Forums » Suggestions
A reasonable compromise to help mitigate the "overloading" of capships
I threw this against the wall in chat, and it seemed to stick, so I though I should take the time to share the idea here...
[The Problem]
Let's begin this discussion by defining the problem...
Currently, the *perceived* problem is that capships have been given a specific amount of cargo space, yet players can stuff in more cargo than intended by "exploiting" the fact that capship owners can _always_ dock, regardless of the amount of space left in the ship. Since this doesn't really require any cryptic information or lua scripting, and isn't really taking advantage of a "bug", per se, I don't really see it as an "exploit", but rather, a system of management that is just missing a few pieces. As I suggested, this is a problem of *perception*-- when one can push a certain metric beyond its intended boundaries, it seems as if the laws of virtual physics are being broken in this, our digital universe. Rather than calling foul on cappie pilots for simply making do with what they have been provided, why not provide them with realistic boundaries that work, while at the same time, let them continue to operate at the pace at which they have come to expect.
[The (possible) Solution]
As it stands, goli captains can carry 4 ships instead of 3 and 800cu of cargo instead of 600cu, while trident captains can carry 6 ships instead 4-5 and 1200cu of cargo instead of 800. I want to clearly talk about these values because this is what capship pilots have been hauling and this is what they would want to continue to haul, as far as cargo is concerned. As far as the number of ships is concerned, this is where the compromise would be made, because the problem here centers around the amount of ships, how they are stored/managed, and that they are considered "cargo" in the first place. There's an obvious conflict here, but I'm not going to make suppositions or request explanations as to how or why it exists because i think exploring and unpacking the history of a problem detracts from clearly moving forward towards a solution...and I think the solution here is: add a set number of *docking berths* to the "Hangar" and reduce the amount of space in the "Cargo Hold" of the ship.
By clearly defining the amount of smaller ships each vessel can carry, you eliminate the question as to whether or not someone is breaking a rule (by simply removing any question about the rule) and bring the entire scope of the problem within the realm of explainable physics. Each ship would be able to dock "x" amount of ships and carry "x" amount of cargo, period. I would propose that the Goli would have 3 docking berths and 200cu of cargo space while the Type M would have 5 docking berths and 200cu of cargo space as well. Now, right there, there should be no complaints about the seemingly small cargo space for a capital class vessel, because the amount of possible cargo that can be carried in docked freighters *is taken into account*. Both ships would still be able to carry as much cargo as has been actually flying around, but maximizing that cargo level would still depend upon what ships are chosen, but the number of ships and how they are managed would not only be more realistic, but would also add a whole new game-play dynamic to the aspect of being a capship owner. As I mentioned before, we don't need to unpack the problem, but we do need to unpack this solution, so let me mince out the details of each factor a little further...
[Docking Berths]
The ability for a capship owner to always be able to dock to their own ship is an obvious necessity, but that unbridled need was the true root of the problem and added another element to the perceived "exploit" by allowing an already overloaded ship to further stuff itself with yet another player and their ship if the owner launches and let's them do so. A specific amount of berths would force captains to plan ahead before leaving a capital station if they want to pick up gunners en route or be able to provide docking space for reps and repairs without having to launch and make room for another ship to dock. Now, the ability for the captain to always dock would still apply, but if the owner returns to their ship and there are no vacant berths, the visiting ship(s) would be ejected, either by the owner's direct choice or a set parameter.
[The Cargo Hold]
Ok, here's what could be the stickiest point about this part: add the ability to transfer cargo from a docked ship to the cargo hold of the cappie, and vice versa, but either make the transfer of goods only one way for visiting ships, make the entire process controlled only by the owner, or provide cargo transfer privilege options during the key assignment process. This seems like a more realistic factor that has been missing within the capital ship dynamic, and would provide a new level of security in the transfer of goods between players. Capship owners would still be able to place a smaller class ship in the cargo hold, but they would not be able to board it and launch it.
Now, I realize that any conceptualization of an idea is far easier than its implementation, and I've been involved with enough large projects to know that there has to be a certain amount of eye-rolling and forehead-grasping while reading this as one thinks of the back-end of such an idea or the unseen ramifications it may have upon game-play, but I can only say that I'm doing my best to have a productive conversation about the *possibility* of this solution without couching with complaints, unrealistic expectations, or an ignorance as to how much goes into making the real changes to implement what might be perceived as "simple" solution. I truly appreciate all that the devs have done so far, what they are continuing to manage, and what they are striving to accomplish, because I simply love this game.
Like i said, this is a discussion... let's have it. :)
[The Problem]
Let's begin this discussion by defining the problem...
Currently, the *perceived* problem is that capships have been given a specific amount of cargo space, yet players can stuff in more cargo than intended by "exploiting" the fact that capship owners can _always_ dock, regardless of the amount of space left in the ship. Since this doesn't really require any cryptic information or lua scripting, and isn't really taking advantage of a "bug", per se, I don't really see it as an "exploit", but rather, a system of management that is just missing a few pieces. As I suggested, this is a problem of *perception*-- when one can push a certain metric beyond its intended boundaries, it seems as if the laws of virtual physics are being broken in this, our digital universe. Rather than calling foul on cappie pilots for simply making do with what they have been provided, why not provide them with realistic boundaries that work, while at the same time, let them continue to operate at the pace at which they have come to expect.
[The (possible) Solution]
As it stands, goli captains can carry 4 ships instead of 3 and 800cu of cargo instead of 600cu, while trident captains can carry 6 ships instead 4-5 and 1200cu of cargo instead of 800. I want to clearly talk about these values because this is what capship pilots have been hauling and this is what they would want to continue to haul, as far as cargo is concerned. As far as the number of ships is concerned, this is where the compromise would be made, because the problem here centers around the amount of ships, how they are stored/managed, and that they are considered "cargo" in the first place. There's an obvious conflict here, but I'm not going to make suppositions or request explanations as to how or why it exists because i think exploring and unpacking the history of a problem detracts from clearly moving forward towards a solution...and I think the solution here is: add a set number of *docking berths* to the "Hangar" and reduce the amount of space in the "Cargo Hold" of the ship.
By clearly defining the amount of smaller ships each vessel can carry, you eliminate the question as to whether or not someone is breaking a rule (by simply removing any question about the rule) and bring the entire scope of the problem within the realm of explainable physics. Each ship would be able to dock "x" amount of ships and carry "x" amount of cargo, period. I would propose that the Goli would have 3 docking berths and 200cu of cargo space while the Type M would have 5 docking berths and 200cu of cargo space as well. Now, right there, there should be no complaints about the seemingly small cargo space for a capital class vessel, because the amount of possible cargo that can be carried in docked freighters *is taken into account*. Both ships would still be able to carry as much cargo as has been actually flying around, but maximizing that cargo level would still depend upon what ships are chosen, but the number of ships and how they are managed would not only be more realistic, but would also add a whole new game-play dynamic to the aspect of being a capship owner. As I mentioned before, we don't need to unpack the problem, but we do need to unpack this solution, so let me mince out the details of each factor a little further...
[Docking Berths]
The ability for a capship owner to always be able to dock to their own ship is an obvious necessity, but that unbridled need was the true root of the problem and added another element to the perceived "exploit" by allowing an already overloaded ship to further stuff itself with yet another player and their ship if the owner launches and let's them do so. A specific amount of berths would force captains to plan ahead before leaving a capital station if they want to pick up gunners en route or be able to provide docking space for reps and repairs without having to launch and make room for another ship to dock. Now, the ability for the captain to always dock would still apply, but if the owner returns to their ship and there are no vacant berths, the visiting ship(s) would be ejected, either by the owner's direct choice or a set parameter.
[The Cargo Hold]
Ok, here's what could be the stickiest point about this part: add the ability to transfer cargo from a docked ship to the cargo hold of the cappie, and vice versa, but either make the transfer of goods only one way for visiting ships, make the entire process controlled only by the owner, or provide cargo transfer privilege options during the key assignment process. This seems like a more realistic factor that has been missing within the capital ship dynamic, and would provide a new level of security in the transfer of goods between players. Capship owners would still be able to place a smaller class ship in the cargo hold, but they would not be able to board it and launch it.
Now, I realize that any conceptualization of an idea is far easier than its implementation, and I've been involved with enough large projects to know that there has to be a certain amount of eye-rolling and forehead-grasping while reading this as one thinks of the back-end of such an idea or the unseen ramifications it may have upon game-play, but I can only say that I'm doing my best to have a productive conversation about the *possibility* of this solution without couching with complaints, unrealistic expectations, or an ignorance as to how much goes into making the real changes to implement what might be perceived as "simple" solution. I truly appreciate all that the devs have done so far, what they are continuing to manage, and what they are striving to accomplish, because I simply love this game.
Like i said, this is a discussion... let's have it. :)
Okay, well to slap this entire thing on the ground capships are supposed to be getting a cargo expansion to fix that soon anyway lol
How does that solve the problem of overloading? It would seem to only exacerbate the issue by merely providing more space to do so. The problem is the amount of ships, not the amount of cargo.
Why don't we just add a feature that allows the Capship owner to remotely choose to Jettison ships or other Cargo, until they can dock?
Then we can just get rid of the magical docking ability.
That's long been the plan on my side. Just not really a top development priority.
Then we can just get rid of the magical docking ability.
That's long been the plan on my side. Just not really a top development priority.
I don’t honestly see this as a big enough issue to detract from current important development
The goli should have a separate 400 cu cargo hold and 4 ship docks.
Docks each hold one ship and each ship holds its own cargo.
Either the dock can berth an XC or it cant. The amount of cargo it is carrying is irrelevant.
Thats actually how things work in the real world.
Ship docks should each have a max capacity per dock in CU's so if a dock can only handle 150 cus and a XC takes 200 then it cant dock.
Why make the issue so complicated?
Docks each hold one ship and each ship holds its own cargo.
Either the dock can berth an XC or it cant. The amount of cargo it is carrying is irrelevant.
Thats actually how things work in the real world.
Ship docks should each have a max capacity per dock in CU's so if a dock can only handle 150 cus and a XC takes 200 then it cant dock.
Why make the issue so complicated?
Adding the concept of "docks" is complication, I see no reason to do that.
Basically a hangar bay is like a "garage": if you want to pack it full of bicycles and weird crap, and also your car, which has barely fits in there, and also has a bunch of stuff in the trunk and the back seat, that's fine by me..
..As long as it all adheres to reasonable physical laws, which it will as soon as we no longer need to allow the owner to "always" dock (and have remote-jettison). Then we can fix the required storage volume of all dockable ships to be greater than their respective internal cargo space, and life goes on.
This is not new commentary from me, I've said this all before. Yeah, we should add the whole remote-jettison thing, but the relatively minor cargo "exploit" hasn't been worth the dev-time on remote-jettison.
Basically a hangar bay is like a "garage": if you want to pack it full of bicycles and weird crap, and also your car, which has barely fits in there, and also has a bunch of stuff in the trunk and the back seat, that's fine by me..
..As long as it all adheres to reasonable physical laws, which it will as soon as we no longer need to allow the owner to "always" dock (and have remote-jettison). Then we can fix the required storage volume of all dockable ships to be greater than their respective internal cargo space, and life goes on.
This is not new commentary from me, I've said this all before. Yeah, we should add the whole remote-jettison thing, but the relatively minor cargo "exploit" hasn't been worth the dev-time on remote-jettison.
the remote jettison idea sounds great
+1
+1
okay, well, then if it's not that big of a deal...carry on ;)
...remote jettison sounds kinda messy
...i would like to see the ability to transfer cargo from a docked ship to the capship's cargo space though
...remote jettison sounds kinda messy
...i would like to see the ability to transfer cargo from a docked ship to the capship's cargo space though
remote jettison sounds like a good compromise, but I agree with Inc that I feel the "exploit" is not so game-breaking as to require immediate attention.