No, I'm not asking for them to work like the hive. I actually think that would be cool, but I imagine that would require more work.

I'm just talking about their numbers in the wormhole sectors. As it stands, unrats in the WH sectors are a binary occurrence - they are either there in a murder mob or they're not there at all (barring them surviving a large fight/capship). So, if you're a regular player, you either can avoid them entirely or get mobbed to death. Sometimes you're running through gray in a trading ship and only find out that they're there at all by spawning with them surrounding the wormhole you just jumped through. While I appreciate that they are a threat, and I want them to remain that way, I think it would be great if they came in groups of two or three, and eventually reached the numbers of the aforementioned murder mob.

The benefits of this would be a more dynamic grayspace PvE with a relatively simple tweak in their spawning behavior. It would allow you to discover the presence of unrats without instantly exploding. You might even be able to fend them off , but eventually they would grow in strength and you'd have to just cede the sector. It would also just feel more realistic and immersive, like how the hive send observers out before sectors fill up. Rather than jumping through gray and randomly having a fleet appear on one of your return trips, you would see a few ships and know that you'll have your work cut out for you very soon.

The downsides to this could be that a dedicated player in a fighter could single-handedly reduce the unrats in WH sectors to nothing with relative ease. Though given that new unrats would pop in every 3-5 minutes, I would imagine that would be a pretty narrow window for them to catch them without losing. To put it another way: It's one thing to give four unrats the slip vs ten, but standing up to them would still be pretty hard.

All in all, I think this would be a cheap tweak that would keep unrats the threat that they should be while making them feel a little more living and breathing.

+1

+1

+.9 would they Infinity spawn or is there a cap. If so I'd say 8-10, not 15-20 now that as it currently is, is instant death.

I would think that there would be a cap of unrats in system and "reinforcements." If you kill enough they don't respawn for a bit, like the current system.

+1. Unrat swarms are just too powerful to do anything against. You're dead before you can process their presence. Taking action is out of the question.

The message I take away from the unrat murder mob is "grey is dangerous; don't go alone". Yes, I've dropped into an unrat sector with a goli full of SSS and had it unceremoniously taken away from me -- those PCBs are no joke. But I've learnt my lesson, and either go through UIT, or ask a fellow player to grab a hound and scout ahead for me. Or, worst case, I swap out one XC for a hound and do my own scouting. Life is full of compromises.

The complaint this suggestion addresses isn't one of difficulty. It's of scaling and immersion. The binary nature of unrat mobs feels very static. Having their numbers ebb and flow is much more interesting and allows for a variety of interactions other than "run" or "throw capship at them".

So, there is a much more complex design for unrats, which we've simply never been able to implement due to other priorities. But it does have "scaling" of various types, but I think the issue here is the "minimum level of intensity"..

I think I have a more brutal outlook on grayspace than some of you. My interpretation is that the area is supposed to be seriously dangerous. Not like.. "occasionally uncomfortable" or "mildly inconvenient".

To look at it another way, why would pirates even gather together, if they don't even have a high probability of taking down a single target?

The downsides to this could be that a dedicated player in a fighter could single-handedly reduce the unrats in WH sectors to nothing with relative ease.

This is also a factor. There's a major disparity in skill-sets of various players, and the intention of the unrats was to create something that would be, at least, "a bit of a challenge" for really competent fighters. People will always optimize on tactics vs AI and so on, but it takes a certain density of firepower to even make something that isn't a "yawn" for a combat-capable player.

But I've learnt my lesson, and either go through UIT, or ask a fellow player to grab a hound and scout ahead for me. Or, worst case, I swap out one XC for a hound and do my own scouting. Life is full of compromises.

This was closer to the intention. The education that grayspace is a viscerally dangerous locale that requires respect. It is not required to pass through grayspace (at least for initial standings), and it does also increase the odds that players may group up to take on a challenge, which is also a desirable goal.

The future of the economy in grayspace is going to be based on a risk-vs-reward model. If the rewards increase substantially, the risk has to be high enough to offset that, otherwise we just have enough set of exploitable trade-routes to generate infinite credits for no purpose.

Understand, this is not me saying "NO" to the OP, this is me explaining the thinking behind the way the system currently works. Can the pirates gank the hell out of you? Yes. Is that intentional? Yes. That is also part of the reality of combat in a twitch-based game like this.. you may die quickly and dramatically. And if that isn't a strong potential in grayspace, the great "pirate paradise", then.. where exactly?

The complaint this suggestion addresses isn't one of difficulty.

I guess it depends on who is doing the reading. I think some people on here are definitely seeing this as a difficulty-related issue.

There's also a bit of an issue in making the pirates "present" but effectively "not any threat to capships". That basically creates a new haves-vs-have-nots problem where, for a period of time, capship owners will be able to breeze through the pirate sectors without concern, while smaller traders will not.

There may be less motivation for higher-level players to "clear" the pirates in that case. There might even be motivation not to, as it makes the sectors behind the pirates more "blockaded" to the rest of the population, and might improve trade prices for those who can get through.

Anyway, I'm not against making them more organic in the way they spawn, there are a lot of plans around that. But, there might be other ramifications to periods of time when there are only a couple of pirates bothering people.

All good points - I could see how my suggestion could be construed as wanting grayspace to be easier. For what it's worth, I would be okay with the death mobs being exactly as common as they are now! I would just find it more interesting if, in addition, you could catch an occasional pirate or two who would be daring enough to make an attempt on lone pilots, giving them the opportunity to have an interesting encounter even if gray is completely clear of players. Very much like EV or Elite, too. Sometimes a desperate pirate makes a fool of themselves. Sometimes a group of them make a fool of you.

Definitely happy to hear that there are more plans in the pipeline for them, either way. Maybe some random unrats could just be a stopgap, even without affecting the current mobs' spawning whatsoever.

IonicPaulTheSecond wrote:
As it stands, unrats in the WH sectors are a binary occurrence - they are either there in a murder mob or they're not there at all.

Sometimes people will kill all but the WTD's. The WTD's are not reinforced so the sector stays mostly safe.

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So, if you're a regular player, you either can avoid them entirely or get mobbed to death.
Two standard tactics to get around this are to scout ahead or a head or take an escort mission to act as meat shield for your ship.

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Sometimes you're running through gray in a trading ship and only find out that they're there at all by spawning with them surrounding the wormhole you just jumped through.

If you come in from a different vector, you won't be instantly surrounded by them, giving you a chance to escape (via fighting or running).

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Sid123 wrote:
Unrat swarms are just too powerful to do anything against.

Grey space is supposed to be hard. I was busy to reply before so Inc got his reply in before me, but it was going to be much the same as he wrote. See what i wrote in reply to IonicPaul. Proper planning makes unrat swarms more of an annoyance than a powerful swarm.

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incarnate wrote:

I think I have a more brutal outlook on grayspace than some of you. My interpretation is that the area is supposed to be seriously dangerous. Not like.. "occasionally uncomfortable" or "mildly inconvenient".

This is what i have been hoping for grey space. My fellow traders want a grey space that is just a slightly more inconvenient extension of grey space. That doesn't seem fun as a game play mechanism. Entering grey space should not be hopping into the deep end at your local recreational pool. instead, it should jumping into the ocean during typhoon season. With just your wits to keep you safe. Hopefully the unrats start making their way all systems of grey, instead of just Odia, Sedina, Bractus (and Latos on Saturdays).

If the unrats are not killed in a certain amount of time, they should spread their wings and expand. Each expansion should double their territory until they in every grey space system, and the galaxy is forced to deal with them.

With additional danger should come addition reward.

Having the unrats spread would be cool, it would force players to band and try to take them on rather than ask or wait for the usual players that take care of the unrats like they do now, I have been playing for a almost month of ingame time and grouping with ppl to clear a blockade is fun, like killing a teradon that requires cooperation and not just have one player with capships bulldoze them. Like if you're gonna go to grey, you have to do your part too.

Honestly, unrats aren't even remotely a challenge if your just passing through without fighting. You can just shoot from a back turret and jump from the wh before they even hurt you.

I fe unrats just be ramped up even more, with greyhounds that use pcbs and the what not.