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Feedback on the Latos Economy.
The dynamic economy was expanded a couple of months ago, from a single station, to the entire system of Latos. This was done to provide a better idea of how things might work, using our NPC-driven convoy mechanics to fulfill needs in the system as they arose.
Basically, when a station's levels of a particular item get low, it triggers a mission creation to fulfill that need. If the trade mission isn't taken by a player in a fixed period of time, then an NPC will take the mission and a convoy will launch with the item desired (usually from somewhere that manufactures said item).
The prices of the Latos economy are the same as the rest of the older, simpler economy. So concerns about "trade-route profit" shouldn't really be meaningful between the two economies, as they work on the same base data (min/max prices, etc); just that Latos carries actual inventory of items in question, and bases demand on its actual inventories (of each respective station), instead of a time-based construct.
This could be problematic, as consumption may be insufficient to stimulate the desired level of trading in Latos right now, as it's real consumption (what people are actually buying). We will likely need to artificially / randomly stimulate consumption in real-time based on the number of players online, or people actively trading or some such, to reach better desired price points or some such.
I don't claim the economic configuration of Latos is ideal, it's using a certain set of numbers, and generating some analytics data for us, it's a baseline.
I've gotten very little feedback on the Latos implementation, from the player-base, since we expanded it. I have anecdotally heard from some players that it's.. "broken", or they "don't like it", or various other vague and negative commentary, but rarely with any in-depth explanation of "why".
I've occasionally heard, that players consider the stations to be "out" of things too often (?), something that could be adjusted be changing available quantity, and/or building a heuristic where the station will adaptively change its "peak inventory" ceilings based on player activity. (Or, that might not be the problem at all, and it could be a delivery-side issue).
What would be helpful here is a clear and coherent set of feedback about how the Latos economy is working, and what problems (if any) people have found with it. Please be specific.
I want to use the system more widely, and it'll be better for everyone if we make it as robust as possible before expanding it further. Thanks.
Basically, when a station's levels of a particular item get low, it triggers a mission creation to fulfill that need. If the trade mission isn't taken by a player in a fixed period of time, then an NPC will take the mission and a convoy will launch with the item desired (usually from somewhere that manufactures said item).
The prices of the Latos economy are the same as the rest of the older, simpler economy. So concerns about "trade-route profit" shouldn't really be meaningful between the two economies, as they work on the same base data (min/max prices, etc); just that Latos carries actual inventory of items in question, and bases demand on its actual inventories (of each respective station), instead of a time-based construct.
This could be problematic, as consumption may be insufficient to stimulate the desired level of trading in Latos right now, as it's real consumption (what people are actually buying). We will likely need to artificially / randomly stimulate consumption in real-time based on the number of players online, or people actively trading or some such, to reach better desired price points or some such.
I don't claim the economic configuration of Latos is ideal, it's using a certain set of numbers, and generating some analytics data for us, it's a baseline.
I've gotten very little feedback on the Latos implementation, from the player-base, since we expanded it. I have anecdotally heard from some players that it's.. "broken", or they "don't like it", or various other vague and negative commentary, but rarely with any in-depth explanation of "why".
I've occasionally heard, that players consider the stations to be "out" of things too often (?), something that could be adjusted be changing available quantity, and/or building a heuristic where the station will adaptively change its "peak inventory" ceilings based on player activity. (Or, that might not be the problem at all, and it could be a delivery-side issue).
What would be helpful here is a clear and coherent set of feedback about how the Latos economy is working, and what problems (if any) people have found with it. Please be specific.
I want to use the system more widely, and it'll be better for everyone if we make it as robust as possible before expanding it further. Thanks.
Here is a link to a plugin that does Economy Data Gathering
What is the timer for NPC voys to refill a commodity? What happens if said voy is destroyed, will there be another send later on? I've seen certain commodities not be restocked for days, even tough it was just boring items (not needed for manu).
The manu commodities ((Outer) Hull Panels) were almost always out of stock when i docked in latos. A heuristic of the combination demand and item, to request/deliver it faster would improve that.
Its now harder to find the items you seek, but at the same time also more interesting than mind-numbing hauling of X items. Delivering cargo that is missing also pays well, so maybe more people will do that in the future.
Overall, i like the new dynamic economy. It feels much more like real trade, instead of infinite stock created by the station.
The manu commodities ((Outer) Hull Panels) were almost always out of stock when i docked in latos. A heuristic of the combination demand and item, to request/deliver it faster would improve that.
Its now harder to find the items you seek, but at the same time also more interesting than mind-numbing hauling of X items. Delivering cargo that is missing also pays well, so maybe more people will do that in the future.
Overall, i like the new dynamic economy. It feels much more like real trade, instead of infinite stock created by the station.
Is there some indication in the latos stations which items are stocked by default and which items are in stock only because a player sold them (and otherwise are not auto-filled by NPCs)?
Admittedly I'm not a huge user of the trade system, outside of buying valks, but I can imagine it being incredibly frustrating for game-stocked items to be out of stock where they are expected.
If that becomes the norm (where the inventory of stations normal items is always up in the air), then the remote system/nation/region-wide access to station inventories, or should I say the lack thereof, becomes a much bigger issue. It's pretty ridiculous to have to visit a station physically to see its offerings in that light.
Making inventories remotely accessible would increase trading activity as well, and could conceivably invigorate it to the point where people are racing to grab profits as their opportunity presents.
Admittedly I'm not a huge user of the trade system, outside of buying valks, but I can imagine it being incredibly frustrating for game-stocked items to be out of stock where they are expected.
If that becomes the norm (where the inventory of stations normal items is always up in the air), then the remote system/nation/region-wide access to station inventories, or should I say the lack thereof, becomes a much bigger issue. It's pretty ridiculous to have to visit a station physically to see its offerings in that light.
Making inventories remotely accessible would increase trading activity as well, and could conceivably invigorate it to the point where people are racing to grab profits as their opportunity presents.
Is there some indication in the latos stations which items are stocked by default and which items are in stock only because a player sold them (and otherwise are not auto-filled by NPCs)?
No, there is not. But, basically, all standard commodities should be re-stocked, where as player manufactured content is not. Because it's only player-manufactured.
The manu commodities ((Outer) Hull Panels) were almost always out of stock when i docked in latos. A heuristic of the combination demand and item, to request/deliver it faster would improve that.
That falls under the player-manufactured content. I had no intention of creating an NPC side to that, doing so would undermine the player economy.
I've seen certain commodities not be restocked for days, even tough it was just boring items (not needed for manu).
Do you have any specific examples, off the top of your head? Even just the commodity name, would narrow things down.
but I can imagine it being incredibly frustrating for game-stocked items to be out of stock where they are expected.
This does inherently create demand and value to traders, on the other hand, since they're delivering content where it's actually needed.
Similarly, stations with surplus inventories could run "sales" to reduce their stock, and traders could watch for the best differential prices.
Making inventories remotely accessible would increase trading activity as well, and could conceivably invigorate it to the point where people are racing to grab profits as their opportunity presents.
Yup, that would essentially be a part of the functionality I've spoken about elsewhere, for seeing best prices for remote content (since it being "stocked" would be necessary for that to be useful).
No, there is not. But, basically, all standard commodities should be re-stocked, where as player manufactured content is not. Because it's only player-manufactured.
The manu commodities ((Outer) Hull Panels) were almost always out of stock when i docked in latos. A heuristic of the combination demand and item, to request/deliver it faster would improve that.
That falls under the player-manufactured content. I had no intention of creating an NPC side to that, doing so would undermine the player economy.
I've seen certain commodities not be restocked for days, even tough it was just boring items (not needed for manu).
Do you have any specific examples, off the top of your head? Even just the commodity name, would narrow things down.
but I can imagine it being incredibly frustrating for game-stocked items to be out of stock where they are expected.
This does inherently create demand and value to traders, on the other hand, since they're delivering content where it's actually needed.
Similarly, stations with surplus inventories could run "sales" to reduce their stock, and traders could watch for the best differential prices.
Making inventories remotely accessible would increase trading activity as well, and could conceivably invigorate it to the point where people are racing to grab profits as their opportunity presents.
Yup, that would essentially be a part of the functionality I've spoken about elsewhere, for seeing best prices for remote content (since it being "stocked" would be necessary for that to be useful).
Is there some indication in the latos stations which items are stocked by default and which items are in stock only because a player sold them (and otherwise are not auto-filled by NPCs)?
Isn't this the 'locallyproduced' property in the table you get when you do a GetStationMerchInfo() on the item ID in a station. I have extracted the data into this spreadsheet of Latos N-2 today. You can see all the blue ones down the bottom have quantities that suggest they were moved there by players (or, I presume, NPC convoys).
Couldn't this just be shown as a new column or filter option? Alternatively if a new column is not practical, why not just paste the 'Locally Made Trade Goods' description on all commodities which have 'locallyproduced' option?
Isn't this the 'locallyproduced' property in the table you get when you do a GetStationMerchInfo() on the item ID in a station. I have extracted the data into this spreadsheet of Latos N-2 today. You can see all the blue ones down the bottom have quantities that suggest they were moved there by players (or, I presume, NPC convoys).
Couldn't this just be shown as a new column or filter option? Alternatively if a new column is not practical, why not just paste the 'Locally Made Trade Goods' description on all commodities which have 'locallyproduced' option?
Isn't this the 'locallyproduced' property in the table you get when you do a GetStationMerchInfo() on the item ID in a station.
No, it isn't. That defines whether the item is locally produced. Items with a maintained stock-level that is delivered by convoys, be they player or NPC, are clearly still not locally-produced.
Locally produced basically means "manufactured on-site".
He asked if there's and indication of what items are stocked by default, and what items are only in stock because a player happened to sell them there, and that is not the same as "locally produced" at all. A large quantity of items are still kept "in stock" at the station, and are not locally produced.
No, it isn't. That defines whether the item is locally produced. Items with a maintained stock-level that is delivered by convoys, be they player or NPC, are clearly still not locally-produced.
Locally produced basically means "manufactured on-site".
He asked if there's and indication of what items are stocked by default, and what items are only in stock because a player happened to sell them there, and that is not the same as "locally produced" at all. A large quantity of items are still kept "in stock" at the station, and are not locally produced.
Okay thanks that's helpful to guide suggestions, here they are:
Tweak to locallyproduced property
Can the locallyproduced property be replaced with a more complex property that reflects this status?For example a table with one of three options:
1. item is locally produced (locallyproduced)
2. item was actively solicited by the station and delivered by convoy (delivered)
3. item was unsolicited but purchased by the station (purchased)
The reason for this change is its helpful to make decisions on optimal trade routes, whether programatically (or if you decide to put an interface in to distinguish items, that way).
Purchase price mechaics
The above begs the further question as to how the station decides the purchase price of what I've defined as the 'delivered' items in above. You may have previously said it before, but can you confirm:
1(a) that it is based on a quantity range that the station 'desires'?
1(b) if yes, is there a mechanic or API function for us to know this 'desired' amount, or is it intended gameplay that we infer it from observation/gameplay?
2(a) that the station consumes a range of 'delivered' goods at a fixed rate in order to produce each of its 'locallyproduced' goods?
2(b) if yes, can we know the rate of consumption or is this intended gameplay that we infer it from observation/gameplay?
2(c) also if yes, does the current implementation of the Latos economy halt the production of certain 'locallyproduced' goods if the station has insufficient quantities of 'delivered' goods in stock?
If there's a post with these details let us know. I am not sure there is a general awareness of these mechanics though hence the queries.
Tweak to locallyproduced property
Can the locallyproduced property be replaced with a more complex property that reflects this status?For example a table with one of three options:
1. item is locally produced (locallyproduced)
2. item was actively solicited by the station and delivered by convoy (delivered)
3. item was unsolicited but purchased by the station (purchased)
The reason for this change is its helpful to make decisions on optimal trade routes, whether programatically (or if you decide to put an interface in to distinguish items, that way).
Purchase price mechaics
The above begs the further question as to how the station decides the purchase price of what I've defined as the 'delivered' items in above. You may have previously said it before, but can you confirm:
1(a) that it is based on a quantity range that the station 'desires'?
1(b) if yes, is there a mechanic or API function for us to know this 'desired' amount, or is it intended gameplay that we infer it from observation/gameplay?
2(a) that the station consumes a range of 'delivered' goods at a fixed rate in order to produce each of its 'locallyproduced' goods?
2(b) if yes, can we know the rate of consumption or is this intended gameplay that we infer it from observation/gameplay?
2(c) also if yes, does the current implementation of the Latos economy halt the production of certain 'locallyproduced' goods if the station has insufficient quantities of 'delivered' goods in stock?
If there's a post with these details let us know. I am not sure there is a general awareness of these mechanics though hence the queries.
Just a reminder, the ask for this thread from the OP, is:
What would be helpful here is a clear and coherent set of feedback about how the Latos economy is working, and what problems (if any) people have found with it. Please be specific.
Ie:
I'm looking for specific cases of problems that people have run into. Explicit and obvious bugs, and things that people have noticably disliked. Such as the earlier report of "the station ran out of stuff" (what stuff?).
I don't feel like a super deep-dive on purchasing mechanics (that may well change in another week), is very relevant to the discussion. This thread is seeking actual problems, from real-world experience.
What would be helpful here is a clear and coherent set of feedback about how the Latos economy is working, and what problems (if any) people have found with it. Please be specific.
Ie:
I'm looking for specific cases of problems that people have run into. Explicit and obvious bugs, and things that people have noticably disliked. Such as the earlier report of "the station ran out of stuff" (what stuff?).
I don't feel like a super deep-dive on purchasing mechanics (that may well change in another week), is very relevant to the discussion. This thread is seeking actual problems, from real-world experience.
I don't have a lot of feedback, but do have some stuff that I think shouldn't be overlooked.
The dynamic economy should not run out of goods that are essential. Outer hull panels were infinite in Latos, and almost only required in I8, in large quantities. With the dynamic economy, the closest station is Azek.
This increases the risk of hauling it(across H2), as compared to earlier(Latos N15 to I8). There's already a lot of expensive parts(FCP, RB) that need to be hauled across grey space WHs. Adding OHP to that list is demotivating(to new builders), considering hauling it from N15 to I8 was already a major PITA due to its quantity.
Hull Plates/Panels(Not OHP) are only available in Verasi. These too are needed in large quantities, in I8. You could rarely find it in N2 earlier but it's scarce these days. In the new economy, commodities like these should be in infinite supply, or at least reasonably high with a high rate of influx. I don't remember seeing commodities cross the 5k quantity mark, which is very less for something like Hull Panels.
Generally, the manufacturing flow should stay more or less the same, not because it would cause inconvenience to people following their spreadsheets but because people won't wait days waiting for a commodity to pop up in scarce quantities, or scourge the entire 'verse for it, or let trolls buy up entire inventories because they have the credits to do so.
My point kinda here is that the economy doesn't compensate well for the demand for these kinds of commodities(require in manufacturing). The risk factor of hauling something across H2 is not bad, but it should not be permanent. There should be days where OHP is available in large quantities(~10K compared to the current 0) readily in Latos, whereas a few days where people either have to haul or wait for the stock to replenish.
Also, Sedina should not easily run out of neuts, or well any major combat ship/weapon. Nobody would bother with PvP if you couldn't buy your essential gear nearby. Making these a high paying area for weapons will only cause campers to kill anyone trying to sell, causing no actual flow of stock.
What does happen with ships anyway? Are they magically produced or are their actual voys loading up Rev Cs and hauling them? I'd much rather prefer the former, and at a higher rate. Not that I have seen stations run out of ships, but people can burn through a lot of ships on active nights, and stations should keep up with Sunday night pew pews.
Really sorry if my answer is unstructured, and points all over the place, I'm a bit tired rn. Hope I get the gist of it across.
The dynamic economy should not run out of goods that are essential. Outer hull panels were infinite in Latos, and almost only required in I8, in large quantities. With the dynamic economy, the closest station is Azek.
This increases the risk of hauling it(across H2), as compared to earlier(Latos N15 to I8). There's already a lot of expensive parts(FCP, RB) that need to be hauled across grey space WHs. Adding OHP to that list is demotivating(to new builders), considering hauling it from N15 to I8 was already a major PITA due to its quantity.
Hull Plates/Panels(Not OHP) are only available in Verasi. These too are needed in large quantities, in I8. You could rarely find it in N2 earlier but it's scarce these days. In the new economy, commodities like these should be in infinite supply, or at least reasonably high with a high rate of influx. I don't remember seeing commodities cross the 5k quantity mark, which is very less for something like Hull Panels.
Generally, the manufacturing flow should stay more or less the same, not because it would cause inconvenience to people following their spreadsheets but because people won't wait days waiting for a commodity to pop up in scarce quantities, or scourge the entire 'verse for it, or let trolls buy up entire inventories because they have the credits to do so.
My point kinda here is that the economy doesn't compensate well for the demand for these kinds of commodities(require in manufacturing). The risk factor of hauling something across H2 is not bad, but it should not be permanent. There should be days where OHP is available in large quantities(~10K compared to the current 0) readily in Latos, whereas a few days where people either have to haul or wait for the stock to replenish.
Also, Sedina should not easily run out of neuts, or well any major combat ship/weapon. Nobody would bother with PvP if you couldn't buy your essential gear nearby. Making these a high paying area for weapons will only cause campers to kill anyone trying to sell, causing no actual flow of stock.
What does happen with ships anyway? Are they magically produced or are their actual voys loading up Rev Cs and hauling them? I'd much rather prefer the former, and at a higher rate. Not that I have seen stations run out of ships, but people can burn through a lot of ships on active nights, and stations should keep up with Sunday night pew pews.
Really sorry if my answer is unstructured, and points all over the place, I'm a bit tired rn. Hope I get the gist of it across.
The original ask was: What would be helpful here is a clear and coherent set of feedback about how the Latos economy is working, and what problems (if any) people have found with it. Please be specific.
Then I just reinforced, above: I'm looking for specific cases of problems that people have run into.
I would like to thank Xeha, for being the only person who actually read what I requested, and responded with that content.
I'm trying to fix bugs here, I don't need to be told in lengthy detail about how stations "shouldn't run out of things". I already know that. I'm just asking for like.. "what things?!@#".
If you look at the Bugs forum you will find exactly zero threads reporting how stations in Latos run out of items for long periods of time. It's definitely helpful if people tell us when things aren't working correctly.
Anyway, as far as I can tell, the Latos N-2 station has never placed a single order for Outer Hull Plate, despite having a demand of "1" (maximum). Lots of other items are ordered and fulfilled all the time, I have no idea what the deal is there. We'll have to look into it.
Thanks Xeha.
Then I just reinforced, above: I'm looking for specific cases of problems that people have run into.
I would like to thank Xeha, for being the only person who actually read what I requested, and responded with that content.
I'm trying to fix bugs here, I don't need to be told in lengthy detail about how stations "shouldn't run out of things". I already know that. I'm just asking for like.. "what things?!@#".
If you look at the Bugs forum you will find exactly zero threads reporting how stations in Latos run out of items for long periods of time. It's definitely helpful if people tell us when things aren't working correctly.
Anyway, as far as I can tell, the Latos N-2 station has never placed a single order for Outer Hull Plate, despite having a demand of "1" (maximum). Lots of other items are ordered and fulfilled all the time, I have no idea what the deal is there. We'll have to look into it.
Thanks Xeha.
My 2c on the subject
there is not enough demand for a dynamic economy
what we have is fine
if it aint broke dont fix it
If mining paid better we would not need to rely on trade
I fully expect to get slated for my opinion but there it is
there is not enough demand for a dynamic economy
what we have is fine
if it aint broke dont fix it
If mining paid better we would not need to rely on trade
I fully expect to get slated for my opinion but there it is
there is not enough demand for a dynamic economy
what we have is fine
if it aint broke dont fix it
Jesus, man. That's like telling me we don't need capital ships, after I've spent a large chunk of my life into it.
We've put huge amounts of effort into this, in part, because a substantial cross-section of players asked for a more-dynamic economy, over and over again (and told us they "wouldn't come back" until it was added, and all sorts of other stuff).
So, just because "you" don't demand it, please don't assume that you represent everyone else.
This thread was not a poll to find out if people "still want this", I was just asking for bug reports, for god's sake. But, hey, almost no one else read what I actually asked for, so why would you?
what we have is fine
if it aint broke dont fix it
Jesus, man. That's like telling me we don't need capital ships, after I've spent a large chunk of my life into it.
We've put huge amounts of effort into this, in part, because a substantial cross-section of players asked for a more-dynamic economy, over and over again (and told us they "wouldn't come back" until it was added, and all sorts of other stuff).
So, just because "you" don't demand it, please don't assume that you represent everyone else.
This thread was not a poll to find out if people "still want this", I was just asking for bug reports, for god's sake. But, hey, almost no one else read what I actually asked for, so why would you?