Forums » Suggestions
Currently it is a pain in the butt to trade large amounts of stuff. You have to undock, jettison/scoop, and dock over and over and over. It's somewhat risky, which is good, but it's really stupid.
Doing bulk trades inside the station is the obvious solution to the stupidity, but then you lose some of the risk. You still have to haul the items to and from the station, so you don't lose all the risk, but since you're not spending large amounts of time faffing about outside flaunting the items you're exchanging, some risk is definitely lost. While suboptimal, I think it's an acceptable trade-off. Not everybody agrees.
So, I propose we solve this by making indoor trading risky. Set a timer after both sides agree on their trade, during which time the station provides a subtle video and audio indication that goods are being transferred (e.g. indicator lights on the station's side and a humming sound). If somebody physically shoots the station and causes enough damage during this period, cargo begins spilling from the station. This should take a significant amount of damage and should result in being dropped to KOS with the faction. (There could be an escalation, with small amounts of damage being forgive with a warning, larger amounts coming with Temp-KOS, and the full KOS only happening if you make the station actually start leaking cargo.)
The indication that a trade is underway should not be a chat message or anything else detectable with Lua. The disrupting player should have to notice it himself, not just park a bot there to automatically ping him any time somebody initiates a trade.
The actual cargo leak should start with an initial burst of dropped cargo when the damage threshold is first crossed, followed by a flow of cargo proportional to how far beyond the damage threshold the station currently is. The station would heal on its own over time, causing the flow of cargo to reduce, and shooting it with a repair gun would help it along. When it repairs to above the cargo leak threshold, the leak would cut off. Damaging it to below the threshold again would resume the leak, but without that initial burst (the burst would only reset when the station is fully healed). The cargo leak would also stop if the station leaked all the cargo being traded, of course. (Station inventories are not affected by this suggestion.)
To discourage people from trading items for cash and then trying to steal them back from the station itself before the trade completes, any credits traded are reduced before delivery proportionately to any cargo spilled. That is to say, if you use in-station trade to sell a bunch of ore to a trader, then hire your pirate friend to steal the ore back from the station before the goods and money are released, the station will not pay you the money it took from the trader. Nor will it refund that money to the trader. It's just gone. (Confiscated to pay for damages, if you need an RP excuse.)
In addition to the goods being traded, the trading pair should also have to negotiate who pays the station's transaction fee, which is assessed based on the total mass, volume, and value of the goods (and credits) being traded. The default would be for both parties to split the fee 50-50, but they could agree on a different mix if desired. Fees might also be influenced by faction standing, badges, station location, recent events (stations that get attacked a lot would charge more), legality of the goods being traded, etc. Trading of outright contraband would either not be allowed, or would be "allowed" but result in the total contents of the trade being confiscated and both parties being hit with faction penalties. A fixed overhead fee could also be assessed to discourage small trades, if desired.
The duration of the trade would similarly be influenced by the size of the trade, the standing of the participants, and the resources and security level of the local station. Small trades should take a couple minutes, while big trades could take dozens of minutes Participants are free to leave as soon as they finalize the trade; the goods will be put into their inventories and accounts when the timer finishes.
Not all stations necessarily need to offer this service, either. If you restrict it, you make trading locations more predictable. Or there could be limits to how big (or how little) of a trade a specific station is willing to facilitate.
A look at how a trade using this system could play out in practice:
Alice has 100,000 CU of MLP she wishes to get rid of. Bob has 300M credits that the Space IRS are eyeing greedily, which he'd like to convert into physical assets, preferably assets shaped like little ponies. Clearly a match made in the heavens. They both fly over to Remley Orbital, the nearest station willing to arbitrate a trade between the two.
Inside the station, they open the trade interface and put up what they're each willing to offer. The station also displays the holding period and the fee one or both will pay if the current transaction is accepted, with sliders for them to determine who will pay what portion of it (default is a 50-50 split). The TPG-owned station does not consider MLP to be anything special and does not bother with overhead fees, so they assess a total fee of 25M (100 credits / CU for the MLP + 5% of the 300M). Alice and Bob could split this evenly, but Alice thinks it's stupid for her to pay for getting paid, so she refuses. Bob doesn't think he should have to pay the full fee himself, so he rescinds his offer of 300M and instead submits a 287M offer. The station reevaluates their fee to 24.35M, and Bob commits to paying 100% of it. Alice isn't happy with this, but she takes the deal. Bob smirks; he just saved 1.15M.
When they accept the trade, the station takes Alice's 100,000 CU of MLP, and it takes 311.35M from Bob, then starts an 11 minute timer (10 minutes based on the total volume and mass of 100,000 CU of MLP, plus 60 seconds of overhead). Some caution lights on the station exterior begin glowing and a rumbling sound emits as the unseen forklifts inside spring into motion. Alice and Bob are free to leave; the station will transfer the MLP into Bob's station inventory and the 287M into Alice's account when the 11 minutes are up, whether they're present or not. Alice is so over MLP, so she heads off to Ukari to look into a rumor of a guy selling Pog. Bob doesn't have anything better to do and he's a little paranoid about his investment, so he hangs around the station.
Meanwhile, Rin is passing by in his Greyhound and notices from the lights that the station is conducting a bulk goods transfer. His grin intensifies and he comes back with a Ragnarock. By the time he runs out of rockets, the station is hemorrhaging MLP and Aerna. Rin proceeds to die, then wanders away in the direction of Odia.
Bob, meanwhile, is panicking. His poor MLP are drifting around out in the vacuum of space. Well, 80,000 CU of it is. Rin ran out of armor before he could dump all of it. Bob checks the trade status panel and it confirms that as things stand, neither the fee nor his 287M is being refunded, he's only going to receive 20,000 CU of MLP, and Alice will only receive 57.4M. Bob dashes into his hangar and grabs a Behemoth to start salvaging what he can of this fiasco.
Five minutes in, Bob has recovered about 30,000 CU of MLP. At this rate he'll scoop it all before it sublimates. Or he will if he isn't interrupted. Unfortunately, Eve jumps into the sector. Unlike Rin, she's managed to maintain a Respected standing with TPG. Seeing all the poor MLP drifting about in the cold vacuum of space, she decides to get out a Moth of her own and save the poor babies. Of the remaining 50,000 CU, Bob only recovers 24,985. Eve takes 24,997 CU herself and refuses to return them, stating that he is clearly not responsible enough to own MLP if he's going to be letting them get dumped into space all the time. Bob isn't sure what happened to the other 18 CU, but somewhere out there a newbie is complaining about her ship feeling more sluggish than it used to, ever since she visited Remley Orbital for repairs. She docks them two stars in her online review.
At the end of the 11 minutes, the station gives Bob the 20,000 CU it didn't lose, and it gives Alice 57.4M. They both receive an apology for the loss, along with a warning that for the danger they brought to the station, future trades made in the next week will come with an additional 1M fee. Alice is rather upset by this, and she gets downright pissed when she realizes that Bob managed to fly off with about 75% of the MLP even though she only got 20% of the credits. Bob mumbles something about this being why you should invest in physical assets and guard them yourself instead of trusting institutions, then makes himself scarce.
Somewhere in Odia, Eve gives Rin 5M and a Sedina Chocolate for the tip.
Doing bulk trades inside the station is the obvious solution to the stupidity, but then you lose some of the risk. You still have to haul the items to and from the station, so you don't lose all the risk, but since you're not spending large amounts of time faffing about outside flaunting the items you're exchanging, some risk is definitely lost. While suboptimal, I think it's an acceptable trade-off. Not everybody agrees.
So, I propose we solve this by making indoor trading risky. Set a timer after both sides agree on their trade, during which time the station provides a subtle video and audio indication that goods are being transferred (e.g. indicator lights on the station's side and a humming sound). If somebody physically shoots the station and causes enough damage during this period, cargo begins spilling from the station. This should take a significant amount of damage and should result in being dropped to KOS with the faction. (There could be an escalation, with small amounts of damage being forgive with a warning, larger amounts coming with Temp-KOS, and the full KOS only happening if you make the station actually start leaking cargo.)
The indication that a trade is underway should not be a chat message or anything else detectable with Lua. The disrupting player should have to notice it himself, not just park a bot there to automatically ping him any time somebody initiates a trade.
The actual cargo leak should start with an initial burst of dropped cargo when the damage threshold is first crossed, followed by a flow of cargo proportional to how far beyond the damage threshold the station currently is. The station would heal on its own over time, causing the flow of cargo to reduce, and shooting it with a repair gun would help it along. When it repairs to above the cargo leak threshold, the leak would cut off. Damaging it to below the threshold again would resume the leak, but without that initial burst (the burst would only reset when the station is fully healed). The cargo leak would also stop if the station leaked all the cargo being traded, of course. (Station inventories are not affected by this suggestion.)
To discourage people from trading items for cash and then trying to steal them back from the station itself before the trade completes, any credits traded are reduced before delivery proportionately to any cargo spilled. That is to say, if you use in-station trade to sell a bunch of ore to a trader, then hire your pirate friend to steal the ore back from the station before the goods and money are released, the station will not pay you the money it took from the trader. Nor will it refund that money to the trader. It's just gone. (Confiscated to pay for damages, if you need an RP excuse.)
In addition to the goods being traded, the trading pair should also have to negotiate who pays the station's transaction fee, which is assessed based on the total mass, volume, and value of the goods (and credits) being traded. The default would be for both parties to split the fee 50-50, but they could agree on a different mix if desired. Fees might also be influenced by faction standing, badges, station location, recent events (stations that get attacked a lot would charge more), legality of the goods being traded, etc. Trading of outright contraband would either not be allowed, or would be "allowed" but result in the total contents of the trade being confiscated and both parties being hit with faction penalties. A fixed overhead fee could also be assessed to discourage small trades, if desired.
The duration of the trade would similarly be influenced by the size of the trade, the standing of the participants, and the resources and security level of the local station. Small trades should take a couple minutes, while big trades could take dozens of minutes Participants are free to leave as soon as they finalize the trade; the goods will be put into their inventories and accounts when the timer finishes.
Not all stations necessarily need to offer this service, either. If you restrict it, you make trading locations more predictable. Or there could be limits to how big (or how little) of a trade a specific station is willing to facilitate.
A look at how a trade using this system could play out in practice:
Alice has 100,000 CU of MLP she wishes to get rid of. Bob has 300M credits that the Space IRS are eyeing greedily, which he'd like to convert into physical assets, preferably assets shaped like little ponies. Clearly a match made in the heavens. They both fly over to Remley Orbital, the nearest station willing to arbitrate a trade between the two.
Inside the station, they open the trade interface and put up what they're each willing to offer. The station also displays the holding period and the fee one or both will pay if the current transaction is accepted, with sliders for them to determine who will pay what portion of it (default is a 50-50 split). The TPG-owned station does not consider MLP to be anything special and does not bother with overhead fees, so they assess a total fee of 25M (100 credits / CU for the MLP + 5% of the 300M). Alice and Bob could split this evenly, but Alice thinks it's stupid for her to pay for getting paid, so she refuses. Bob doesn't think he should have to pay the full fee himself, so he rescinds his offer of 300M and instead submits a 287M offer. The station reevaluates their fee to 24.35M, and Bob commits to paying 100% of it. Alice isn't happy with this, but she takes the deal. Bob smirks; he just saved 1.15M.
When they accept the trade, the station takes Alice's 100,000 CU of MLP, and it takes 311.35M from Bob, then starts an 11 minute timer (10 minutes based on the total volume and mass of 100,000 CU of MLP, plus 60 seconds of overhead). Some caution lights on the station exterior begin glowing and a rumbling sound emits as the unseen forklifts inside spring into motion. Alice and Bob are free to leave; the station will transfer the MLP into Bob's station inventory and the 287M into Alice's account when the 11 minutes are up, whether they're present or not. Alice is so over MLP, so she heads off to Ukari to look into a rumor of a guy selling Pog. Bob doesn't have anything better to do and he's a little paranoid about his investment, so he hangs around the station.
Meanwhile, Rin is passing by in his Greyhound and notices from the lights that the station is conducting a bulk goods transfer. His grin intensifies and he comes back with a Ragnarock. By the time he runs out of rockets, the station is hemorrhaging MLP and Aerna. Rin proceeds to die, then wanders away in the direction of Odia.
Bob, meanwhile, is panicking. His poor MLP are drifting around out in the vacuum of space. Well, 80,000 CU of it is. Rin ran out of armor before he could dump all of it. Bob checks the trade status panel and it confirms that as things stand, neither the fee nor his 287M is being refunded, he's only going to receive 20,000 CU of MLP, and Alice will only receive 57.4M. Bob dashes into his hangar and grabs a Behemoth to start salvaging what he can of this fiasco.
Five minutes in, Bob has recovered about 30,000 CU of MLP. At this rate he'll scoop it all before it sublimates. Or he will if he isn't interrupted. Unfortunately, Eve jumps into the sector. Unlike Rin, she's managed to maintain a Respected standing with TPG. Seeing all the poor MLP drifting about in the cold vacuum of space, she decides to get out a Moth of her own and save the poor babies. Of the remaining 50,000 CU, Bob only recovers 24,985. Eve takes 24,997 CU herself and refuses to return them, stating that he is clearly not responsible enough to own MLP if he's going to be letting them get dumped into space all the time. Bob isn't sure what happened to the other 18 CU, but somewhere out there a newbie is complaining about her ship feeling more sluggish than it used to, ever since she visited Remley Orbital for repairs. She docks them two stars in her online review.
At the end of the 11 minutes, the station gives Bob the 20,000 CU it didn't lose, and it gives Alice 57.4M. They both receive an apology for the loss, along with a warning that for the danger they brought to the station, future trades made in the next week will come with an additional 1M fee. Alice is rather upset by this, and she gets downright pissed when she realizes that Bob managed to fly off with about 75% of the MLP even though she only got 20% of the credits. Bob mumbles something about this being why you should invest in physical assets and guard them yourself instead of trusting institutions, then makes himself scarce.
Somewhere in Odia, Eve gives Rin 5M and a Sedina Chocolate for the tip.
I like this idea, but how would NFZ factor into this?
Is it wrong that I like this better as a fan-fic than as a suggestion?
I like the concept of damageable stations belching out cargo, but I do wonder why it would be limited to specifically cargo currently being traded? Are all the transport avenues all on the exterior of stations while storage warehouses are tucked safe and snug deep in the bowels?
JJ, as for the NFZ, why would it behave any differently?
I like the concept of damageable stations belching out cargo, but I do wonder why it would be limited to specifically cargo currently being traded? Are all the transport avenues all on the exterior of stations while storage warehouses are tucked safe and snug deep in the bowels?
JJ, as for the NFZ, why would it behave any differently?
If you cause damage to station itself and as a result, you get temp KOS, wouldn't station guards come after you? How will that be useful for the pirate if he needs to scoop up the cargo to actually steal it?
That pirate co-ops with another pirate, thats how.
That's discrimination against preference to be a lone wolf.
Then the solo pirate can merely grab cargo and deal with station defences.
How will the solo pirate in a defenseless XC moth deal with station guards? Need that 200cu capacity in order to pick up a capship part!
However, this idea is certainly a big improvement over a completely risk-free trading window.
However, this idea is certainly a big improvement over a completely risk-free trading window.
How will player owned bots be prevented from abusing this system such as the TGFT bomber plugin or all the spotters floating around.
-1 A simpler solution is better than a more complex one.
Deleted a post that seemed to require a reminder: On Suggestions we debate the specifics of the topic, and not the individual who posts or comments. Or, as it says on the Be Nice policy post "debate the subject on its own merits, and not the other individual."
Continue the discussion.. I'm not jumping in to comment on the idea as of yet.
Continue the discussion.. I'm not jumping in to comment on the idea as of yet.
Greenwall is right, this is way more complex than the original suggestion and I guess would be tough to implement. I'll stand by my suggestion of only allowing in-station trades at conquerable stations, for a fee based on maybe volume of goods or/and credits paid for it?
Another cool thing would be to let the owners of the key to a station receive this "Trading fee" or maybe a portion of the fee, or maybe even set his/her own fee percentage that ranges from 0 to a preset cap.
This doesn't let everyone have access to this feature and also doesn't significantly affect the gameplay of rats, as they wouldn't have access to these stations in the first place if they are hostile to the trading parties and wouldn't be able to disrupt the trade.
Another cool thing would be to let the owners of the key to a station receive this "Trading fee" or maybe a portion of the fee, or maybe even set his/her own fee percentage that ranges from 0 to a preset cap.
This doesn't let everyone have access to this feature and also doesn't significantly affect the gameplay of rats, as they wouldn't have access to these stations in the first place if they are hostile to the trading parties and wouldn't be able to disrupt the trade.
they wouldn't have access to these stations in the first place if they are hostile to the trading parties and wouldn't be able to disrupt the trade.
False. Often pirates would conquer stations and then share keys to trading parties. A treaty may be reached, giving traders some confidence to use the stations.
Don't presume to know what it's like being a pirate if you haven't roleplayed as one yet.
False. Often pirates would conquer stations and then share keys to trading parties. A treaty may be reached, giving traders some confidence to use the stations.
Don't presume to know what it's like being a pirate if you haven't roleplayed as one yet.
sighs
On Suggestions we debate the specifics of the topic, and not the individual who posts or comments. Or, as it says on the Be Nice policy post "debate the subject on its own merits, and not the other individual."
Also I'm a pirate in-game.
If you as a pirate, shared a key with a trader, who also happens to trust you and you reciprocate it and there also happens to be a form of treaty amongst you two, there doesn't arise an issue of trade being disrupted, does it?
On Suggestions we debate the specifics of the topic, and not the individual who posts or comments. Or, as it says on the Be Nice policy post "debate the subject on its own merits, and not the other individual."
Also I'm a pirate in-game.
If you as a pirate, shared a key with a trader, who also happens to trust you and you reciprocate it and there also happens to be a form of treaty amongst you two, there doesn't arise an issue of trade being disrupted, does it?
Such a treaty usually doesn't guarantee who you will also share a key with. You won't attack him, but others who also have a key may attack him since they are not bound by the treaty.
This has occurred many, many times.
This has occurred many, many times.
Speaking of concepts that elude people....
On Suggestions we debate the specifics of the topic, and not the individual who posts or comments.
On Suggestions we debate the specifics of the topic, and not the individual who posts or comments.
"If you cause damage to station itself and as a result, you get temp KOS, wouldn't station guards come after you? How will that be useful for the pirate if he needs to scoop up the cargo to actually steal it?"
Yep, just like shooting a moth outside the station. This isn't an attempt to preserve the ability to just swoop in, yoink the cargo between moths, and bug out without having to hurt anybody. If this means you can't pull off a theft solo and you lack friends, hire a minion.
"How will player owned bots be prevented from abusing this system such as the TGFT bomber plugin or all the spotters floating around."
There is already nothing stopping you (besides the rules and the SF) from having a bot auto-bomb moths as they do the cargo dance. Furthermore, the current situation is easier to detect as you can just have a spotter bot watch for a pair or moths frequently undocking and docking. With this suggestion, you'd have to use an external program and either have it notice the appropriate blinken lights or detect the audio cue.
I suppose a downside is that with the cargo dance, when you determine that somebody is going to interfere, you can just stop undocking and continue later. With the system I suggested, once it starts, it's going to keep going until the attackers take all the cargo or the transfer finishes. That could be ameliorated by adding a stop condition. E.g. if more than 20% of the goods are lost, the trade aborts and the remaining 80% of both parties' assets are returned. I'm not a fan of that idea, but I consider it acceptable if allowing all the goods to be at risk is a bit overboard. Or it could be an extra service you pay the station for when making a trade, if you're feeling paranoid.
"A simpler solution is better than a more complex one."
Well, the simplest solution is the status quo, so I guess we can just close the Suggestions forum and go home. Besides, much of the complexity in this suggestion applies to in-station trade whether or not theft is an option.
But here is a simpler version of the theft mechanic: Upon reaching the damage threshold, 10% of the goods to be traded are immediately jettisoned, 10% of the credits are confiscated by the station, the attacker becomes KOS, and the station resets to zero damage. Repeat until satisfaction is achieved or goods are depleted.
Not as fun as a rent hull that needs to be repaired, IMO.
Yep, just like shooting a moth outside the station. This isn't an attempt to preserve the ability to just swoop in, yoink the cargo between moths, and bug out without having to hurt anybody. If this means you can't pull off a theft solo and you lack friends, hire a minion.
"How will player owned bots be prevented from abusing this system such as the TGFT bomber plugin or all the spotters floating around."
There is already nothing stopping you (besides the rules and the SF) from having a bot auto-bomb moths as they do the cargo dance. Furthermore, the current situation is easier to detect as you can just have a spotter bot watch for a pair or moths frequently undocking and docking. With this suggestion, you'd have to use an external program and either have it notice the appropriate blinken lights or detect the audio cue.
I suppose a downside is that with the cargo dance, when you determine that somebody is going to interfere, you can just stop undocking and continue later. With the system I suggested, once it starts, it's going to keep going until the attackers take all the cargo or the transfer finishes. That could be ameliorated by adding a stop condition. E.g. if more than 20% of the goods are lost, the trade aborts and the remaining 80% of both parties' assets are returned. I'm not a fan of that idea, but I consider it acceptable if allowing all the goods to be at risk is a bit overboard. Or it could be an extra service you pay the station for when making a trade, if you're feeling paranoid.
"A simpler solution is better than a more complex one."
Well, the simplest solution is the status quo, so I guess we can just close the Suggestions forum and go home. Besides, much of the complexity in this suggestion applies to in-station trade whether or not theft is an option.
But here is a simpler version of the theft mechanic: Upon reaching the damage threshold, 10% of the goods to be traded are immediately jettisoned, 10% of the credits are confiscated by the station, the attacker becomes KOS, and the station resets to zero damage. Repeat until satisfaction is achieved or goods are depleted.
Not as fun as a rent hull that needs to be repaired, IMO.
Upon reaching the damage threshold, 10% of the goods to be traded are immediately jettisoned, 10% of the credits are confiscated by the station, the attacker becomes KOS, and the station resets to zero damage. Repeat until satisfaction is achieved or goods are depleted.
What if you trade a single big valuable item, say a master computer?
If only 10% gets jettisoned when the damage threshold is reached, the damage threshold better be very, very low to make it worthwhile. Otherwise, make it 100%.
What if you trade a single big valuable item, say a master computer?
If only 10% gets jettisoned when the damage threshold is reached, the damage threshold better be very, very low to make it worthwhile. Otherwise, make it 100%.
In any instance where a partial item would be ejected, eject a full item.
Well, the simplest solution is the status quo, so I guess we can just close the Suggestions forum and go home.
Doing nothing is not a solution.
Look, every change in the game is likely to have some small consequence that makes something not possible that was before.
Doing nothing is not a solution.
Look, every change in the game is likely to have some small consequence that makes something not possible that was before.