Forums » Suggestions
A few things that turn me off full subbing to VO are as follows
-The game lacks completion on mobile devices, why would I pay for a product that I have to spend time to make fully functional? What pilot in their right mind sacrifices functionality for hud visuals? Implementing your own, less buggy version of Droid Buttons would be wise. Many other mobile games offer this.
-Joystick aim vs. Swipe/Mouse Aim
Mobile players are burdened with joystick controls on a mobile device, this creates a massive skill gap that is completely un necessary. Swipe aim is much more similar to mouse aim and should be the primary function on mobile devices. Download "Knives Out" on your mobile device for an example of mouse aim.
You could say, "well, its a mobile port"
So? Its a product, with obvious design flaws. You cant expect a product to grow if you dont improve on it, and make it fairly (as in balance) accessible to your target audiences.
The mobile port is cool and all, but it lacks overall functionality and the result is a crippling, negative experience.
Fair functional cross platform play is what would draw me to drop my EVE subscription in favor of VO
Otherwise why wipe away all the years of work i have in EVE
-The game lacks completion on mobile devices, why would I pay for a product that I have to spend time to make fully functional? What pilot in their right mind sacrifices functionality for hud visuals? Implementing your own, less buggy version of Droid Buttons would be wise. Many other mobile games offer this.
-Joystick aim vs. Swipe/Mouse Aim
Mobile players are burdened with joystick controls on a mobile device, this creates a massive skill gap that is completely un necessary. Swipe aim is much more similar to mouse aim and should be the primary function on mobile devices. Download "Knives Out" on your mobile device for an example of mouse aim.
You could say, "well, its a mobile port"
So? Its a product, with obvious design flaws. You cant expect a product to grow if you dont improve on it, and make it fairly (as in balance) accessible to your target audiences.
The mobile port is cool and all, but it lacks overall functionality and the result is a crippling, negative experience.
Fair functional cross platform play is what would draw me to drop my EVE subscription in favor of VO
Otherwise why wipe away all the years of work i have in EVE
Your post is cool and all, but it lacks in overall tone and the result is a crippling, negative experience. I am now a cripple.
Seriously though, why ruin your perfectly decent suggestions of "good droidbuttons" and "swipy mouse aim" with preemptive defensiveness?
Seriously though, why ruin your perfectly decent suggestions of "good droidbuttons" and "swipy mouse aim" with preemptive defensiveness?
Whilst i agree with genka that this was an unnecesarily negative post, i do have to mention the subject is warranted.
Given that the mobile interface is inherently flawed by the same method that the basic pc interface is flawed, it could be helped by simply allowing the circles that control directional movements both configurable, also adding a third for just a throttle - however you look at it actual movement needs to be accessable on three dimensions, not two, as is available on basic android. This means that a player is forced to either roll constantly using accelerometer which is highly disorientating, or dodge side to side, inviting easy hits from the opponent.
Alongside this change a minamal version of droidbuttons may then be applicable - most users would no longer need to completely remove the default interface.
Given that the mobile interface is inherently flawed by the same method that the basic pc interface is flawed, it could be helped by simply allowing the circles that control directional movements both configurable, also adding a third for just a throttle - however you look at it actual movement needs to be accessable on three dimensions, not two, as is available on basic android. This means that a player is forced to either roll constantly using accelerometer which is highly disorientating, or dodge side to side, inviting easy hits from the opponent.
Alongside this change a minamal version of droidbuttons may then be applicable - most users would no longer need to completely remove the default interface.
exactly as nyscersul said. DB is nice for its ability to create a thoroughly customized input system, but the only reason its actually necessary is due to the lack of
1) third dimensional movement
2) ability to swap which fields do what
3) ability to adjust sensitivity of the field. (on larger devices I tend to use a non-linear curve relative to center of field, where smaller devices feel more comfortable with a linear input)
Honestly, if only that were added, then DB could be used only by those who actually need it for various higher purposes without frustrating the new pilots for lack of capable control in the game.
@Tarbax, there are only four developers, and they work endlessly to improve the game. cut them some slack; even they have repeatedly mentioned that the mobile interface needs work.
1) third dimensional movement
2) ability to swap which fields do what
3) ability to adjust sensitivity of the field. (on larger devices I tend to use a non-linear curve relative to center of field, where smaller devices feel more comfortable with a linear input)
Honestly, if only that were added, then DB could be used only by those who actually need it for various higher purposes without frustrating the new pilots for lack of capable control in the game.
@Tarbax, there are only four developers, and they work endlessly to improve the game. cut them some slack; even they have repeatedly mentioned that the mobile interface needs work.
3 devs, counting Kurt (though it's my understanding he works solely on the graphical assets. Devs can correct me if I'm wrong about that).
I totally support the notion of improving the mobile version, but as people are pointing out, we're really hindered by development resources.
Plus, we have a lot of projects across a lot of platforms. While enhancing mobile would help with subs.. so would launching on Steam.. something we've promised for some years now and are still working to make happen. So, keep in mind that while you may be frustrated with one aspect of our product, we have to do our best to juggle all of them, while barely having any time to do anything.
Maintaining a mobile title is also a massive challenge from a technical standpoint. Android in particular is a minefield of GPU-driver-bugs, unstable devices and operating system flaws. We probably spent 20x as much effort just keeping the game running on mobile, as we ever have on any other platform.
Relative expectations are different as well. Some people find the mobile interface to be absolutely un-usable. I can personally defeat any bot, 1-on-1 using the unmodified-defaults, with no problems, which isn't a very high bar.. but I didn't really have expectations of strong PvP capability on mobile when we first rolled it out.
That being said.. I'm always for improving things, within the limitations of resources and relative needs and other challenges. I can't make VO into truly a "mobile-first" game, because that would probably require too many features that would be practically "cheating", and we view our title's inherent single-universe-for-all-platforms architecture as an unbreakable law. But I'm sure there's a lot of areas we can improve, like some of those mentioned in the original post here, without having to cross that line.
Plus, we have a lot of projects across a lot of platforms. While enhancing mobile would help with subs.. so would launching on Steam.. something we've promised for some years now and are still working to make happen. So, keep in mind that while you may be frustrated with one aspect of our product, we have to do our best to juggle all of them, while barely having any time to do anything.
Maintaining a mobile title is also a massive challenge from a technical standpoint. Android in particular is a minefield of GPU-driver-bugs, unstable devices and operating system flaws. We probably spent 20x as much effort just keeping the game running on mobile, as we ever have on any other platform.
Relative expectations are different as well. Some people find the mobile interface to be absolutely un-usable. I can personally defeat any bot, 1-on-1 using the unmodified-defaults, with no problems, which isn't a very high bar.. but I didn't really have expectations of strong PvP capability on mobile when we first rolled it out.
That being said.. I'm always for improving things, within the limitations of resources and relative needs and other challenges. I can't make VO into truly a "mobile-first" game, because that would probably require too many features that would be practically "cheating", and we view our title's inherent single-universe-for-all-platforms architecture as an unbreakable law. But I'm sure there's a lot of areas we can improve, like some of those mentioned in the original post here, without having to cross that line.
Well, I do have to agree with the lack of flying ability with default mobile controls. However I am way more interested in seeing a Steam release. I will invite all my Steam friends when that happens.
Unrelated, I know, but I am curious here...
Inc, you said "I can personally defeat any bot, 1-on-1 using the unmodified-defaults"... does that include the newer uber-bots that we saw in Latos a while back? If so, major kudos on your piloting from mobile!
Inc, you said "I can personally defeat any bot, 1-on-1 using the unmodified-defaults"... does that include the newer uber-bots that we saw in Latos a while back? If so, major kudos on your piloting from mobile!
I thought about that awhile after I posted it, and I don't honestly remember if I've tried since I made those (I was mentally referencing the standard bots, when I wrote the statement). But.. with the right ship loadout, I would give myself pretty decent odds? I'm not saying I'm amazing with the standard controls, I guess I just don't find them to be nearly as useless as some do.
But, I think more importantly, the standard controls are just not very intuitive to a lot of new players, which is really more of the problem. They aren't finding them quick or easy to pick up. So as far as that goes, it doesn't really matter whether I'm successful with the defaults or not, mostly whether there's a way of improving them that makes them more accessible without (hopefully) dumbing down too much capability from the later game.
As an example, control curves has always been a challenge there. People do ask us to slow down the reaction time to the analog input regions. We can definitely do that, but at an obvious cost to maneuverability during combat. So then you start to get situations where the flight is "easy to pick up" and learn, but then the person gets slaughtered as soon as they try doing anything "real". So basically you just kick the problem and frustration down the road..
Some would say one should then basically re-tune the whole game around making it easier for mobile players, but that's a bridge too far for me (although, ironically, I've been repeatedly accused of doing exactly that). So there's always going to be a bit of a "sink or swim" cutoff for any player on any challenging platform.. mobile, or otherwise. But there's certainly work that can be done to enhance and improve their introduction, and I'm sure there are better interfaces than what we have by default..
The value of a fully-configurable interface has never been lost on me. It was my first idea, back when we started doing mobile. But it's a lot of time to do it right and make it work really well, and have it not look ugly (and not-looking-ugly is actually super important, we get slammed on mobile reviews for anything like that).
But, I think more importantly, the standard controls are just not very intuitive to a lot of new players, which is really more of the problem. They aren't finding them quick or easy to pick up. So as far as that goes, it doesn't really matter whether I'm successful with the defaults or not, mostly whether there's a way of improving them that makes them more accessible without (hopefully) dumbing down too much capability from the later game.
As an example, control curves has always been a challenge there. People do ask us to slow down the reaction time to the analog input regions. We can definitely do that, but at an obvious cost to maneuverability during combat. So then you start to get situations where the flight is "easy to pick up" and learn, but then the person gets slaughtered as soon as they try doing anything "real". So basically you just kick the problem and frustration down the road..
Some would say one should then basically re-tune the whole game around making it easier for mobile players, but that's a bridge too far for me (although, ironically, I've been repeatedly accused of doing exactly that). So there's always going to be a bit of a "sink or swim" cutoff for any player on any challenging platform.. mobile, or otherwise. But there's certainly work that can be done to enhance and improve their introduction, and I'm sure there are better interfaces than what we have by default..
The value of a fully-configurable interface has never been lost on me. It was my first idea, back when we started doing mobile. But it's a lot of time to do it right and make it work really well, and have it not look ugly (and not-looking-ugly is actually super important, we get slammed on mobile reviews for anything like that).
I just wish at the time I was working on DroidButtons that it would have been possible to interact directly with the default touch interface, rather than having to hack around it. If the original controls had been accessible, then complete removal likely wouldn't have been necessary.
Problem with standard controls on mobile, with or without droidbuttons, is lack of fingers...
+1 TheCatman
Lack of fingers can be resolved by training a spider (or small octopus if you are arachnophobic) to perform keystrokes on command. Be aware, there is often some lag, due to the voice activated nature of such a solution... best used for utility commands such as navigation and/or chat commands.
How to Train your Spider
How to Train your Spider
Haha Faille!!
Lol
Back to the topic at hand, and one of my only gripes about the VO port, forget the touch screen! Get bloody mice working and everything will be neat. Yeah yeah I know, writing your own mouse driver to load is a PITA, but others do do it (I know you do not care) so why not VO? VO could find a way to "grab" the virtual mouse that Android presents, this I am sure of, but every time it is asked the answer is simply "no".
Want me to take a look at it for you?
Want me to take a look at it for you?
How many mobile pilots actually have mice for their phones or tablets though? Not to mention the small screen would make input sensitivity a real problem >.>
1) No one has Mice. How is this helpful to most mobile players? Or really "any" mobile players? Basically, if it doesn't improve things for at least 25% of new players, it probably isn't worth the time.
2) Who has implemented a custom USB driver in an Android game? I'm not personally aware of anyone. But I'd be curious if there's actually an example of "others do it". But it still doesn't resolve #1.
3) This is such an uncommon and unusual edge case solution that its lifespan is totally uncertain (even if it is possible, which is still an unproven theory). Google is constantly reworking the Android security model, especially of late, and it wouldn't be surprising to have something like raw USB input abruptly go away (as other things have before). And really, 99.9999% of Android users and apps would be unaffected, which is fine by Google. And then your development effort is wasted.
It isn't like no one has put any effort in here. NVIDIA worked on this for like a year. I personally got into a "vigorous" mildly yell-y debate with the head of the Android input Framework team, on-site at the Googleplex.
This also isn't just some random, arbitrary "no". Personally, I think mouse capture on Android would be cool. But, it's more like, you need to actually consider the meaningful reality of what you're suggesting, and who you're trying to help.
2) Who has implemented a custom USB driver in an Android game? I'm not personally aware of anyone. But I'd be curious if there's actually an example of "others do it". But it still doesn't resolve #1.
3) This is such an uncommon and unusual edge case solution that its lifespan is totally uncertain (even if it is possible, which is still an unproven theory). Google is constantly reworking the Android security model, especially of late, and it wouldn't be surprising to have something like raw USB input abruptly go away (as other things have before). And really, 99.9999% of Android users and apps would be unaffected, which is fine by Google. And then your development effort is wasted.
It isn't like no one has put any effort in here. NVIDIA worked on this for like a year. I personally got into a "vigorous" mildly yell-y debate with the head of the Android input Framework team, on-site at the Googleplex.
This also isn't just some random, arbitrary "no". Personally, I think mouse capture on Android would be cool. But, it's more like, you need to actually consider the meaningful reality of what you're suggesting, and who you're trying to help.
I'd use a mouse and keyboard, and if you look through the chat logs, I know at least 10 other people who have suggested mouse problems on Android devices (so people ARE trying to use them). That is like 25% of the player base no? Android TV, Nvidia Shield, Dockable Moto products, VR (the list of Android devices that are not phones/tablets grows daily)? Mouse movement or accuracy also has nothing at all to do with screen size, it is about resolution, and some Android phones have a better resolution than a lot of PC users.
As for people that have done mouse capturing, Quake, Quake 2, Quake 3, The Jedi Knight team, Retro-Arch (the latter only works on Shield devices or those sneaky custom roms with Nvidia extensions). I have brought this up a lot in the past, should I link to the threads where others have in the Android forum? Anyway, it was more of a poke than anything. I do get it, it would be a waste of time and nobody would use it >.>
As for people that have done mouse capturing, Quake, Quake 2, Quake 3, The Jedi Knight team, Retro-Arch (the latter only works on Shield devices or those sneaky custom roms with Nvidia extensions). I have brought this up a lot in the past, should I link to the threads where others have in the Android forum? Anyway, it was more of a poke than anything. I do get it, it would be a waste of time and nobody would use it >.>
Basically, if it doesn't improve things for at least 25% of new players, it probably isn't worth the time.
I think the above text is pretty clear? I'm not talking about 25% of people you know, or 25% of people chatting on 100.
I know some people don't really grok the sheer quantity of the thousands of new users who try Vendetta Online on mobile, every month. But, that's who this thread is intended to help. They don't have mice, don't use mice, and there's no indication that they want mice.
Hacking in mouse support would also be completely Android specific, as opposed to time spent on a configurable touch UI, which would be usable on iOS as well.
Anyway, consider your suggestion noted.. Again.
I think the above text is pretty clear? I'm not talking about 25% of people you know, or 25% of people chatting on 100.
I know some people don't really grok the sheer quantity of the thousands of new users who try Vendetta Online on mobile, every month. But, that's who this thread is intended to help. They don't have mice, don't use mice, and there's no indication that they want mice.
Hacking in mouse support would also be completely Android specific, as opposed to time spent on a configurable touch UI, which would be usable on iOS as well.
Anyway, consider your suggestion noted.. Again.