. They need to not be new first.