Vo has opened its universe to both player plateform mobile and pc which is a good thing in order to attract more players. Hower despite this, the game still kinda feels empty when flying around (not only the participation in discussion channels)

The current policy is to have an open pvp oriented game: no where is perfectly safe. The progression in the game is as based mostly on piloting skills for combat and somehow with limitation in licenses to access specific ships and weapons.

Observation:
PC players are nowadays rarer than mobile players.
With iso skills a mobile player will be mostly at disavantage with a pc player in combat unless he uses additional controllers.
F2P players, no matter the explanation of GS, always complain about the game is pay to win because they are confusing the lack of skills and the performance of stuff that can be bought with higher license. Some of them also complain they cannot experience with the full access to capships.
There will always be less players interested in pvp than in pve.
And people interested in non consensual pvp are even rarer.
All these observations contribute to make vo a niche game.

Discussion:
why not to have the game openly pve from the start and let people to join pvp when they wish to do so:
-> pvp/pve distinction could be independant from gaming platform
-> pve protection prevent from getting damaged from other players.
-> protection of pve only players from pvpers could use a mechanism like the friendly fire protection
-> switching from pve to pvp could be done only once if someone wants to switch back he has to submit a support ticket to avoid abuse.
-> some systems could be forbidden to pve like grayspace, then some specific wormhole open only to pvers could be used to go from uit/serco/itani space.
->accessing high level stuff may require to switch to pvp: capships, conquerable station access, deneb wars
-> HUD display could identify players as pve or pvp
-> chat channel could identify players as pve or pvp
->a pve player could overrule the friendly fire protection when using the dueling command then he becomes vulnerable to his opponent only.
-> some combat stuff could be limited to pvp option
-> "pve only sub" costing less than "full pvp sub"
-> to encourage pvp make some reward trading/mining in grayspace, specific mission etc, badges worth of the dangers.

Most of people knows that i am engaged in non consensual pvp as Capt'N Blood and a lot of other nefarious characters, so not really on the carbear side.
The goal here is cleary to attract fresh meat and retain it by allowing them to test safely the game and let them decide to join the pvp community when they feel ready.

Lots of interesting thoughts on how to attract more players. Sadly, perhaps you missed this quote from incarnate:

"We aren't yet ready to "turn on the floodgates" of new players"

The takeaway being that dealing with the emptiness of the game is not a pressing issue, and that when it becomes an issue, it will be easily remedied by "paid user acquisition".

I think I speak for all in hoping that is true.

But trying to brain crunch ideas on how to remedy it via suggestions is a long practiced futility.

That being said, making VO PVP optional will just make PVP extinct.

Not turning on the floodgates has nothing at all to do with this or most other suggestions.

I disagree with your absolutes ("always") and some of the assumptions you have made, but I have seen people who would prefer to avoid pvp. I like how much thought you have put into this.

My concerns are:

1) PVP protection seems a bit too magical and could interfere with immersion in the long run
2) Some users tend to rush through the tutorials, missions, and good advice so that they can attempt to prove their mettle - only to fail miserably. Those tend to be the loudest complainers.

I wouldn't mind if there was a larger protected zone in each nation where traders, racers, miners and explorers could go who dislike pvp, but I would put most of the cool stuff out in the danger zones.

Reading your post reminds me a lot of EDs "Solo Mode".

PvE could be an entirely separate instance, same universe but PvE and PvP players separated.

-> You cannot go to greyspace/Deneb in a PvE instance. Edras and Ukari could be kept open for the connectivity with UIT and serco.
-> You cannot access manufacturing missions, or fly a capital ship in a PvE instance

This would not really break the immersion a lot, apart from being restricted to going to grey/deneb which could easily be handled in-game with an alert similar to the one you get atm when heading to grey.

I feel the PvP instance would end up being empty, so I'm not 100% sure about this version.

Too few PC players? Adding f2p for this platform would likely fix that. People who are serious about VO sub later on anyway. This would attract more players to give VO a longer try or continue playing it.

"Split" universes would only increase point 2 of whistlers post above. There are people who arent willing to learn the necessary skills and demand a overpowered ship, with which they can kill everything. This would only amplify this issue.

If such a switch exists (from pve to pvp), it needs to be a one time choice. No going back, also not with a support ticket.

To avoid abuse of the pve, a license restriction should be in place.

Lite sub is almost close to a f2p like model for PC, 1$/month hardly matters IMO.

I don't mind a permanent switch, but then greyspace restrictions would be meaningless and you would have to keep the entire 'verse open for PvE only players.

I'm not sure how splitting instances would amplify whistlers 2nd point, could you elaborate a bit?

@Aryko:
Lets assume someone plays in pve only for some time, yet didnt learn the basics nor can control his ship well. Since there arent big "enemies", he thinks hes a great player and switches to pvp. But since he rushed trough everything, he then gets wrecked hard. The end result would be one of the "loudest complainers" as he said.

Move some of the training missions to the training sector. Like the intro to mining.

Add second training sector with that has a station with NFZ. Have a mission that teaches about the NFZ. This training sector will have a race tube. The first courier mission is here between the two training sectors. Basic commodity trading can happen between the two training sectors. With a mission that teaches that.

Have a mission in the second training sector called "Observe the chase." The mission text will be something along the lines of "A criminal has entered our space. Lets watch the local law enforcement deal with the threat." The new player gets to undock and watch strike force hunt down a NPC pilot that is flying around the training station NFZ. The player gets to watch a light show. Is instructed not to engage. etc. After the criminal npc is boomed, the player is instructed to shoot something in the nfz to see what happens if they break the rules. They are then rehomed to the the initial training sector and are informed if this had been a real station, they would been rehomed some place less friendly.

Have a bunch of training missions like this.

There is the PVE experience. Two sectors in dau, two in Sol II and two in Itan.

If a new player wants to skip these basic lessons, have them type in a box "I understand", only then can they leave the training sectors. And enter the actual galaxy.

(So, first of all, largely unrelated to this thread..)

The takeaway being that dealing with the emptiness of the game is not a pressing issue, and that when it becomes an issue, it will be easily remedied by "paid user acquisition".

No, that isn't the @#$!ing takeaway! What the hell is wrong with you, Greenwall?

The specific context was a completely different issue, around veteran suspicions of new players being alts, and my simply saying that when there's a really big influx of users, that will change the balance of players and likely diminish that issue. As I explained (in response to your question), the "floodgate" was simply our long-planned, and long-stated goal of a major marketing campaign.

That does nothing to diminish other game changes or mechanics that may improve the game, or make it more appealing, or help with retention, or ambient growth, or whatever else (which is the goal of this thread).

We've been actively working on a variety of other changes that may improve veteran-return rates, new user acquisition rates, long term retention rates, and so on. I mentioned all of that in the same thread, in reference to analytics we've built to help us fix all this stuff.

If you're going to choose to take everything you read from me in the most embittered, negative way possible, then maybe you should just avoid the forums entirely. Or, at the very least, stop pouring your personal negativity onto the ideas of others.

Back to the topic at hand..

I'm continuing to read this with interest. The goal of the OP is a pretty major divergence from the Vendetta Online that we know. I will say that it would appeal to some people, and likely a greater mass-market, more than the possibility of being "ganked". There's a reason why the vast majority of MMORPGs went with separate PvP vs PvE "realms".

Understand: I'm not advocating for or against this Suggestion, I'm simply stating market realities. I'm going to avoid giving my opinion on the "larger" subject, because that's likely to shut down the conversation, and it's the conversation itself that's interesting. So, don't read too much "into" my statement.

For me, the appeal of VO over other space genre games is the twitch-based combat. It harkens back to early games that many of us cut our teeth on, and differentiates VO from other games in the genre that feature more stat-based combat. I love that a skilled noob can gain notoriety, or at least honorable mention.

My concern is that there might not be enough twitch pvp-ers interested in a space genre game to populate separate areas.

I'd rather see a larger area where more of the game can be experienced in considerable safety, but with the lure of better experiences and riches out in grey space.

I think it might be interesting to scale up the protection to make it even harder for high-level or very well equipped hostiles to enter, but lesser hostiles might still be able to create some danger on the fringes.

safety in VO is often described as a gradient that has no pure white or black zones in it. Personally I find this engaging, but the ease at which some pilots can find themselves in those darker zones, and the falloff rate of those protections - after thinking on this thread, perhaps should be adjusted. Right now, if I understand correctly, new pilots begin with the relative safety of their nation's capitol, but often try taking various missions that lead them out of that capitol system in an effort to drive up their licenses as quickly as possible. others wish to engage with the community as soon as possible, despite the warnings.

Way I see it, the single-system of heightened security might be a little too constrained, and the dropoff in expected protection too sharp, and might be directed a different way.

However, I'm not sure what the best balance between early-play protection and immersion would be. denying pilots access to greyspace is off the table, though seperating pilots into a pvp and pve instance sounds depressing. a pve switch based on your game progression could work, but to what degree do you implement that in a way to prevent abuse and limit the immersion breakage?

I'm not greatly worried about those who ignore all advice and then complain about unfairness, though if they do it long enough it might shed VO in a negative light to even newer pilots. its those who do try to learn and move just a little too quickly, putting them on the hot seat with a blaster pointed their way.

I think greater PVE isolation / protection could work if there was a way to participate in PVP in a manner that doesn't cost players anything until they relinquish their isolation (sort of an extended "newb mode"). I think the most frustrating thing about being blown away by experienced players is loss of progress. Those players then quit before they can reach a point where they feel safe enough to expend some money/time on ship losses.

An arena could also be a good way for bored PVP-centric players to get their fix when normal thoroughfares are empty.

So like maybe PVE mode would make them invisible from those in normal mode, but only in their nationspace. Certain limitations would have to be implemented to keep people from abusing the protection (station cargo limits, system-announcement when they enter grayspace, etc)...

I'm not really concerned about some people losing access to their delight of harassing newbs in nationspace if it resulted in more newbs sticking around for the long haul.

somewhat off-topic, but greenwall mentions using an arena to help satisfy pvp itches - using some kind of arena that pilots can access would (in my view) help events like TeamDX have better participation, and therefore be more appealing to host :P

oh, I didnt originally think about it, but that danger gradient is supposed to also apply as a map of where greater risk runs greater reward, aye? I dunno if the risk/reward stuff is obvious. yeah, we say grey is more dangerous, but to someone new to VO... doesn't it just look like more normal space? the ambiance is the same, after all.

at what point is the cost of immersion acceptable for the end goal of retention?

I think the essence of the OP is solid, but the suggested implementation would be totally against what I've always seen VO to be. But I do think the same result could be had in other ways.

Reading this thread gave me an idea. What if starting out, new pilots only saw their nation space and everything else was hidden. Then, at something like combat 3, the new mission appeared that was almost required to progress, kinda like the first starting missions. After taking this mission, the rest of the universe opens up. If the curious newb wonders around and finds new systems outside of their starting nation, good on them. That system then opens up and they can continue to explore.

This is way to save the newb pilots from themselves, so to speak. This is about as much as I have the idea fleshed out now, but feel free to ask questions for clarification or add to the idea.

People can still be killed in their own nation space by other players.

Reading this thread gave me an idea. What if starting out, new pilots only saw their nation space and everything else was hidden. Then, at something like combat 3, the new mission appeared that was almost required to progress, kinda like the first starting missions.

So, there is a long-standing idea to basically require level 1 to leave your Capitol, and level 3 to leave Nation space. There's no plan of "hiding" the other space, because you actually want them to be motivated to explore other regions, or advance themselves until they can.

This could be combined with increasing the safeguards in Nation space, to overall make it a bit more protected environment for new people.

But, these are long-standing ideas, intended as part of a greater redux of the "early experience", which I've referenced elsewhere. However, they're a very far cry from making the game PvP / PvE exclusive, or generally requiring all PvP to be consensual, which is the subject of the OP.

Main goals of OP is ti increase the population on vo, there is a visible player traffic in nation space.
Having both pve and pvp players is a way to increase this traffic

The op provides "live npcs" that can interact, we can hope, intelligently with other players (other way than sending embassador neutron) and fill the emptyness of the space. In order to retain them we need to protect them.
Discussion could be there do we allow permanent protection or limited regarding progression.
Choice between staying protected but access to cool stuff is limited, or go un protected and get rewarded for your boldiness.
You can even imagine some missions which would require cooperation of both player types.

About Pve protection:
Immersion breaking argument: you already have that "magical" protection in capital system if players are from same nation with good standings, which is far more difficult for newbs to understand.
Friendly fire protection exited before into the whole nation space, we're mainly reverting back to this situation and extending it to non nation specific, but with a Level of safety that is being made configurable by the player:
pvp = zero FF protection
pve = full nation FF protection

It can be aknowledge that trigger happy vets would be frustrated from catching fordbidden low hanging fruits.
But those players are not the vast majority of the pvp community which is more engaged in consensual combat.

About huge gap whenc switching to from pve to pvp:
The OP never said that consensual pvp would remain out of reach of the pve players. They could use the /duel command to release the proctection from their opponent (and from their opponent only). We can imagine here any suitable mechanics which is not turning first pvp experience into the gank feast.

About Limiting pve experience
I have no problem with a player that would spend a lifetime mining in uit completly protected for his personal relaxation.
However, some contents like capships, manufactuting weapons/ships; conquering station, grayspace, deneb war are pvp only contents, this should be made clear to the player.
Access of grayspace wormhole is to be granted by accepting that the player will be losing is pve status for good either with a big annoying blinking popup or asking for the player to have a certain duel rating/number of pk against first pvp badge players (25 kills). We can discuss to have an override lua command for forfaiting pve status. Though it might replace the late display of hypos..., still it could be made safe by checking that the player has least one character with a pvp badge.
Direct access wormholes from uit to serco and uit to itani space, could use specific wormholes allowed only if you're a pve player.

This would be preferrable to fog of war solutions who would keep the feeling the game is underpopulated.

Concerning "God will sort them out / vo is for the best only / good riddance they would have never made it anyway" argument:

This argument belongs to that thin population of player that could take a serious beating and get over it or are in the guild of fast learners or had the chance to start on PC with decent controllers.
New players starting on mobile with the default controls cannot be too pleased to be repeatly killed, especially for uit characters, when they are just out of the training sector, still trying to figure out the ropes fresh from trainings with the first missions meanwhile taking time to get acquainted with the game community to know about and to download the necessary plugins mandatory for game survival.

We can be pretty sure there's a not so little population of player who needs a bit more time to discover the game and all the "untold" tips" to increase survival.
Those will join the pvp commutinity when they have tested it in a controlled environnement instead of being thrown the gank feast from start. (/duel evolution or controlled pvp arenas ot whatever mechanism to fit the purpose)

Make free to play on PC will surely add more pc players likely to fill up pvpers community, but let's face it there are-will be less and less home computer / laptop users.
I personnaly would find fun to encounter a player starting a mining/trader career on his smart home appliance even if i cannot kill him. (even more a pvp berserker on an raging smart toaster).

Perhaps as a first step, that hopefully won't consume an inordinate amount of Dev time race tracks could be added to the training sectors. I've seen a lot of noobs that can hardly fly from A to B adequately. I would suggest, simply copy-pasting whichever is the simplest to fly through. Best would be to chop off about half of it.

"So like maybe PVE mode would make them invisible from those in normal mode, but only in their nationspace."

That would be exploitable as hell. Plus it would screw things up for vets who want to help out newbies, and for newbs who are ready to exit PVE mode before their friends are.


"yeah, we say grey is more dangerous, but to someone new to VO... doesn't it just look like more normal space? the ambiance is the same, after all."

This is what wreckages are for. Litter them generously throughout greyspace to give it that "people die here" vibe.

On the other side of things, nationspace doesn't currently have an oppressive enough atmosphere to it. Making sector monitoring more visible would help with that, and eventually there should also be nosy government agents who canvas nationspace scanning people's holds in search of contraband. The absence of this kind of stuff in greyspace would then provide a stark contrast.

Pizza has a point. The ambiance of grey is roughly the same as the rest of the game. Wreckage would be cool, along with bots flying around 'salvaging' parts of it, they do not really need to accomplish anything, it can be just for show.

Perhaps signs can be added, like around stations, "WARNING, Leaving UIT Guarded Space" or some such, I know there is a HUD message, but somehow I feel it gets ignored, or it just doesn't get read.