Forums » Suggestions
i'm playing couple of rpg like games at the moment to get the feel for what works and doesn't, so here i would like to discuss rpg ideas and how they can be incorporated in vendetta.
1.weapon experience levels
many games have various experiences for different types of weapons affecting damage weapon can deal in one shot. also this affects what weapons you can use.
in vendetta i can see weapons experiences divided in energy, rockets, particle, mines, gravity.
for example, using tachs in 20 fights will add points for each fight performed using them. player starts at 0 and with 20 fights gets to level 1 of energy weapon experience. now his tachs will do 10% more damage and he's accuracy will also improve slightly. with level 1 he can also purchase and use say Gravitons. level 3 will enable player to use gauss cannons.
using sunflares will improve rocket skill and possibly affect damage level of his rockets. after player gets to level 5 he can use avalons.
list goes on.
2.levels.
you can have different skill levels for various actions you do in game. easiest ones are - combat, trade, production.
combat - after each fight you get some EXP points (different from experience i discussed above). For example, if you destroy a player with combat level 2 and you are only a noob with combat level 0 you will get say 30 EXP points. on other hand, if level 2 player destroys you he will only get 10 EXP points. with 150 EXP points you become level 1 in combat skill. this level will enable you to buy better ship. each ship should have prerequisite for various skills, depending on qualities of ship. For example you can only buy bus and cent to start with, with level 1 of combat you can get vulture. to get valk you need to be level 3 in combat and 12 in technology parameter.
trade levels affect profits you can make, prices will adjust depending on your levels.
production affects your employments stats and manufacturing process.
when you advance in combat levels you can get 3 points to affect your parameters (this is the only way to change them). which brings me to
3.player parameters
let's say you have 4 different parameters. strength, accuracy, health and technology.
everybody starts with 10 points of each. new player gets 3 points to distribute among his parameters. for example he can throw 1 point to accuracy and 2 to health.
now, his health will be 120% of stock hull and he will have 110% of normal accuracy.
strength affects damage your weapons do
accuracy affects accuracy
health affects your hull level
technology affects ability to use electronics. homing missiles, radars, different high tech ships and weapons you name it.
with each new level of combat you can have 2 more points to distribute around your parameters.
with each new level of trade your strength can go up by 1pt.
with new level of production your technology goes up by 1pt.
-------
now what we might have.
let's say I just joined the game.
I have 1000 credits.
I have standard bus.
my parameters are all 10pts.
my levels are all zero (i haven't done anything).
my experience with weapons is also zero (i haven't been in the fight).
I leave station and head to sector 11. I find a noob from different team like myself and we engage into the fight. Having destroyed him, I receive 12 points of combat experience and 1point for my energy weapon experience. on the way to station i get attacked by Phoenix (combat level 4) and die. he gets 4 points of combat experience making it 1843 and 1 point for rockets. to progress to next level he needs 2500 in combat. it's obvious he won't get there by attacking me over and over, but rather by going after his own kind of built up chars.
let's discuss. I would really enjoy real RPG parameters, levels and experience in vendetta. it would eliminate griefing. it would add extra dimension to the game. it will make people come back to the game more often. it will replace current point system. it will iron your clothes and cook you breakfast.
1.weapon experience levels
many games have various experiences for different types of weapons affecting damage weapon can deal in one shot. also this affects what weapons you can use.
in vendetta i can see weapons experiences divided in energy, rockets, particle, mines, gravity.
for example, using tachs in 20 fights will add points for each fight performed using them. player starts at 0 and with 20 fights gets to level 1 of energy weapon experience. now his tachs will do 10% more damage and he's accuracy will also improve slightly. with level 1 he can also purchase and use say Gravitons. level 3 will enable player to use gauss cannons.
using sunflares will improve rocket skill and possibly affect damage level of his rockets. after player gets to level 5 he can use avalons.
list goes on.
2.levels.
you can have different skill levels for various actions you do in game. easiest ones are - combat, trade, production.
combat - after each fight you get some EXP points (different from experience i discussed above). For example, if you destroy a player with combat level 2 and you are only a noob with combat level 0 you will get say 30 EXP points. on other hand, if level 2 player destroys you he will only get 10 EXP points. with 150 EXP points you become level 1 in combat skill. this level will enable you to buy better ship. each ship should have prerequisite for various skills, depending on qualities of ship. For example you can only buy bus and cent to start with, with level 1 of combat you can get vulture. to get valk you need to be level 3 in combat and 12 in technology parameter.
trade levels affect profits you can make, prices will adjust depending on your levels.
production affects your employments stats and manufacturing process.
when you advance in combat levels you can get 3 points to affect your parameters (this is the only way to change them). which brings me to
3.player parameters
let's say you have 4 different parameters. strength, accuracy, health and technology.
everybody starts with 10 points of each. new player gets 3 points to distribute among his parameters. for example he can throw 1 point to accuracy and 2 to health.
now, his health will be 120% of stock hull and he will have 110% of normal accuracy.
strength affects damage your weapons do
accuracy affects accuracy
health affects your hull level
technology affects ability to use electronics. homing missiles, radars, different high tech ships and weapons you name it.
with each new level of combat you can have 2 more points to distribute around your parameters.
with each new level of trade your strength can go up by 1pt.
with new level of production your technology goes up by 1pt.
-------
now what we might have.
let's say I just joined the game.
I have 1000 credits.
I have standard bus.
my parameters are all 10pts.
my levels are all zero (i haven't done anything).
my experience with weapons is also zero (i haven't been in the fight).
I leave station and head to sector 11. I find a noob from different team like myself and we engage into the fight. Having destroyed him, I receive 12 points of combat experience and 1point for my energy weapon experience. on the way to station i get attacked by Phoenix (combat level 4) and die. he gets 4 points of combat experience making it 1843 and 1 point for rockets. to progress to next level he needs 2500 in combat. it's obvious he won't get there by attacking me over and over, but rather by going after his own kind of built up chars.
let's discuss. I would really enjoy real RPG parameters, levels and experience in vendetta. it would eliminate griefing. it would add extra dimension to the game. it will make people come back to the game more often. it will replace current point system. it will iron your clothes and cook you breakfast.
It's a fascinating idea, but I'm not sure whether it would make logical sense. The problem is that Vendetta isn't like a lot of other RPGs due to the fact that your avatar is a mechanical unit that you can purchase on a whim. Whereas in a melee RPG, the more you swing your sword, the more damage you will be able to inflict, here, a sunflare should always do the same amount of damage, unless you have somehow modified the warhead.
The one thing I would like to see is the progressive availability of weapons and ships. However, I think the should be tied to the faction/reputation system. Then, basically, the government would authorize you to certain technologies as you proved yourself. This much more logically follows logically from the way things would probably work in real life.
I see it the same way as soundguy does. The character advancement should be reputation based, not attribute based. You aren't develpoing a set of muscles or reflexes so as to be able to do more damage with your attack.
Extra damage/accuracy should be gained by gaining the trust of a group(NT, Itani, Serco, Pirates, Mercenaries, etc) that has access to better technology than you have now. Then you can only buy it at a location where that group has a presence large enough to have that weapon/ship on hand if your reputation falls into the appropriate category. You gain/loose reputation by your actions.
Peacefully Trading goods to a station with a leaning towards a faction will slightly improve your ranking with them (maybe to as much as +2 before the gain from trading is insignificant) Completing missions succesfully will further increase your reputation and give access to more complex missions.
Killing a member of that faction unprovoked will cause an immediate "ban" from that factions stations for a set period of time along with a loss of reputation with that group.
You would start out with a 0 in reputation with all factions except the one you chose to play as when creating your character. That faction would give you a reputation of +3 "mostly Good", access to a stock bus and the ability to buy a couple of other ship hulls and a few better weapons.
I would rank the reputation blocks from say -10 (Kill On Sight) to +10 (National Hero)
For instance you might be able to buy the Valkarie at any base where the Itani have a significant garrison, and only if you have a reputation of +7 "Excellent" with the government.
The Gauss cannon would be availible from any faction, but only once your reputation is +4 "Good" with them.
I do like the idea of a skills set however, it just cant be combat based.
for example a set of skills on a 0 to +10 rating with 0 being the start. you gain skill points as your character progresses and can spend them on your characters skills.
Skills
Appraise- this allows you to better evaluate the quality of goods and barter appropriately. Prices are adjusted (by a small amount, no more than 1 or 2 % per level) based on your ranking in this skill.
Impersonate- Gives you a benefit when trying to pass yourself off as someone of a different faction. (example an Itani character with a +9 reputation is trying to complete the mission: infiltrate the Serco base in sector 197 and steal a prometheous equipped with the new serconian radar jammer) at 0 you know nothining about another culture, at +10 you ARE 007.
Repair- Use this skill to patch up parts of your ship, therefore reducing or eliminating the cost of fixing ship parts. The higher your ranking the more complex the repairs you can complete. NOTE: this skill would require you to be in a station where you have at least a +1 reputation to use so that you can work uninterrupted for anything other than minor damage. This would be very very useful once the damage is broken down into parts of the ship and repairs become expensive again.
Of course these are just a few examples of possible skills. Nothing combat related, the only way to improve combat standing is to raise your reputation and buy better quality equipment.
I do like the idea of a tiered experience gain as well. A player with the benifits of a high number of reputation/skill points would get a good return from completing missions geared to his/her level or fighting with people of similar experience. The same player would get a very poor benefit from killing people with very few or no skill/reputation points. That would at least provide a disincentive to n00b killing by the experienced players.
There will always be some who like to kill for the hell of it, however that can also be drastically reduced by providing faction only areas where you can only dock if you have a reputation of +3 or better with that faction. something like our home areas are now only several more wormhole jumps deep. The n00bs would start well back from the area where truly hostile players fly.
Hmm i've rambled on enough for one morning.
Extra damage/accuracy should be gained by gaining the trust of a group(NT, Itani, Serco, Pirates, Mercenaries, etc) that has access to better technology than you have now. Then you can only buy it at a location where that group has a presence large enough to have that weapon/ship on hand if your reputation falls into the appropriate category. You gain/loose reputation by your actions.
Peacefully Trading goods to a station with a leaning towards a faction will slightly improve your ranking with them (maybe to as much as +2 before the gain from trading is insignificant) Completing missions succesfully will further increase your reputation and give access to more complex missions.
Killing a member of that faction unprovoked will cause an immediate "ban" from that factions stations for a set period of time along with a loss of reputation with that group.
You would start out with a 0 in reputation with all factions except the one you chose to play as when creating your character. That faction would give you a reputation of +3 "mostly Good", access to a stock bus and the ability to buy a couple of other ship hulls and a few better weapons.
I would rank the reputation blocks from say -10 (Kill On Sight) to +10 (National Hero)
For instance you might be able to buy the Valkarie at any base where the Itani have a significant garrison, and only if you have a reputation of +7 "Excellent" with the government.
The Gauss cannon would be availible from any faction, but only once your reputation is +4 "Good" with them.
I do like the idea of a skills set however, it just cant be combat based.
for example a set of skills on a 0 to +10 rating with 0 being the start. you gain skill points as your character progresses and can spend them on your characters skills.
Skills
Appraise- this allows you to better evaluate the quality of goods and barter appropriately. Prices are adjusted (by a small amount, no more than 1 or 2 % per level) based on your ranking in this skill.
Impersonate- Gives you a benefit when trying to pass yourself off as someone of a different faction. (example an Itani character with a +9 reputation is trying to complete the mission: infiltrate the Serco base in sector 197 and steal a prometheous equipped with the new serconian radar jammer) at 0 you know nothining about another culture, at +10 you ARE 007.
Repair- Use this skill to patch up parts of your ship, therefore reducing or eliminating the cost of fixing ship parts. The higher your ranking the more complex the repairs you can complete. NOTE: this skill would require you to be in a station where you have at least a +1 reputation to use so that you can work uninterrupted for anything other than minor damage. This would be very very useful once the damage is broken down into parts of the ship and repairs become expensive again.
Of course these are just a few examples of possible skills. Nothing combat related, the only way to improve combat standing is to raise your reputation and buy better quality equipment.
I do like the idea of a tiered experience gain as well. A player with the benifits of a high number of reputation/skill points would get a good return from completing missions geared to his/her level or fighting with people of similar experience. The same player would get a very poor benefit from killing people with very few or no skill/reputation points. That would at least provide a disincentive to n00b killing by the experienced players.
There will always be some who like to kill for the hell of it, however that can also be drastically reduced by providing faction only areas where you can only dock if you have a reputation of +3 or better with that faction. something like our home areas are now only several more wormhole jumps deep. The n00bs would start well back from the area where truly hostile players fly.
Hmm i've rambled on enough for one morning.
I was thinking repairs cost less money with more skill. So as you get more skillfull you can repair minor damage for free. Or you can do some of the repairs youself and then let the NPCs do the major stuff and only pay them for part of the full labor.
thats one of the benefits as I see it too magus. hmm guess i did forget to specify that. it's useful cause it reduces the cost of the expensive repairs. /me goes to edit his above post.
another use for the repair i can see would be to patchtogether badly damaged systems to a partial functionality. EG you just fended off a pirate attack but your engine is blown and you can move only on thrusters (max spped 10m/s) with some repair ability you can duct tape the Engine back together enough to make 30m/s instead.
another use for the repair i can see would be to patchtogether badly damaged systems to a partial functionality. EG you just fended off a pirate attack but your engine is blown and you can move only on thrusters (max spped 10m/s) with some repair ability you can duct tape the Engine back together enough to make 30m/s instead.
I fail to understand the limitation regarding tech-skills. A good pilot would be able to gain a few extra sq.newt. to rolls and turns, to illustrate his proficiency. That could then be devided into ship-types or something. Similar with (faulty?) autoaim-systems, a capable gunner would get them to perform better? (if it is even possible to grade the autoaim)
As far a getting more yield from weapons - well, go watch a few episodes of StarTrek. They rig and re-rig their weapons for yield, accuracy and effects 8)
Trade-skills are all good and that, but shouldnt give much advantage - otherwise balancing the game-setting will be neigh to ompissable!
Repair and scooping could help getting more from salvaged "space-junk", while minin+scooping could be used to mine space-objects (roids and satelites). Scooping on its own, would be usefull for refueling (ram-scoop)
Hirering could then be a matter of getting capable hands on-board to complement you (I want a ship with a turret, and some girl controllling it!)
I guess that there are shit-loads of options, just be careful not to dismiss any out of hand ;)
/G
ps: now we just need smilie-support on the fora!
As far a getting more yield from weapons - well, go watch a few episodes of StarTrek. They rig and re-rig their weapons for yield, accuracy and effects 8)
Trade-skills are all good and that, but shouldnt give much advantage - otherwise balancing the game-setting will be neigh to ompissable!
Repair and scooping could help getting more from salvaged "space-junk", while minin+scooping could be used to mine space-objects (roids and satelites). Scooping on its own, would be usefull for refueling (ram-scoop)
Hirering could then be a matter of getting capable hands on-board to complement you (I want a ship with a turret, and some girl controllling it!)
I guess that there are shit-loads of options, just be careful not to dismiss any out of hand ;)
/G
ps: now we just need smilie-support on the fora!
<<I fail to understand the limitation regarding tech-skills. A good pilot would be able to gain a few extra sq.newt. to rolls and turns, to illustrate his proficiency. >>
no, if i have the exact same ship you have, with the exact same items equipped, the ships should operate exactly the same. You gain better rolls and turns by buying better equipment, upgraded thrusters etc, which you can do with a better reputation. Alternatively your repair skill (or something similar) might allow you to attempt to "tweak" a piece of existing equipment (with a chance to fail and destroy the item you are working on, determined by your skill and the complexity of the item), given a place to work uninterrupted. I don't feel that you should be able to purchase a skill point in "pilot" and get better performace than someone without that skill point. Instead you put your skill point in "repair" and use a drop down menu in the station to tweak your engine. taking some time and maybe a few credits to buy parts. The end result is similar, but has one significant difference. If you loose the ship that has extra performace because it has been "tweaked" it will take you time and resources to tweak the replacement. This adds another penalty for dying that you dont have if the ship performance boost is a part of your character, not the ship itself.
<<Similar with (faulty?) autoaim-systems, a capable gunner would get them to perform better? (if it is even possible to grade the autoaim)>>
All the autoaim is is a prediction of where the target will be when your weapon shot intercepts it based on the targets current speed and direction. I would like to see upgrades to the autoaim system that would increse the effective "arc" of your autoaim (maybe something that would effectively upgrade the built in autoaim radius of the weapons by 1 level). However the major problem with autoaim is that it is horribly confused by barrel rolls, and there is no way for the autoaim to predict curving paths, this is unfortunately a problem in all automatic aiming algorythms, vendetta or otherwise. This is why most singleplayer games give the AI an advantage and allow it to cheat by curving bullet paths and the like, as no current aimbot can consistently anticipate a human player.
<<As far a getting more yield from weapons - well, go watch a few episodes of StarTrek>>
see above regarding tweaking. Getting better weapons effectiveness can be accomplished without making it a character skill. To use your own example, in star trek it always takes them time to reconfigure the weapons, engines etc and it is always someone with knowledge either of the computers controlling the weapon or an engineer who understands the machinery itself who modifies the equipment.
"We dinna have enough time Capn, She cannae take mooch more of this." to quote Scotty.
<<Trade-skills are all good and that, but shouldnt give much advantage - otherwise balancing the game-setting will be neigh to ompissable!>>
hence my suggestion that the appraise skill provide no more than a 1-2% change in price per level. It could also be set up so that level 1 gives you a 1% change, level 2 gives you 2%, etc untill you reach level 5 (5% difference from baseline) after which the additional levels only add a half of a %, thus at level 10 you would get a 7.5% change from baseline. Adding trade based skills wouldnt be that difficult to balance, besides who is better at getting a good deal? someone who does it for a living, or someone who occasionally stops by a store and picks up some groceries. the idea behind trade skills is to give a benefit to those who dont want to spend all their time fighting.
<<Hirering could then be a matter of getting capable hands on-board to complement you >> I'm not sure what this has to do with the topic at hand
<< guess that there are shit-loads of options, just be careful not to dismiss any out of hand >>
this is true, there are lots of options, however IMO it would be more interesting and fair to players just starting out if the only thing affecting the performance of the ship is the equipment you have mounted to it. Thus a high level character has no better performance from a stock bus than a n00bie does. Admittedly the high level character isn't likely to fly a stock bus, but if he gets into one it should perform the same way as the n00bie's.
Being able to tweak equipment is an example of a skill that is not directly related to combat, but still provides a combat advantage. These are the type of skills I would like to see.
Look at it in the following perspective. knowing how to make and use a sword would give you an advantage in a fight with someone who only knew how to fistfight, but only if you had time to make one beforehand.
Similarly knowing how to tweak your ships weapons and equipment by having skill points that allow you to do so would give you an advantage over someone who doesnt have those skills, but only if you put some forethought and planning into it.
The primary focus of vendetta is ship based combat, and one of the things that I like the most about it is the "twitch" factor. the battles are decided by the ability of the player, not by a variable set in a computer somewhere. Adding skills that can be used to directly influence combat would IMO detract from that. Adding a skill that requires some time and planning to improve your chances in combat seems to me to fit much better with the games basic "feel".
no, if i have the exact same ship you have, with the exact same items equipped, the ships should operate exactly the same. You gain better rolls and turns by buying better equipment, upgraded thrusters etc, which you can do with a better reputation. Alternatively your repair skill (or something similar) might allow you to attempt to "tweak" a piece of existing equipment (with a chance to fail and destroy the item you are working on, determined by your skill and the complexity of the item), given a place to work uninterrupted. I don't feel that you should be able to purchase a skill point in "pilot" and get better performace than someone without that skill point. Instead you put your skill point in "repair" and use a drop down menu in the station to tweak your engine. taking some time and maybe a few credits to buy parts. The end result is similar, but has one significant difference. If you loose the ship that has extra performace because it has been "tweaked" it will take you time and resources to tweak the replacement. This adds another penalty for dying that you dont have if the ship performance boost is a part of your character, not the ship itself.
<<Similar with (faulty?) autoaim-systems, a capable gunner would get them to perform better? (if it is even possible to grade the autoaim)>>
All the autoaim is is a prediction of where the target will be when your weapon shot intercepts it based on the targets current speed and direction. I would like to see upgrades to the autoaim system that would increse the effective "arc" of your autoaim (maybe something that would effectively upgrade the built in autoaim radius of the weapons by 1 level). However the major problem with autoaim is that it is horribly confused by barrel rolls, and there is no way for the autoaim to predict curving paths, this is unfortunately a problem in all automatic aiming algorythms, vendetta or otherwise. This is why most singleplayer games give the AI an advantage and allow it to cheat by curving bullet paths and the like, as no current aimbot can consistently anticipate a human player.
<<As far a getting more yield from weapons - well, go watch a few episodes of StarTrek>>
see above regarding tweaking. Getting better weapons effectiveness can be accomplished without making it a character skill. To use your own example, in star trek it always takes them time to reconfigure the weapons, engines etc and it is always someone with knowledge either of the computers controlling the weapon or an engineer who understands the machinery itself who modifies the equipment.
"We dinna have enough time Capn, She cannae take mooch more of this." to quote Scotty.
<<Trade-skills are all good and that, but shouldnt give much advantage - otherwise balancing the game-setting will be neigh to ompissable!>>
hence my suggestion that the appraise skill provide no more than a 1-2% change in price per level. It could also be set up so that level 1 gives you a 1% change, level 2 gives you 2%, etc untill you reach level 5 (5% difference from baseline) after which the additional levels only add a half of a %, thus at level 10 you would get a 7.5% change from baseline. Adding trade based skills wouldnt be that difficult to balance, besides who is better at getting a good deal? someone who does it for a living, or someone who occasionally stops by a store and picks up some groceries. the idea behind trade skills is to give a benefit to those who dont want to spend all their time fighting.
<<Hirering could then be a matter of getting capable hands on-board to complement you >> I'm not sure what this has to do with the topic at hand
<< guess that there are shit-loads of options, just be careful not to dismiss any out of hand >>
this is true, there are lots of options, however IMO it would be more interesting and fair to players just starting out if the only thing affecting the performance of the ship is the equipment you have mounted to it. Thus a high level character has no better performance from a stock bus than a n00bie does. Admittedly the high level character isn't likely to fly a stock bus, but if he gets into one it should perform the same way as the n00bie's.
Being able to tweak equipment is an example of a skill that is not directly related to combat, but still provides a combat advantage. These are the type of skills I would like to see.
Look at it in the following perspective. knowing how to make and use a sword would give you an advantage in a fight with someone who only knew how to fistfight, but only if you had time to make one beforehand.
Similarly knowing how to tweak your ships weapons and equipment by having skill points that allow you to do so would give you an advantage over someone who doesnt have those skills, but only if you put some forethought and planning into it.
The primary focus of vendetta is ship based combat, and one of the things that I like the most about it is the "twitch" factor. the battles are decided by the ability of the player, not by a variable set in a computer somewhere. Adding skills that can be used to directly influence combat would IMO detract from that. Adding a skill that requires some time and planning to improve your chances in combat seems to me to fit much better with the games basic "feel".
Spooky. You sound just like Celebrim.
Well, we'll never agree I think - I stand by my notion of time invested being returned to the player at some level through skills :)
>>no, if i have the exact same ship you have, with the exact same items equipped, the ships should operate exactly the same.
One place I disagree - Experience does mean alot, otherwise why do car-companies do so darn much to get specific drivers? Is Hakkinen simply the result of better engines/tires/brakes/whatever? (And yes, I can just play the game alot, and I'll improve ...)
>>You gain better rolls and turns by buying better equipment, upgraded thrusters etc, which you can do with a better reputation.
I'm sooo against reputation-systems as a mean to limit the equiment available - Cash simply opens up tooo many doors ;)
>>I don't feel that you should be able to purchase a skill point in "pilot" and get better performace than someone without that skill point.
"Purchase"?? Nonono - experience gained from using a specific item over a loooong time. Eg. experience in vultures or EC-88s or whatever. And in the case of tweaked EQ, the XP gain would lessen since its not the stock item you are basing your skill on anymore.
>><<Hirering could then be a matter of getting capable hands on-board to complement you >> I'm not sure what this has to do with the topic at hand
Hirering .. skill .. the ability to barter salery and judge the abilities of the person being hired - Usually handled by Human Ressource-departments. We were discussing skill-sets, not?
>>To use your own example, in star trek it always takes them time to reconfigure the weapons, engines etc and it is always someone with knowledge either of the computers controlling the weapon or an engineer who understands the machinery itself who modifies the equipment.
Yup, and I do hope to spend ALOT of time in my ship, using my weapon and battery and engine and .....
>> The primary focus of vendetta is ship based combat, and one of the things that I like the most about it is the "twitch" factor.
Uhm, prolly - In which case I might as well move along. I like space-combat, but prefere games where its not the make all-break all issue :) (Otherwise I'd go buy Freespace I+II)
Perhaps I'm just too Elite 2: Frontier'ish
/G
>>no, if i have the exact same ship you have, with the exact same items equipped, the ships should operate exactly the same.
One place I disagree - Experience does mean alot, otherwise why do car-companies do so darn much to get specific drivers? Is Hakkinen simply the result of better engines/tires/brakes/whatever? (And yes, I can just play the game alot, and I'll improve ...)
>>You gain better rolls and turns by buying better equipment, upgraded thrusters etc, which you can do with a better reputation.
I'm sooo against reputation-systems as a mean to limit the equiment available - Cash simply opens up tooo many doors ;)
>>I don't feel that you should be able to purchase a skill point in "pilot" and get better performace than someone without that skill point.
"Purchase"?? Nonono - experience gained from using a specific item over a loooong time. Eg. experience in vultures or EC-88s or whatever. And in the case of tweaked EQ, the XP gain would lessen since its not the stock item you are basing your skill on anymore.
>><<Hirering could then be a matter of getting capable hands on-board to complement you >> I'm not sure what this has to do with the topic at hand
Hirering .. skill .. the ability to barter salery and judge the abilities of the person being hired - Usually handled by Human Ressource-departments. We were discussing skill-sets, not?
>>To use your own example, in star trek it always takes them time to reconfigure the weapons, engines etc and it is always someone with knowledge either of the computers controlling the weapon or an engineer who understands the machinery itself who modifies the equipment.
Yup, and I do hope to spend ALOT of time in my ship, using my weapon and battery and engine and .....
>> The primary focus of vendetta is ship based combat, and one of the things that I like the most about it is the "twitch" factor.
Uhm, prolly - In which case I might as well move along. I like space-combat, but prefere games where its not the make all-break all issue :) (Otherwise I'd go buy Freespace I+II)
Perhaps I'm just too Elite 2: Frontier'ish
/G
d00d, to make skills influence piloting would be IMPOSSIBLE. You ARE the pilot, and you fly as well as you fly. You can't go earn "skills" to make your fingers go faster...
<<Spooky. You sound just like Celebrim.>>
rogue: i'll take that as a complement. :)
GThang. rouge sums it up perfectly. YOU are the pilot. thats the twitch factor, the more time you play, the better you will learn how your ship flys, and what it's limits are.
<<I stand by my notion of time invested being returned to the player at some level through skills :)>>
I am not against having higher level characters have skills that you earn to allow you to modify your ships performance, but you need to spend time and resources, in a station, with the chance of totally destroying the part you are "tweaking", to adjust your ship. You should not be able to buy parts off the shelves and get better performance directly out of them than someone who doesnt have the same level you do, just because you have been playing longer. your return comes in the ability to "tweak" the part. it doesn't have to take an hour, just a few clicks of the mouse and a percentile roll, some spare part wigits or credits to go buy them.
Obviously you didnt relate to my prior example, so we'll try another one. If you were a master mechanic, with years of training, you could go buy an off the shelf car engine and adjust the valves, pistons, timing, plugs, etc and make it perform significantly better than it did originally, giving you a better top speed, accelleration etc.
on the other hand bing a Pro Racecar Driver would not give you the ability to step into my car and make it go any faster than I could drive it. You might have better control over it at 100 MPH than I would, for a significantly longer time, but the performance limitation is on the vehicle, not the driver. Which brings us to this jewel of distorted logic.
<<Experience does mean alot, otherwise why do car-companies do so darn much to get specific drivers? Is Hakkinen simply the result of better engines/tires/brakes/whatever? (And yes, I can just play the game alot, and I'll improve ...)>>
you have missed the point. the driver couldn't win races without the engine/tires/brakes/whatever. a driver is hired for his ability to know the limits of the vehicle and push as close to those limits as possible. put Dale Earnhart Jr in a 1985 Ford Pickup truck with 150k miles on it and he's not going to win any stockcar races in it. I'll bet after a day or two he could tell you exactly at what RPM's it was most effecient to shift gears at in the vehicle and how fast it could safely accelerate around a curve, but he wouldn't be able to exceed the mechanical limitations of the equipment.
In the case of Vendetta, you are the pilot (driver). through playing the game and learning the controls, you will be able to outfly a new pilot in the same ship. I would wager that myself, Roguelazer, StarFreeze or Phoenix (especially Phoenix) could take a hog with a med/fast engine/batt combo and fly it in ways that you would be unable to duplicate in the same ship. We have played long enough to learn how the ships fly and what they can do.
<<Hirering .. skill .. the ability to barter salery and judge the abilities of the person being hired - Usually handled by Human Ressource-departments. We were discussing skill-sets, not?>>
more or less, i still fail to see how this has any bearing on improving the performance of a ship in flight, since all our current models are single player controlled, but i'll accept it as an idea towards the theoretical skills list for players.
<<>>To use your own example, in star trek it always takes them time to reconfigure the weapons, engines etc and it is always someone with knowledge either of the computers controlling the weapon or an engineer who understands the machinery itself who modifies the equipment.
Yup, and I do hope to spend ALOT of time in my ship, using my weapon and battery and engine and .....>>
USING THEM, using them does not give you the ability to modify them.
I know many people who can USE a personal computer but wouldnt have the slightest idea how to change a harddrive or swap out a motherboard. using your ship in space is great, you will learn the limitations of your ship. to modify the limitations should take time and specific knowledge (skills).
last part of your post that I have to object to
<<I'm sooo against reputation-systems as a mean to limit the equiment available - Cash simply opens up tooo many doors ;)>>
great so cash opens doors, there can be "black market" sectors that you can find, earn a "shady" reputation with the merchants there and buy anything your heart desires. It's still reputation based, even in the real worlkd.
If you were to go to new york city and try to use cash to buy 200 pounds of C4 without knowing who to contact, you'd end up in jail. Even if you knew of an illegal arms dealer, he/she probably wouldnt deal with you unless you had a connection that s/he trusted, since people who deal in illegal weapons dont sell to any old joe schmoe who walks off the street. They dont want to sell to an undercover cop.
(hmm speaking of which and way off topic, theres a high level mission for ya, develop a reputation of at least +6 with the arms smuggler "Baron Blood" and bring us the name of his Supplier in sector 149)
>> The primary focus of vendetta is ship based combat, and one of the things that I like the most about it is the "twitch" factor.
ok this point was poorly worded on my part
<<Uhm, prolly - In which case I might as well move along. I like space-combat, but prefer games where its not the make all-break all issue :)
(Otherwise I'd go buy Freespace I+II)
Perhaps I'm just too Elite 2: Frontier'ish>>
the main danger focus for player vs player revolves around ship to ship combat. I fully expect that in the long run there will be many other things to do using missions, police patrolled "safe" areas for each nation to trade in internally, explorers that will be out on the fringe and only dealing with the occasional rogue aliens. Please don't give up on vendetta, regardless of how my views differ from yours, Maybe the devs see it more like you do. The discussions here are to present ideas and allow for informed thoughtful debate of said ideas. I welcome your ideas and thank you, as responding to you has forced me to more thougouhly resove my own ideas.
Perhaps I can shed a little light on GT's crew comments. They go back to our discussions regarding PC frigates. Theoretically, such a ship would require more than one person to operate. So you'd have to either hire a crew or convince some of your buddies to, say, man the turrets.
Then, since your crew would be composed at least partly of NPCs, you could apply an experience system to them. The longer you have fought together, the better they get. For example, your turret gunners would get better and better at hitting moving targets.
This is just another idea. Personally, I wouldn't want to spend time training a crew. It would just take too long. So perhaps, you could hire an already trained crew. Just some food for thought...
Then, since your crew would be composed at least partly of NPCs, you could apply an experience system to them. The longer you have fought together, the better they get. For example, your turret gunners would get better and better at hitting moving targets.
This is just another idea. Personally, I wouldn't want to spend time training a crew. It would just take too long. So perhaps, you could hire an already trained crew. Just some food for thought...
As regards to capital ships and NPC controlled turrents I have no significant issues with allowing time to increase effectiveness, within limits. the major problem of increasing the accuracy of the turrets unfortunately falls right back into the aimbot problems discussed farther up the thread. no Programmed algorythm is ever going to be able to totally anticipate a human pilot without using borderline "cheating" tactics.
@SoundGuy:
Yeah, the descriptions for Vendetta talks about larger ships requiring more that just a pilot..
@Spellcast:
I'm not saying skills should make the ship perform beyond its capabilities - just that no "noob" as people like to call us (ignoring the 3 days it took to track down a gfx bug, I've only played since last night) can push the hardware to the limit. There appear to be several things, at least in "arcarde mode", where the computer is doing stuff, and which could be used to illustrate XP gained. That I've somehow given the impression that piloting-skills would enhance hardware is an error on my behalf, I simply meant it as a way to better utilize said hardware and get it closer to its current max/tolerating the extra Gs exerted.
As far as getting "more performance", then yes, tinker away with various parts. I wouldnt mind a "tinker-skill" or "repair" or whatever, which might just help you when the ship is falling apart and you need to limp into port :) This way you could allow for tuning/enhancing/going LEGO on machine-parts and getting costum-made items into the game.
To me at least, the two above item are seperate, but if I'll gladly accept the former as exclusive to meat-space.
Regarding reputation, then I was a bit short. There are alot of places where it is correct to use it, but having spent Xmas playing NFS:U, I've gotten pretty fed up with not being able to buy standard components for my car, simply due to reputation. Rep should not be made to limit _everything_.
Finally, I'm not leaving Vendetta - at least not if I soon can get to the point where I dont killed as soon as I upgrade my EC-88 and venture outside S4... I do hope the Devs see our discussion and use it for reference nomatter what their views may be :)
(Heck, if they want I'll throw in a few tens of skill-suggestions to really get things going!)
/G
Yeah, the descriptions for Vendetta talks about larger ships requiring more that just a pilot..
@Spellcast:
I'm not saying skills should make the ship perform beyond its capabilities - just that no "noob" as people like to call us (ignoring the 3 days it took to track down a gfx bug, I've only played since last night) can push the hardware to the limit. There appear to be several things, at least in "arcarde mode", where the computer is doing stuff, and which could be used to illustrate XP gained. That I've somehow given the impression that piloting-skills would enhance hardware is an error on my behalf, I simply meant it as a way to better utilize said hardware and get it closer to its current max/tolerating the extra Gs exerted.
As far as getting "more performance", then yes, tinker away with various parts. I wouldnt mind a "tinker-skill" or "repair" or whatever, which might just help you when the ship is falling apart and you need to limp into port :) This way you could allow for tuning/enhancing/going LEGO on machine-parts and getting costum-made items into the game.
To me at least, the two above item are seperate, but if I'll gladly accept the former as exclusive to meat-space.
Regarding reputation, then I was a bit short. There are alot of places where it is correct to use it, but having spent Xmas playing NFS:U, I've gotten pretty fed up with not being able to buy standard components for my car, simply due to reputation. Rep should not be made to limit _everything_.
Finally, I'm not leaving Vendetta - at least not if I soon can get to the point where I dont killed as soon as I upgrade my EC-88 and venture outside S4... I do hope the Devs see our discussion and use it for reference nomatter what their views may be :)
(Heck, if they want I'll throw in a few tens of skill-suggestions to really get things going!)
/G
ahh, GThang, you will actually find that as you play the game more, you will get more out of your ship, thats something that you will discover as you go however, and it doesn't need to be computer assisted.
as far as the arcade mode, As a long term player I highly recommend learning to fly in physics, since the ability to fly backwards has huge advantages when you are dodging incoming fire.
I'm not saying that everything should be reputation based, there will always be some items availible. and there will be NO way to have a negative reputation with everyone. for instance if you piss off all 3 govts, you automatically gain reputation points with the anarchists, black marketeers and pirates. piss off the pirates and one of the nations now loves you. I forsee ALWAYS having at least 1 faction that you can buy better stuff off of.
besides there could be many forms of reputation, simply having a reputation as "clueless + 10" could get you into a black market, you might pay rediculously high prices, but the dealer is SURE you arent a cop. no cop would ever wear that shirt with those pants, or fly around in that ship in this sector and not even have a spaceship alarm on it.
as far as the arcade mode, As a long term player I highly recommend learning to fly in physics, since the ability to fly backwards has huge advantages when you are dodging incoming fire.
I'm not saying that everything should be reputation based, there will always be some items availible. and there will be NO way to have a negative reputation with everyone. for instance if you piss off all 3 govts, you automatically gain reputation points with the anarchists, black marketeers and pirates. piss off the pirates and one of the nations now loves you. I forsee ALWAYS having at least 1 faction that you can buy better stuff off of.
besides there could be many forms of reputation, simply having a reputation as "clueless + 10" could get you into a black market, you might pay rediculously high prices, but the dealer is SURE you arent a cop. no cop would ever wear that shirt with those pants, or fly around in that ship in this sector and not even have a spaceship alarm on it.
i still call for XP based levels.
all this reputation through factions means you can't do it alone. you have to join some smartarse's "syndicate" and gain "reputation" to get better things.
I don't ask devs to implement my suggestions as they are, but limiting people's ability to buy good ships straight away is a good thing. giving no bonus to people who kill noobs is a good thing. awarding players who have invested time in the game is a great thing. allowing you to customize your characters parameters is GREAT if you want people to keep coming back.
Perhaps shallow carreer path for pilots today is the reason for present state of community.
and no, i won't join somebody's syndicate just to get points. i am talking about whole spectrum of parameters that NEED to be here for this game to be classified as RPG.
all this reputation through factions means you can't do it alone. you have to join some smartarse's "syndicate" and gain "reputation" to get better things.
I don't ask devs to implement my suggestions as they are, but limiting people's ability to buy good ships straight away is a good thing. giving no bonus to people who kill noobs is a good thing. awarding players who have invested time in the game is a great thing. allowing you to customize your characters parameters is GREAT if you want people to keep coming back.
Perhaps shallow carreer path for pilots today is the reason for present state of community.
and no, i won't join somebody's syndicate just to get points. i am talking about whole spectrum of parameters that NEED to be here for this game to be classified as RPG.
<<all this reputation through factions means you can't do it alone. you have to join some smartarse's "syndicate" and gain "reputation" to get better things.>>
I think you have somewhat missed the concept here. The idea isn't that you "join" a faction to try to increase your reputation with them. the reputation is a totally automatic series of ups & downs based on what you do. It's sort of an indicator of how the NPC shopkeepers feel about you.
If you go to a merchant in sector 79(the sector is in a state of anarchy and a known pirate base) who has strong ties to the pirates, and you have been pirating lately, he's heard about it from his other customers and is willing to deal with you on more favorable terms. on the other hand if you have been bounty hunting, he's heard that instead and he isn't willing to do buisness with you beyond some very basic items.
By the same token completing missions for the governments will boost the amount of trust they are willing to place in you when you visit a sector that is sympathetic to them or under their direct rule.
Finally I envision a reputation point that always goes up based on how long you have played, (perhaps it goes up every 5th time one of the other factions gets modified) The higher this reputation (call it noteriety or fame) is, the more items you can get from your other reputation points. for instance if you are well known in general (you have a high fame) but only slightly well known to the mercenaries, they will still give you a better selection than someone with the same mercenary rep without as much fame. However, no matter what your fame, certain things will only be availible with a high reputation in a specific category.
I agree that there needs to be an XP based skill system for skills as discussed earlier in this thread, but equipment can and should be primarily limited by reputation.
EDIT:> I also forsee that all equipment will be availible from at least 4 factions, so you have a choice of which faction to try to get it from.
I think you have somewhat missed the concept here. The idea isn't that you "join" a faction to try to increase your reputation with them. the reputation is a totally automatic series of ups & downs based on what you do. It's sort of an indicator of how the NPC shopkeepers feel about you.
If you go to a merchant in sector 79(the sector is in a state of anarchy and a known pirate base) who has strong ties to the pirates, and you have been pirating lately, he's heard about it from his other customers and is willing to deal with you on more favorable terms. on the other hand if you have been bounty hunting, he's heard that instead and he isn't willing to do buisness with you beyond some very basic items.
By the same token completing missions for the governments will boost the amount of trust they are willing to place in you when you visit a sector that is sympathetic to them or under their direct rule.
Finally I envision a reputation point that always goes up based on how long you have played, (perhaps it goes up every 5th time one of the other factions gets modified) The higher this reputation (call it noteriety or fame) is, the more items you can get from your other reputation points. for instance if you are well known in general (you have a high fame) but only slightly well known to the mercenaries, they will still give you a better selection than someone with the same mercenary rep without as much fame. However, no matter what your fame, certain things will only be availible with a high reputation in a specific category.
I agree that there needs to be an XP based skill system for skills as discussed earlier in this thread, but equipment can and should be primarily limited by reputation.
EDIT:> I also forsee that all equipment will be availible from at least 4 factions, so you have a choice of which faction to try to get it from.
look what the cat dragged in!
i want more RPG elements!
i want more RPG elements!
Whee, another thread resurrected from the dead.
First off, let me go into RPG versus RPG: Most of the so called RPGs you see on the net are based on a very Gygaxian outlook - stats being the important factor, grouping together people with stats to cover up their individual shortcomings being the way to get anywhere. Gygax himself actually referred to the roleplaying idea (as in, playing the character as opposed to controlling the character) as detrimental to the game. The role playing part drowns in a flurry of Sword of +4 Cheesiness and leveling.
Hence, my outlook is that roleplaying is easier the closer to a non-game you get. Simply put, less numbers, more immersion. I'd love to discuss this with anyone who feel so inclined, but suggest IRC rather than the boards for that..
The thing that I think is charming with Vendetta is the fact that it has the potential of a good RPG *because* it doesn't have detailed stats. Because it doesn't have levels that mean a lot (arguably license levels are levels, but they don't affect anything except for the equipment choices), because it's skill based rather than virtual dice based. It allows for a world where, given the proper surroundings, you actually have a chance be a character, if you feel inclined. Where progress is based on action and interaction rather than numbers. Where new skilled players have a chance of catching up with the oldtimers based on skill, not how many hours they've played.
I agree that experience should be an important part of any game involving two or more players. The difference is that I feel that it should *be* experience, not +12 on your virtual dice rolls to represent it.
First off, let me go into RPG versus RPG: Most of the so called RPGs you see on the net are based on a very Gygaxian outlook - stats being the important factor, grouping together people with stats to cover up their individual shortcomings being the way to get anywhere. Gygax himself actually referred to the roleplaying idea (as in, playing the character as opposed to controlling the character) as detrimental to the game. The role playing part drowns in a flurry of Sword of +4 Cheesiness and leveling.
Hence, my outlook is that roleplaying is easier the closer to a non-game you get. Simply put, less numbers, more immersion. I'd love to discuss this with anyone who feel so inclined, but suggest IRC rather than the boards for that..
The thing that I think is charming with Vendetta is the fact that it has the potential of a good RPG *because* it doesn't have detailed stats. Because it doesn't have levels that mean a lot (arguably license levels are levels, but they don't affect anything except for the equipment choices), because it's skill based rather than virtual dice based. It allows for a world where, given the proper surroundings, you actually have a chance be a character, if you feel inclined. Where progress is based on action and interaction rather than numbers. Where new skilled players have a chance of catching up with the oldtimers based on skill, not how many hours they've played.
I agree that experience should be an important part of any game involving two or more players. The difference is that I feel that it should *be* experience, not +12 on your virtual dice rolls to represent it.
i didn't resurrect it because I want stat dice battles, i brought it up because there would be more things to do, like crafting and so on. you know, alternative ways of playing?