Forums » Suggestions
New Vote Mute command
I'd like to propose that a new vote mute command be introduced that only covers 100 chat.
The reason for this is that players go on wierd rants about everything from white supremacy to racist slurs, other things that are not appropriate for the game, and we have vote mute for this, but the current arrangement leaves the muted player completely unable to act within the game, and whilst i am all for the muting of public chat from a player acting this way, there are good reasons why the mute should be limited to 100 only.
As a specific example, i shall point out that recently blaqk and piment have been muted multiple times, and the result in this case is that sc are unable to effectively operate and now face guild dissolution.
If the mute was possible for only 100 chat, then the result would be effective to curb this public side of their chat, but still leave players in a position of authority with the ability to continue managing that authority effectively.
It quite upsets me sometimes the things people talk about on main chat, not the insults or the vo related stuff, but those times when people bring in real life issues and take it to extremes.
Lets say a new command, working as follows.
/vote mute "Nyscersul" 100
This would, upon first successful vote, initiate a 24hour mute on this player's account but only for 100 chat, if the same player were voted again within 1 week, receiving a second ban in this time, it would automatically increase to a week. Maybe, if a second week is achieved inside of a month, the next vote would result in a month's ban.
Whilst there are topics that are inappropriate for public chat, and that sway the mood of the entire game whilst that chat continues, we do live in a society that promotes free speech, and for this reason, i suggest this public-only mute.
The reason for this is that players go on wierd rants about everything from white supremacy to racist slurs, other things that are not appropriate for the game, and we have vote mute for this, but the current arrangement leaves the muted player completely unable to act within the game, and whilst i am all for the muting of public chat from a player acting this way, there are good reasons why the mute should be limited to 100 only.
As a specific example, i shall point out that recently blaqk and piment have been muted multiple times, and the result in this case is that sc are unable to effectively operate and now face guild dissolution.
If the mute was possible for only 100 chat, then the result would be effective to curb this public side of their chat, but still leave players in a position of authority with the ability to continue managing that authority effectively.
It quite upsets me sometimes the things people talk about on main chat, not the insults or the vo related stuff, but those times when people bring in real life issues and take it to extremes.
Lets say a new command, working as follows.
/vote mute "Nyscersul" 100
This would, upon first successful vote, initiate a 24hour mute on this player's account but only for 100 chat, if the same player were voted again within 1 week, receiving a second ban in this time, it would automatically increase to a week. Maybe, if a second week is achieved inside of a month, the next vote would result in a month's ban.
Whilst there are topics that are inappropriate for public chat, and that sway the mood of the entire game whilst that chat continues, we do live in a society that promotes free speech, and for this reason, i suggest this public-only mute.
To me, the basis of your suggestion seems to be that players that aren't actually violating the rules of the game chat are being hurt in some way by their association with players that do violate the rules. (Let me know if I misunderstood.)
If you read the "benice" post, you might notice a trend: the goal of moderation is to make the problem players feel unwelcome in the game. It's a pretty good way to shape your community: take the people you don't want to be part of it and get them to leave or change their behavior by linking the bad actions to unpleasant consequences.
It's also how communities can shape themselves: certain players can be made to feel unwelcome. Either by allowing racist garbage in chat or by speaking out against the racist garbage (with a mute vote maybe.)
I agree that it does not feel fair for players to be hurt by the consequences for the actions of those they've chosen to associate with. I disagree with the suggestion that it is the consequences themselves or the developers that are being unfair, rather than the person that has been muted.
If you read the "benice" post, you might notice a trend: the goal of moderation is to make the problem players feel unwelcome in the game. It's a pretty good way to shape your community: take the people you don't want to be part of it and get them to leave or change their behavior by linking the bad actions to unpleasant consequences.
It's also how communities can shape themselves: certain players can be made to feel unwelcome. Either by allowing racist garbage in chat or by speaking out against the racist garbage (with a mute vote maybe.)
I agree that it does not feel fair for players to be hurt by the consequences for the actions of those they've chosen to associate with. I disagree with the suggestion that it is the consequences themselves or the developers that are being unfair, rather than the person that has been muted.
In this case it doesn't really hurt those not partaking in mutable offences, and I do have to agree with Genka, /vote mute is effective in teaching people that there are in fact consequences for your actions, even in an online game like VO. Though I don't disagree with there being a channel specific option. It could function as a community "warning shot" towards the player offending.
-1, at least as a public vote tool. I don't care if guides are given per-channel muting powers, if they don't already have them, but it's not something we players need. Giving us multiple muting options will just fragment things and sow confusion among those less competent at remembering and using commands.
As with genka, I do not give any fucks whatsoever if legitimate mutes make it difficult for people to play the game. Don't like it? Don't bring your real-life bigotry into the game, and don't associate with those who do.
If you're instead looking for a softer mute you can use against non-hateful stuff that's just way off topic, my response is: grow a pair, use /ignore, /leave 100, or say something game-related that is interesting enough that it dominates the discussion. People go off topic because they're bored. The solution is to be interesting.
I do agree with concern that vote mute can be abused to disrupt guild activity if one is not afraid (or too stupid to be aware) of the unstated consequences for doing so. I would support restricting vote mute so that it doesn't apply to guild and group chat in order to minimize that concern. That doesn't quite seem to be your concern, however. There's also the very real possibility that abuse happens so rarely compared to legitimate mutes that the added ostracization factor is worth the small amount of harm during a false positive. If the devs think that the status quo is fine, I trust them to know what they're talking about. They have the actual numbers, and I do not.
As with genka, I do not give any fucks whatsoever if legitimate mutes make it difficult for people to play the game. Don't like it? Don't bring your real-life bigotry into the game, and don't associate with those who do.
If you're instead looking for a softer mute you can use against non-hateful stuff that's just way off topic, my response is: grow a pair, use /ignore, /leave 100, or say something game-related that is interesting enough that it dominates the discussion. People go off topic because they're bored. The solution is to be interesting.
I do agree with concern that vote mute can be abused to disrupt guild activity if one is not afraid (or too stupid to be aware) of the unstated consequences for doing so. I would support restricting vote mute so that it doesn't apply to guild and group chat in order to minimize that concern. That doesn't quite seem to be your concern, however. There's also the very real possibility that abuse happens so rarely compared to legitimate mutes that the added ostracization factor is worth the small amount of harm during a false positive. If the devs think that the status quo is fine, I trust them to know what they're talking about. They have the actual numbers, and I do not.
-1 indeed
Guides can "chat jail", which locks the user into a particular channel of the guide's choosing for a short time. The user is free to /msg friends to join to the channel if they like. I tend to use this as a "cooling off" area where I can talk to someone for a minute (without all of 100 chiming in to fan the flames) and then release them if they seem reasonable. Some people just don't get /msg-ing so this is a good alternative.
Probably about 20% of those have to show me that I'm "not the boss of them" and transgress immediately after being freed.
Then I mute them.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Probably about 20% of those have to show me that I'm "not the boss of them" and transgress immediately after being freed.
Then I mute them.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
I used to be against the idea of allowing limited forms of communication during a vote mute, but I feel inclined to modify my opinion given how much the tool has been misused. I've witnessed firsthand people being muted for no RoC violation whatsoever. Those times the vote mute has been used abusively and punitively because the mutee is simply disliked, or the topic of conversation (usually political) is disliked (but by no means a RoC violation).
Incarnate has admitted that this game is essentially a graphical chatroom, so muting people for simply chatting seems abusive when /ignore and /leave are also available. In other words, denying people the ability to communicate is denying them access to a primary function of the game -- and should only be done for justifiable purposes, even if it's only for 30 minutes (which could feel like a lifetime under certain dire circumstances).
The problem seems to be (given how often the abuse occurs) is that there are little to no effective repercussions for abusing /vote mute. The takeaway would seem to be that incarnate deems the consequences of a few people being regularly and unjustifiably muted outweighs the consequences of a mute tool that is more difficult to wield. I can see how that might make sense, since from his perspective development time is of the highest value -- and the least amount spent on "silly" player drama is the best amount.
My argument, however, is that those being muted regularly and abusively are large contributors to game activity (which everyone agrees has been at an ever growing all time low), and their forced absence (by a regular, publicly admitting cadre of /vote muters) is basically the dev-sanctioned ostricisation of one Tribe by another.
Accountability shouldn't only be demanded of those being muted, but also those doing the muting.
Incarnate has admitted that this game is essentially a graphical chatroom, so muting people for simply chatting seems abusive when /ignore and /leave are also available. In other words, denying people the ability to communicate is denying them access to a primary function of the game -- and should only be done for justifiable purposes, even if it's only for 30 minutes (which could feel like a lifetime under certain dire circumstances).
The problem seems to be (given how often the abuse occurs) is that there are little to no effective repercussions for abusing /vote mute. The takeaway would seem to be that incarnate deems the consequences of a few people being regularly and unjustifiably muted outweighs the consequences of a mute tool that is more difficult to wield. I can see how that might make sense, since from his perspective development time is of the highest value -- and the least amount spent on "silly" player drama is the best amount.
My argument, however, is that those being muted regularly and abusively are large contributors to game activity (which everyone agrees has been at an ever growing all time low), and their forced absence (by a regular, publicly admitting cadre of /vote muters) is basically the dev-sanctioned ostricisation of one Tribe by another.
Accountability shouldn't only be demanded of those being muted, but also those doing the muting.
-1
Keep it as is. It's only 30 minutes and it gives ample time for people to cool down. A break is healthy for some people. And it has the added benefit of allowing the society (the VO community active at the moment) to police it's own since it can establish norms offense.
Abuses of the /vote mute are very easily submitted as a ticket and easily dealt with by Devs.
The people who really don't like the current system are the offenders. They're a minority, but clearly a very vocal one... hence their /vote mutes.
Keep it as is. It's only 30 minutes and it gives ample time for people to cool down. A break is healthy for some people. And it has the added benefit of allowing the society (the VO community active at the moment) to police it's own since it can establish norms offense.
Abuses of the /vote mute are very easily submitted as a ticket and easily dealt with by Devs.
The people who really don't like the current system are the offenders. They're a minority, but clearly a very vocal one... hence their /vote mutes.
Greenwall wrote: Concern:
My argument, however, is that those being muted regularly and abusively are large contributors to game activity (which everyone agrees has been at an ever growing all time low), and their forced absence (by a regular, publicly admitting cadre of /vote muters) is basically the dev-sanctioned ostricisation of one Tribe by another.
SkinWalker wrote: Answer:
Abuses of the /vote mute are very easily submitted as a ticket and easily dealt with by Devs.
My argument, however, is that those being muted regularly and abusively are large contributors to game activity (which everyone agrees has been at an ever growing all time low), and their forced absence (by a regular, publicly admitting cadre of /vote muters) is basically the dev-sanctioned ostricisation of one Tribe by another.
SkinWalker wrote: Answer:
Abuses of the /vote mute are very easily submitted as a ticket and easily dealt with by Devs.
Greenwall wroe:
My argument, however, is that
1) those being muted regularly and abusively are large contributors to game activity
I don't think that's true.
2) (which everyone agrees has been at an ever growing all time low),
This is obviously not true.
3) and their forced absence (by a regular, publicly admitting cadre of /vote muters) is basically the dev-sanctioned ostricisation of one Tribe by another.
Yes, this is true! Congrats! You have figured out how community management works! Turns out, in order to prevent vocal racists from shouting down everyone else you gotta make them feel unwelcome!
My argument, however, is that
1) those being muted regularly and abusively are large contributors to game activity
I don't think that's true.
2) (which everyone agrees has been at an ever growing all time low),
This is obviously not true.
3) and their forced absence (by a regular, publicly admitting cadre of /vote muters) is basically the dev-sanctioned ostricisation of one Tribe by another.
Yes, this is true! Congrats! You have figured out how community management works! Turns out, in order to prevent vocal racists from shouting down everyone else you gotta make them feel unwelcome!
I've witnessed the muting occurring during conversations completely absent racist content on more than several occasions. There is no denying that it is being used to silence enemies. You may not like what someone has said in the past, or done in the past, but that doesn't justify muting them because you don't like when they are chatting generally.
Genka if you don't think activity is at an all time low you simply haven't been playing.
Genka if you don't think activity is at an all time low you simply haven't been playing.
Greenwall have you been playing? Because I have regularly, and it is not at an all time low lol. It's not the highest it's ever been, but if anything it has been getting steadily more active, at least since I've gotten back.
played on and off for a couple months, each time I've logged in it's been pretty damn dead. Bad luck then?
Beep boop beep beeep I have calculated that the perfect human is a deterministic lambda function: every input must be evaluated without context and a reply must be formed in accordance to a Markov chain.
Boop beep bloop, this is the morally optimal way to respond to racist individuals. Tying utterances to past actions is the equivalent of INTERNET BULLYING.
Beep boop
Boop beep bloop, this is the morally optimal way to respond to racist individuals. Tying utterances to past actions is the equivalent of INTERNET BULLYING.
Beep boop
The main problems with vote mute:
One sided vote, with little to no reprieve. You can vote to mute someone, but you can not vote against muting someone, nor can you mitigate or limit the effects of the muting.
Muting can interfere with game play. If there was an optional way to voluntarily still communicate with a muted person that is actually trying to play, then vote mute would be mostly inconsequential, to those actually playing the game. I believe I used /buddy note in the past to continue game play in concert with others.
And the main thing that is correct about /vote mute: You can still play the game.
I would be surprised if anyone here has be vote muted as many times as me. I either logged out, or I just continue to play while muted. I have even pretended to be muted just to practice not running my mouth and spamming 100 with nonsense.
Crying about being vote muted is embarrassing. Are you so absolutely dependent on being heard on the INTERNET that your sudden lack of voice has destroyed your whole point in existing? I am crying about you crying for your not being able to cry publicly enough. Please have enough dignity to be ashamed.
Shut up and shoot someone.
One sided vote, with little to no reprieve. You can vote to mute someone, but you can not vote against muting someone, nor can you mitigate or limit the effects of the muting.
Muting can interfere with game play. If there was an optional way to voluntarily still communicate with a muted person that is actually trying to play, then vote mute would be mostly inconsequential, to those actually playing the game. I believe I used /buddy note in the past to continue game play in concert with others.
And the main thing that is correct about /vote mute: You can still play the game.
I would be surprised if anyone here has be vote muted as many times as me. I either logged out, or I just continue to play while muted. I have even pretended to be muted just to practice not running my mouth and spamming 100 with nonsense.
Crying about being vote muted is embarrassing. Are you so absolutely dependent on being heard on the INTERNET that your sudden lack of voice has destroyed your whole point in existing? I am crying about you crying for your not being able to cry publicly enough. Please have enough dignity to be ashamed.
Shut up and shoot someone.
We do have longstanding plans to improve these mechanics, but not in the way that has been suggested here. For now, do this:
Abuses of the /vote mute are very easily submitted as a ticket and easily dealt with by Devs.
At the moment, there seems to be a bit of an issue of under-reporting mute abuse, as people assume there is no repercussion, and/or just kind of shrug it off. That ends up being a self-fulfilling prophecy.
Abuses of the /vote mute are very easily submitted as a ticket and easily dealt with by Devs.
At the moment, there seems to be a bit of an issue of under-reporting mute abuse, as people assume there is no repercussion, and/or just kind of shrug it off. That ends up being a self-fulfilling prophecy.
I'm very pleased to see this community discussion of self management. That's a very healthy sign.
Post Theme Music : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tdd2cF8UgfQ
Lets be honest here, none of you give a flyin fuck and participate in the abuse(Except you Rin/Greenwall), and then hide behind false moral highgrounds. It goes beyond just people using vote mute to silence people they don't like, the application of RoC/ToS/EULA has been infected as well. People can wish my death, threaten me in real life, harass me, lie about me, call me racial and other slurs with impunity because "Eh you're a dick so it's okay when they do it" but god forbid someone shine some light on that disgusting double standard.
The canned response of "We'll look into it" doesn't cut it.
I don't want or need you to advocate on my behalf on an issue your directly a result of, from player abuse to developer/administrator inaction. This shit has been going on well before Trump became president or my cancer diagnosis. Guild Software will still be funded, regardless if people subscribe or not. Don't cry that your beloved game has one of the worst player retention/activity rates, and that the few players that do stick around get targeted for things that don't relate to the game. If internet words mean so little your kneejerk reactions to silence anything that stands to actually progress the game outside of the selfish interests of a few at the top must be pretty embarrassing. I guess the natural reaction to inferiority is collectivizing any and all possible routes of power.
Enjoy your virtual utopia, I'm sure it will go as well as it has everywhere else authoritarian centralism has been practiced.
There is no freedom of speech here, there is no freedom of association here and as a result truth, the freedom to play, and the eventual opportunity for growth and progress individuals seek has been stolen from all.
The only reason I am who I am is because I am one of the few who does have more mutes than Roda, because I refuse to go along with this sharade of dismissing reality to "be nice" and sacrifice the future for instant gratification.
Lets be honest here, none of you give a flyin fuck and participate in the abuse(Except you Rin/Greenwall), and then hide behind false moral highgrounds. It goes beyond just people using vote mute to silence people they don't like, the application of RoC/ToS/EULA has been infected as well. People can wish my death, threaten me in real life, harass me, lie about me, call me racial and other slurs with impunity because "Eh you're a dick so it's okay when they do it" but god forbid someone shine some light on that disgusting double standard.
The canned response of "We'll look into it" doesn't cut it.
I don't want or need you to advocate on my behalf on an issue your directly a result of, from player abuse to developer/administrator inaction. This shit has been going on well before Trump became president or my cancer diagnosis. Guild Software will still be funded, regardless if people subscribe or not. Don't cry that your beloved game has one of the worst player retention/activity rates, and that the few players that do stick around get targeted for things that don't relate to the game. If internet words mean so little your kneejerk reactions to silence anything that stands to actually progress the game outside of the selfish interests of a few at the top must be pretty embarrassing. I guess the natural reaction to inferiority is collectivizing any and all possible routes of power.
Enjoy your virtual utopia, I'm sure it will go as well as it has everywhere else authoritarian centralism has been practiced.
There is no freedom of speech here, there is no freedom of association here and as a result truth, the freedom to play, and the eventual opportunity for growth and progress individuals seek has been stolen from all.
The only reason I am who I am is because I am one of the few who does have more mutes than Roda, because I refuse to go along with this sharade of dismissing reality to "be nice" and sacrifice the future for instant gratification.
Jesus. Yeah, that doesn't make you look crazy at all.
It's super rewarding to actually spend a bunch of time taking action on behalf of someone, and then have them turn around and blast you for not doing anything.
Anyway, I think we can do without your contributions here on Suggestions. Since, as you noted, there's no free speech here. Like.. every privately developed and maintained product, ever.
Back to the topic at Hand: The policy is to report abuse of vote muting, and let us handle it. We've recently added administrative features specifically to enhance our ability to respond to these kinds of issues.
It's super rewarding to actually spend a bunch of time taking action on behalf of someone, and then have them turn around and blast you for not doing anything.
Anyway, I think we can do without your contributions here on Suggestions. Since, as you noted, there's no free speech here. Like.. every privately developed and maintained product, ever.
Back to the topic at Hand: The policy is to report abuse of vote muting, and let us handle it. We've recently added administrative features specifically to enhance our ability to respond to these kinds of issues.