---Abstract:---
VO's gunner interface allowing few players to co-op at same ship is awesome way to bring friends/relatives to VO (resulting in more subscribers). current implementation, hoever, doesn't use its potential and encourages automatic player-bots usage, contributing nothing to game or VO subscribers count.

This proposal aims at fixing that.

---Expected outcome:---
Availability of great way for bringing new players to game. Possibility of training new players by veterans in-universe (even allowing newbies to earn something as gunners). Increased co-op between players via existing, but so-far greatly unused method. Creating new dynamic for both PvE and PvP scenarios.

---Expected devs man-hours effort required:---
Low. Mechanic is already existing in game, requiring only cosmetic-to-small tweaks for becoming viable.

*Proposition:*

1. Modifying one of existing med-heavy fighters to have turret on top (allowing close to 360 degrees - half a sphere - view of battlefield on the upper side of craft). Possible candidates are warthog (at expense of heavy port?), Hornet (less light ports) or Ragnarok (model seems to be begging for turret in the middle section, at cost of heavy and/or light port)

1a. Alternatively, new ship of such design. Obviously, requires more work than using existing asset.

In any case, having at least one variant of the ship being available for f2p.

Few inspirations (for turret location/sphere of fire, not actual ship design):

http://modelingmadness.com/review/allies/cleaver/gb/tcdefiantb.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/3R87WEW.jpg

2. Incorporating mechanism for ship pilot to lock turret fire (so main craft pilots stop being afraid of new players shooting NPC/NFZ and making both KOS). Such mechanism exist already via plugin:
http://www.voupr.com/plugin.php?name=captainskit

2a. Additionally, neat and flashy selection interface for turrets on capships wouldn't harm. Also existing via plugin:
http://www.voupr.com/plugin.php?name=turretviewer

3. Mechanism to encourage using real gunners on capital ships and other turret-capable ships, instead of existing automated systems. Just few sad examples:
http://www.voupr.com/plugin.php?name=kierky
http://www.voupr.com/plugin.php?name=stolenturrets

Methods of achieving this would be increased firepower of capship energy weapons (requiring real aiming), to make them more efficient than same player in disposable separate ship AND than automatic rocket turret bot (more in the detailed explanation).
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Proposed mechanisms could be incorporated separately, selectively, or as a whole - every and each would have positive impact. I predict that variants of point "1" would have biggest influence, though.

***Detailed explanation and rationale:***
We already have this awesome gunner mechanics, that allow players to co-op on same ship. It is truly unique for mobile platforms, and not-so-common in PC worlds of that scale. Rightly so, we are announcing it in the trailers, as it is *great* way of bringing relatives/friends to game - it allow gently introducing the to universe, under "wings" of our seasoned piloting skills and our hard-earned crafts.

Personally, seeing this feature in trailer was main "Selling point" for me, while searching for mobile-available space sim to play with my son. Just few weeks later, I am LTS subscriber. From my social circle, *all* people were drawn to game on this co-op premise. Few stayed as subs even thought being disappointed by actual range of single-ship co-op encountered.

At the same time, we are *CRIMINALLY* underusing the mechanism. Below capship lvl, only two main types of ships have turrets - Atlas, and Behemots. Out of those, f2p is atlas and Behemoth Heavy Miner - both having turrets in their bu... erm, backside.

Not very useful for dogfighting aspect, that new players are enjoying first, usually. Also, available ships basically limit practical usage of trading/mining with gunner sitting idly and dying of boredom, unless he is really dedicated roleplayer. *Very* dedicated individuals might enjoy jumping into storms with atlas and trolling O. Guardians, to make them chase and your friend pummeling them from backturret, but this can carry you only so far before becoming old. PVP aspect practically doesn't exist.
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Here goes the main point of this proposal, the "1" one - introducing mid or heavy fighter (most likely via re-purposing existing craft) with turret slot located in actually useful spot, allowing real dofighting with boths or PVP.

Whoever tried it in any old space or WWII planes sims with friend knows that there is *nothing* like it for building sentiment for a game, than perfecting cooperation in same ship (double so, if our gunner sits next to IRL, or communicating via voice speak). It not only brings new fight tactics and dynamic to VO, it also using mechanism that we *already have* (yet practically unused)! Trading some maneuverability/raw forward firepower of regular fighter for 360 degree range of cover/assault fire, enemies trying to position themselves on the turret-less side of craft, maybe by teaming up from two sides... True skill-based /cooperation, on both twin-seat fighter and their enemies side.
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Strange as it sounds, the biggest complaint against taking other players as gunners on existing capships - that I have heard in game - is fear of "noobs attacking guards" and making pilot of main craft losing faction/becoming KOS. PReventing it via mechanism from point "2" of the proposal seems both easy to implement and natural.
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Last but not least, it is hard to argue than now - as it stands - having gunner player supporting capship owner via separate ship, instead of sitting in turret, is in (almost) any case more effective. Various things contribute to that - for example, ships and lives being so cheap, than repeatedly losing (in-real-life expensive) support crafts is practically a no-cost, so longer-living gunner in a turret doesn't have so much appeal as it should.

Also, availability of fire-and-forget homing turret solutions just begs for growth of cancer, that replacing living gunners with automatic defense systems (like mentioned plugins) is. It contributes *NOTHING* to gameplay or between-players interaction, if anything, it can tax game servers with dummy f2p clone accounts (if bots manning gunners become widespread).

Is see few remedies to this:

a) increasing firepower and range of manually-aimed capital turrets to make them actually deserved thing by capship owners. Like, ship being 2x or 3x more effective with few gunners on board, and a monster if manned by full complement of gunners (guilds having more incentive to properly cooperate?). Possibly reducing weaponry available for direct-fire control of capship main pilot, making them strictly for-coop things.

b) Either taking means to limit/remove automatic systems taking control of turrets (changes to plugin interface), or just plain removing fire-and-forget things from them. Either have living player manning them, or GTFO. This would require increasing firepower/range potential of non-capship (but requiring actual aiming) turrets, as well.
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I hope that this document proves useful for VO dev team. It surely took many days of thinking, in-game experimenting and some hours of writing on my side, All Hail the VO!

Awesome document. It is something I felt Vendetta is lacking, but was unable to summarize in the coherent proposition so far. Big +1.

(disclaimer: I was informed that Cat is finally posting this, thus the short notice comment. I was participating in various in game turret gameplay tests with Cat, actually spent MANY hours on that)

Regarding #2 : If your turret gunner violates the nfz, he or she is ejected from the ship automagicaly. Also, since there is a plugin to do it already, there is no need to incorporate into the game.

Regarding #3: Those exist because the turrets will not fire automatically. They are not "sad" examples.

Regarding your statement that rear face turret is "Not very useful for dogfighting aspect, ".

Any rear facing turrets are incredibly useful for pvp in this game. And for ship protection in general. To say otherwise is misinformed.

--

Now about adding a turret to a ship, only the rag makes sense. And this has been suggested a bunch of times on these forums.

How do you suggest to differentiate between a f2p "bot" account and a f2p "real player" account?

Thank you for your input, guys.
Re violating of NFZ etc: In any case, ship owner should be able to issue "hold fire". Be it shooting other players in monitored space, or else. Fact that there exists plugin to do some thing doesn't mean it shouldn't be incorporated in main game in any case - plugins tend to break with have updates affecting mechanics they relied upon, lose maintainers or files becoming unavailable, whatever. Plugin existing is just an example how thing in question can be achieved.

Re turret in butt usefulness: I am not advocating removing them from existing ships, I advocate having *other* configurations available. In any case, turret in butt means pilot and gunner can't fire to same target, limiting scenarios that most new and mid players find.

Re differentiating between bots and non bots - more aggressive equipment for proving being physically present come to mind. But, my main point was about making people WANT real gunners, instead of bots - by giving aim-required turrets firepower and range to be deserved more than dumb bot spamming guided rockets from them (or banishing guided rockets from turrets altogether, cause spamming "fire" without aim isn't interesting for living gunner, either).

Re "not cancer" - mechanism that encourages using accounts for bot purposes instead of - or even in preference to - living players manning turrets *is* cancer. I did experiment, offering on 100 to man turrets for free or negilible (like 5k credits per real time hour) amount. For three days, no one was interested - all I got was well-meant PMs saying that no one will take the offer, add people that issue turrets prefer to have misilles and automates there. It *is* pure definition of mechanic encouraging way of using that contributes morning to player interactions in game, and in fact, discourages them. Pure definition of "cancerous" thing for MMO game like VO.

Cheers,
/CatLady

Actually, I want bots. I want auto fire systems. Player manned turrets are too unreliable. And I most definitely want firecracker spam when I'm defending myself.

But perhaps I'm alone in this thought.

Here is the real issue.

Turreted ships should have automated fire control as NPC convoy ships do, they don't and most likely won't. This in my opinion as a bigger lack of feature.

Your experiment of offering gunner services should prove to you that turreted ship owners don't want unreliable unknown characters in their turrets. I for one do not. Finding trust worthy gunners who play at the exact same times you want to play is hit or miss, therefore unreliable.

In your opinion it is a cancer to not allow players in your turrets. It is YOUR opinion and I will bet almost every capship owner will disagree with you. You can not force players to interact, even with bribery.

If you find it that cancerous, build a capship and take on as many "real" turret gunners as you want.

I would like that turret with the orange/red fire that is shown in the into of the game. That fire is pretty.

Not taking real players as gunner is of course everyone's right, but it should NOT be compensated by having "automatons" fill in the role (just like we don't allow bots to fill up lacking players in a guild, or else).

Argument about bots being more reliable than cooperating players is "meh" in MMO game like Vendetta. Following on that logic, we could turn it all into single-player only. Humans are unreliable, after all...

Bad news for you. a bunch of guilds are built on empty f2p accounts that never get used, as well as player accounts that haven't logged in for years.

"Argument about bots being more reliable than cooperating players is "meh" in MMO game like Vendetta. Following on that logic, we could turn it all into single-player only. Humans are unreliable, after all..."

What is more meh is capships that are a grind to build and don't have already automated defense turrets, f2p laggers, f2p station sitting chatters and people who think they are going to make VO better with their pipe dream Utopian opinions.

I love having real gunners, but the people stating that they are often unreliable are correct.

And to have them either I have to drive around an empty trident so they can all dock, or I can only pick them up at capital stations. We need another way to get them on board easily, like the ability to get out of their ec88 into my dent then eject the ec88. I don't know, but we need to have some method. Too often a new player gets on board at a capital station then lags enough three jumps later to fall out. Then I have energy weapons I can't aim while driving. So either I need a bunch of noobs on board to fight attrition, or a way to change turret weapons while in flight. You get my drift.

I like your train of thought, but you have to modify it to consider the issues brought up by the peanut gallery :)

There should be an option to do a low level mission in an npc turret the whole way.

@csgno1:

Sure, every actual issue with practical side of cooperating with real, living players, is valid to be brought in this thread (after all, it is why it was created here, instead of being send directly to devs).

I think that now we have vile circle situation - turrets requiring skilled operator aren't beneficial enough vs. "dumb fire and forget" ones, so there is not enough need for gunners. There is no need for gunners, so people aren't skilled at using them properly and providing service that would be searched for by capship owners. Add to it limitations of getting gunners on board (which is not documented *anywhere* - despite reading all manuals, wikis, and most of forum, the first time I had to ask in-game, after trying to dock in butt of atlas) and maintaining gunners when on board already (some mitigated by ideas presented earlier/plugins).

@Dread.Pirate.Roberts

I'm not exactly sure what your rant about f2p, guilds, chatters and state of universe (tm), have to do with the topic and hand. If possible, kindly asking you to not derail the thread.
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Been giving it another chain of thoughts yesterday, and I think that nowadays - when everyone and their uncle is either having, or soon-to-have this or other capship (money is laughably easy to make, and prices for complete kits aren't outrageous, even not doing most missions, dedicated individual can save for capship in few months, addict during weeks... After getting it, losing is practically impossible and rebuild price negligible), we are facing another problem.

Namely, people want them to act like your regular ship - just slower, bigger, and more mean. It spawns requests like fully automated turrets, etc.

In my opinion, capship is/should not be *that* - same thing as every other ship, but with complicated technical side and just last/close to last one. It should be Vortex of player<->player interaction during big missions/events (be it special ones or things automated in game, like Deneb or CtC), next to useless with just the owner on board (unless we count it as deep-space repair/reload platform),, bud deadly when stuffed with cooperating players, spitting fire from it human-controller turrets and throwing waves of fighters, carrier-like.

You know, the thing that it was meant to be at the start - something whole guilds build and own (requires fix in owner mechanism), pivotal assets in power politics. Not just the regular off-the-mill big ship that you see carried by pirates (or heck, anyone) for mundate day-to-day tasks, a empty badge or holiday resort for fast sedina b8 repairs, that you start seeing more often than not, as of late.

To fix the situation, mentioned changes in some of mentioned mechanics would be required, but also more punishing consequences for losing them. Personally, I would like to see them needed to be rebuild *from scratch*, but that is probably little bit too extreme for most - but, for sure, not just "throw some money, here is your rebuild trident from the tape line".

Also, making them really beneficial *only* during heavy cooperation with at least few players would act as natural limit to the current urge "everyone must have capship at some point of the gaming life". Instead, only people wanting to organize things with others (guilds?) would work towards one. Again, getting *hube* payoff when used correctly and properly staffed. In extension, it would also propel existence of real guilds, instead of the haunted-house-empty ones (propelling final demise of the latter), but that is different topic, as said.

/CatLady

Ps.

I would *love* to - at some point - get a comment from staff, point of view on the ideas from devs perspective. Really interested if it is of any importance, or the planned vector for development goes other way...

So basically your goal is to get the dedicated vo players with with full subs and capships to quit. Brilliant.

As I said before, build your own capship and invite all the gunners you want. As for the rest of the capship owners I feel pretty confident in saying we all prefer things the way they are.

We definitely need a bomber-type ship with a turret.

Seems like related idea (merge?):

https://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/3/33879