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I notice more and more afk characters docked at strategic stations with no apparent reason for being there other than to spot players as they enter / leave these sectors. To me this is not good for gameplay.
All these spotter ships around iether afk docked or spaced out extreemly beyond radar range. Some are there to spot players to attack. Others to spot if their are characters spotting for players to attack. Aside from being poor gaming, in some circumstances this causes game mechanics to not function as they are meant to.
I suggest that characters docked with a station could only see the other docked characters at that station and possibly ships in the stations NFZ. Characters in space could only see other characters or NPC’s in space with in a determined range from them and no enter / leave messages beyond that. This range need not be limited to radar range. The range for detection in space can still be 2x or 3x the radar range, just not unlimited as it is now. Unlimited range weather in space or docked for detecting ships entering and or leaving a sector is the mechanic I take issue with here.
If the map was not the closed loop it is this might not be as much of a concern.
All these spotter ships around iether afk docked or spaced out extreemly beyond radar range. Some are there to spot players to attack. Others to spot if their are characters spotting for players to attack. Aside from being poor gaming, in some circumstances this causes game mechanics to not function as they are meant to.
I suggest that characters docked with a station could only see the other docked characters at that station and possibly ships in the stations NFZ. Characters in space could only see other characters or NPC’s in space with in a determined range from them and no enter / leave messages beyond that. This range need not be limited to radar range. The range for detection in space can still be 2x or 3x the radar range, just not unlimited as it is now. Unlimited range weather in space or docked for detecting ships entering and or leaving a sector is the mechanic I take issue with here.
If the map was not the closed loop it is this might not be as much of a concern.
https://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/1/27302?page=11
Incarnate has pretty much said he's indifferent to this issue last I checked (see above).
Personally I'm only against the use of F2P or lite accounts for such activity. If you want to make / use a bot account, you should be a full sub.
I don't really see how it is "poor gaming". Multiple simultaneous account usage is nothing new in VO, and, while frustrating to many of use "single instance" users, is ultimately completely unpreventable. As an example: If they outlawed camping in stations for long durations, then someone would write a plugin to launch every X minutes and explode. If they outlawed that, then someone would figure out a new way.
Further, detecting enter/leave status (within visual range at least) is essential for situational awareness. It's completely lame that we don't have such notifications built-in and available to the non-plugin-running user -- and that should change -- but they shouldn't be removed.
That said, I'd have no problem with an add-on that provides some kind of stealth along the lines of what you are requesting.
Incarnate has pretty much said he's indifferent to this issue last I checked (see above).
Personally I'm only against the use of F2P or lite accounts for such activity. If you want to make / use a bot account, you should be a full sub.
I don't really see how it is "poor gaming". Multiple simultaneous account usage is nothing new in VO, and, while frustrating to many of use "single instance" users, is ultimately completely unpreventable. As an example: If they outlawed camping in stations for long durations, then someone would write a plugin to launch every X minutes and explode. If they outlawed that, then someone would figure out a new way.
Further, detecting enter/leave status (within visual range at least) is essential for situational awareness. It's completely lame that we don't have such notifications built-in and available to the non-plugin-running user -- and that should change -- but they shouldn't be removed.
That said, I'd have no problem with an add-on that provides some kind of stealth along the lines of what you are requesting.
It would be nice to limit what's available to docked characters, but there's no more chance of that happening than there is of VO finally killing off the damn sector list entirely.
Is that Magic Bus or whatever still sitting in the asteroid in Nyrius?
I would either like to see reduced sector list information for ships out of radar range or no information for them. Imagine approaching Sedina from the Odia wh and not knowing who might be lurking near the gate. Such would also provide some evasion alternatives by planning alternate trajectories towards the wh incase a hostile shows as you get within range and you are stuck in the asteroid field.
I do agree with the OP on unlimited range for showing players in sector should be fixed.
I would either like to see reduced sector list information for ships out of radar range or no information for them. Imagine approaching Sedina from the Odia wh and not knowing who might be lurking near the gate. Such would also provide some evasion alternatives by planning alternate trajectories towards the wh incase a hostile shows as you get within range and you are stuck in the asteroid field.
I do agree with the OP on unlimited range for showing players in sector should be fixed.
It's not an unlimited range.
The devs already limited this quite a bit a few years ago.
Why are people so obsessed with being seen in a multiplayer game?
Why are people so obsessed with being seen in a multiplayer game?
For me its not about being seen. I'd still love to see the active players list re-instated. It's about not knowing who else might be in the sector with you until you are within range to detect them.
It's about not knowing who else might be in the sector with you until you are within range to detect them.
No, for you it's about reducing the detection capability. We already do not know who else is in the sector when they are out of range. It's just that the range is 15km or so.
No, for you it's about reducing the detection capability. We already do not know who else is in the sector when they are out of range. It's just that the range is 15km or so.
Which is pretty much what I said. I would suggest reducing the current range to around 5 km, which imo would open up some interesting gameplay strategies.
I would suggest reducing the current range to around 5 km
+1
+1
1) As people mention, Max Sensor Range is currently set to 15km. It is not unlimited. I am not against reducing this further (I actually intended that, but chose to wait until other related content was also ready, which was then all delayed). The original plan was to continue expanding radar-range, reducing max-sensor-range, and meeting somewhere in the middle (maybe 6-8k?), and just have that be the flat limit for all types of data.
2) The recent increased proliferation of bots is a bit annoying / concerning to me as well. It is not-great for the server for some technical reasons. I was also concerned about it "in theory" in the older thread that Greenwall linked to, but at the time it wasn't as big of an issue, and my main concern was not-dying of a major fever while huddled in a friend's house in California (I picked up some heavy-duty flu at GDC that year). I'm not against further reducing max-sensor-range for docked ships either. Contrary to what Greenwall says, it would actually not be that hard for us to functionally prevent bots (static, auto-launching / exploding, or otherwise). We've just been "nice" about it and haven't done so.. as I mentioned in that old thread, some bots seemed interesting and useful, and generally we don't like to crack down on areas of innovation unless they get out of hand. If everyone starts to want their own sector-monitoring bot, keeping all my sectors online for long cycles and preventing the server cluster from efficiently re-balancing load, well.. that's going to be a problem.
2) The recent increased proliferation of bots is a bit annoying / concerning to me as well. It is not-great for the server for some technical reasons. I was also concerned about it "in theory" in the older thread that Greenwall linked to, but at the time it wasn't as big of an issue, and my main concern was not-dying of a major fever while huddled in a friend's house in California (I picked up some heavy-duty flu at GDC that year). I'm not against further reducing max-sensor-range for docked ships either. Contrary to what Greenwall says, it would actually not be that hard for us to functionally prevent bots (static, auto-launching / exploding, or otherwise). We've just been "nice" about it and haven't done so.. as I mentioned in that old thread, some bots seemed interesting and useful, and generally we don't like to crack down on areas of innovation unless they get out of hand. If everyone starts to want their own sector-monitoring bot, keeping all my sectors online for long cycles and preventing the server cluster from efficiently re-balancing load, well.. that's going to be a problem.
We all know who is doing it, why and how.
A 'bot' placed in station and equipped with TGFT utilities will report any pilot and his ship that enters/leaves sector.
An array of bots like this placed at a lot sectors of interest form a spy network array that transfers all available information to the owners/users of this system.
So far this TGFT utilities 'bot' network has been present 24/7 in all 3 stations in Latos, 2 stations in Bractus, 1 station in Pelatus, 1 station in Verasi, 2 stations in Nyrius, 1 station in Dau and 1 station in Arta.
Reducing the sensor range for players inside station to 500m would be more then enough to stop this.
Disclaimer: By mentioning TGFT utilities - I am not targeting anyone specific, it's just an official name of the publicly available plug-in that is being used for this spy bot network array.
A 'bot' placed in station and equipped with TGFT utilities will report any pilot and his ship that enters/leaves sector.
An array of bots like this placed at a lot sectors of interest form a spy network array that transfers all available information to the owners/users of this system.
So far this TGFT utilities 'bot' network has been present 24/7 in all 3 stations in Latos, 2 stations in Bractus, 1 station in Pelatus, 1 station in Verasi, 2 stations in Nyrius, 1 station in Dau and 1 station in Arta.
Reducing the sensor range for players inside station to 500m would be more then enough to stop this.
Disclaimer: By mentioning TGFT utilities - I am not targeting anyone specific, it's just an official name of the publicly available plug-in that is being used for this spy bot network array.
I don't care what one particular plugin is called, it is not relevant to this discussion.
I think we can discuss this topic just fine without making comments about "We all know who is doing it, why and how."
Here's a clue, if you need to write a "disclaimer" in your post, probably don't make that post.
The only salient point in your whole post is the 500m suggestion, which I think is too small. That drastically limits the awareness of any docked player, to the point where their danger may be greatly increased.
I think we can discuss this topic just fine without making comments about "We all know who is doing it, why and how."
Here's a clue, if you need to write a "disclaimer" in your post, probably don't make that post.
The only salient point in your whole post is the 500m suggestion, which I think is too small. That drastically limits the awareness of any docked player, to the point where their danger may be greatly increased.
it would actually not be that hard for us to functionally prevent bots (static, auto-launching / exploding, or otherwise)
Finding the right balance between what a normal player prefers to do in a sector and what a "bot" does seems pretty difficult to me. Who is to say how long staying motionless in a sector is acceptable before being force-logged out? What about automating alternate logging on/offs between two devices and accounts in the same sector? What about IRC?
Additionally, you might have to consider nerfing long-used and very helpful things like lua access to turbo and chat which won't go over well.
From what I can see bot "proliferation" is just an extension of great "lua divide" that many complaints are tied to: spybots, automated launching bots, chat bots, shop bots, searching bots, etc.
Finding the right balance between what a normal player prefers to do in a sector and what a "bot" does seems pretty difficult to me. Who is to say how long staying motionless in a sector is acceptable before being force-logged out? What about automating alternate logging on/offs between two devices and accounts in the same sector? What about IRC?
Additionally, you might have to consider nerfing long-used and very helpful things like lua access to turbo and chat which won't go over well.
From what I can see bot "proliferation" is just an extension of great "lua divide" that many complaints are tied to: spybots, automated launching bots, chat bots, shop bots, searching bots, etc.
In some ways it doesn't matter what we reduce the sensor range for docked ships to...99% of the traffic to a station will dock with it anyway, so the bot will capture info.
Conversely, if you set the range of docked ships to 500m, I will station camp my targets at 501m from the station...
In terms of the Sector List range versus radar range, I'd very much like to see them set to the exact same distance. It's a PITA, if nothing else, for players to have to monitor two systems in an effort to get maximum available information on their surroundings. 5000m is plenty far ranging, while being at the edge of relevant interaction distance (i.e., if I see someone at 5000m, depending on ships, vectors, and intentions, I have a decent chance of interacting).
Conversely, if you set the range of docked ships to 500m, I will station camp my targets at 501m from the station...
In terms of the Sector List range versus radar range, I'd very much like to see them set to the exact same distance. It's a PITA, if nothing else, for players to have to monitor two systems in an effort to get maximum available information on their surroundings. 5000m is plenty far ranging, while being at the edge of relevant interaction distance (i.e., if I see someone at 5000m, depending on ships, vectors, and intentions, I have a decent chance of interacting).
Greenwall, give me some credit for probably knowing what I'm talking about. Your post also contributes nothing to this discussion. This is not about general lua plugins, or access to turbo or chat or anything else.
This is about max sensor range, potentially decreasing its limit further in general, specifically in stations, and salient content that has some relevant bearing on that, exact subject.
This is about max sensor range, potentially decreasing its limit further in general, specifically in stations, and salient content that has some relevant bearing on that, exact subject.
Conversely, if you set the range of docked ships to 1000m, I will station camp my targets at 1001m from the station...
Yes, exactly. I was thinking 2km may be a reasonable time-to-close-the-distance that might balance a person's ability to reach combat capability, with awareness of the sector.
For docking traffic, it will definitely not impact anything. But for some other cases it might be a helpful mitigating factor.
Yes, exactly. I was thinking 2km may be a reasonable time-to-close-the-distance that might balance a person's ability to reach combat capability, with awareness of the sector.
For docking traffic, it will definitely not impact anything. But for some other cases it might be a helpful mitigating factor.
I mean, the only reason to change in station sensor range is to give an advantage to those who want to hunt someone hiding in a station. Bots are going to get all the info they need no matter what you restrict docked sensor range to. I'm not against that, being a hunter most of the time myself, but it's not exactly a burning concern.
Fair enough, no mentioning of the tech that is the only reason persistent spy bots even exist and this is perceived as a problem, let's not deal with core problem and try to find a solution that will make the consequences less problematic.
I think 500m visibility range from inside the station is quite enough.
The only real danger of someone camping you is at Corvus stations and 500m is more then enough to see if someone is sitting by the dock waiting for you. If he is further then 500m, well... 500m is enough to give you some kind of a head start for running.
The rest of the universe... well, we have NFZ & SF to deal with evildoers in station sectors so this should not be a big concern.
I think 500m visibility range from inside the station is quite enough.
The only real danger of someone camping you is at Corvus stations and 500m is more then enough to see if someone is sitting by the dock waiting for you. If he is further then 500m, well... 500m is enough to give you some kind of a head start for running.
The rest of the universe... well, we have NFZ & SF to deal with evildoers in station sectors so this should not be a big concern.
I mean, the only reason to change in station sensor range is to give an advantage to those who want to hunt someone hiding in a station. Bots are going to get all the info they need no matter what you restrict docked sensor range to. I'm not against that, being a hunter most of the time myself, but it's not exactly a burning concern.
Actually, the point is for cases like Jallik E15, Pyronis O9, and Initros O12.. situations where there is a station in a wormhole sector. A bot in that location will gain all transiting shipping information, regardless of whether the traffic is docking.
On the other hand, if the station distance were a bit further from the wormhole than their docked-sensor range, that would limit information leakage about transiting (non-docking) traffic.
Actually, the point is for cases like Jallik E15, Pyronis O9, and Initros O12.. situations where there is a station in a wormhole sector. A bot in that location will gain all transiting shipping information, regardless of whether the traffic is docking.
On the other hand, if the station distance were a bit further from the wormhole than their docked-sensor range, that would limit information leakage about transiting (non-docking) traffic.