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the UDV variant of the Raptor is still way underused. reading through logs it has received a big load of buffs (scanners etc.) but few have made it a better fighter.
i understand that the flaws of the ship are intended. it seems to be very weak to rockets due to its large profile. yesterday i brought a raptor UDV to Sedina b8 and fought some guy with double flares. he had me taken out in a matter of 30 seconds.
along with the weakness to rockets the ship doesn't seem to turn well. it's agility seems to be unchanged since the 2 small ports were exchanged for the 2 large ones. so either adjusting this was forgotten or is unwanted to give the ship an extra weak point.
reading through previous suggestions it always looked like the ship was supposed to not be an awesome fighter. and since we are not getting anything to to address the weaknesses of this ship, can we atleast get another armor buff? 10500 seems really low considering that it is the only heavy chaser in VO with its 2 large ports.
i suggest we buff the armor from 10500 to 12000 (+1500 armor). it will still have its weak points but will last longer and will be a bit more forgiving when somebody uses rockets. :)
i understand that the flaws of the ship are intended. it seems to be very weak to rockets due to its large profile. yesterday i brought a raptor UDV to Sedina b8 and fought some guy with double flares. he had me taken out in a matter of 30 seconds.
along with the weakness to rockets the ship doesn't seem to turn well. it's agility seems to be unchanged since the 2 small ports were exchanged for the 2 large ones. so either adjusting this was forgotten or is unwanted to give the ship an extra weak point.
reading through previous suggestions it always looked like the ship was supposed to not be an awesome fighter. and since we are not getting anything to to address the weaknesses of this ship, can we atleast get another armor buff? 10500 seems really low considering that it is the only heavy chaser in VO with its 2 large ports.
i suggest we buff the armor from 10500 to 12000 (+1500 armor). it will still have its weak points but will last longer and will be a bit more forgiving when somebody uses rockets. :)
Almost every ship is flare bait. No ship should be the best at everything. VO is rock-paper-scissors in space. Argue for a reduction in concussion of flares if you like.
+1
@csgno1
but thats not true! not almost every ship is "flare bait". only the ones with a very large profile are easier to hit with flares. i may not be an expert but to me it looks like only the Centaur and the Raptor (and obviously the Behemoth) fall into that category. every other ship seems to be slimmer, flatter etc. which makes them less a big target.
the Centaur has 3 ports and much more armor and a profile about the same size. and since we are not going to get the profile slimmed it seemed the most sense making to ask for a buff to the armor so it can atleast stand longer in combat.
P.S: i do not understand the rock-paper-scissors thing...? VO is a skill based twitch combat game. luck is a factor of course but i am certain that skill outwighs it.
but thats not true! not almost every ship is "flare bait". only the ones with a very large profile are easier to hit with flares. i may not be an expert but to me it looks like only the Centaur and the Raptor (and obviously the Behemoth) fall into that category. every other ship seems to be slimmer, flatter etc. which makes them less a big target.
the Centaur has 3 ports and much more armor and a profile about the same size. and since we are not going to get the profile slimmed it seemed the most sense making to ask for a buff to the armor so it can atleast stand longer in combat.
P.S: i do not understand the rock-paper-scissors thing...? VO is a skill based twitch combat game. luck is a factor of course but i am certain that skill outwighs it.
1) Flares are triggered by proximity, not hitting. Go dodge flares in a corvult, you might find the experience similar to what you experienced in the raptor unless you excel at dodging.
2) The rock-paper-scissors thing means there should not be a ship that is superior to all others in every way. For example, if I'm fighting a prom I may choose an IBG because it strafes well (to avoid the flares) but it has low armor. If I'm chasing rags I'll use a hound. If I'm fighting any light fighter I would never choose a hound.
So continually building up the UDV Raptor runs the danger of making it like the hound in the sense that, the hound is the first choice for too many activities (bombing, pirating, safe travel, defensing stations).
2) The rock-paper-scissors thing means there should not be a ship that is superior to all others in every way. For example, if I'm fighting a prom I may choose an IBG because it strafes well (to avoid the flares) but it has low armor. If I'm chasing rags I'll use a hound. If I'm fighting any light fighter I would never choose a hound.
So continually building up the UDV Raptor runs the danger of making it like the hound in the sense that, the hound is the first choice for too many activities (bombing, pirating, safe travel, defensing stations).
The UDV is fine for dodging flares, if you don't over weigh it with gats and chaos.
The greatest weakness of the UDV (and raptors in general) is how poorly it spins (in the x/y axis), and handles while trying to aim it. Of note, I have seen Nahin Lor aim the UDV like it was a top of the line fighter, and he even defeated me 1v1, all energy, UDV vs SVG, at knife fighting range. But Nahin Lor is the only one I have ever seen get that kind of performance out of a UDV.
The UDV has a secondary penalty, in having two large ports. The Jackhammer proximity fuse significantly limits it's usefulness at close range. I seem to recall this problem being addressed for sunflares some years back, and as a result, sunflares are now much better at close range than jackhammers. Jackhammers may need similar attention.
I love the UDV. I have killed valks and proms using a UDV. But I am Roda Slane. And Roda Slane in a valk or Roda Slane in a prom would almost always kill Roda Slane in a UDV. The fact that I include the word 'almost' in that statement is a sign that the UDV performance is reaching acceptable limits.
Giving the UDV more armor will not significantly improve its' dog fighting capabilities.
The UDV needs to handle better (to aim better), and it needs better rockets.
The greatest weakness of the UDV (and raptors in general) is how poorly it spins (in the x/y axis), and handles while trying to aim it. Of note, I have seen Nahin Lor aim the UDV like it was a top of the line fighter, and he even defeated me 1v1, all energy, UDV vs SVG, at knife fighting range. But Nahin Lor is the only one I have ever seen get that kind of performance out of a UDV.
The UDV has a secondary penalty, in having two large ports. The Jackhammer proximity fuse significantly limits it's usefulness at close range. I seem to recall this problem being addressed for sunflares some years back, and as a result, sunflares are now much better at close range than jackhammers. Jackhammers may need similar attention.
I love the UDV. I have killed valks and proms using a UDV. But I am Roda Slane. And Roda Slane in a valk or Roda Slane in a prom would almost always kill Roda Slane in a UDV. The fact that I include the word 'almost' in that statement is a sign that the UDV performance is reaching acceptable limits.
Giving the UDV more armor will not significantly improve its' dog fighting capabilities.
The UDV needs to handle better (to aim better), and it needs better rockets.
Or small port rockets need to be nerfed. Why not just give star/ice/sunflares a longer fuse, and increase the delay? That would go a long way to solving the UDV's problems while also solving an even bigger problem at the same time.
No Hawkfeather, that's a stupid idea.
+1 to a bit more armor. More armor isn't meant to improve it's dogfighting capabilities, but would be welcomed in other situations.
+1 to a bit more armor. More armor isn't meant to improve it's dogfighting capabilities, but would be welcomed in other situations.
greenwall, I believe you have yet to refute even one of my suggestions or arguments without resorting to childish cop-outs. Why do you think it's a stupid idea? I mean, sure, give the UDV more armor, but like Roda said that won't do anything for it at all. We don't need band-aids, we need a solution to the root problem.
+1 to more armor
The handling of the UDV is lacking but I highly suspect that this is not intended behaviour. The developers wouldn't just cut 2 small ports and jam in 2 large ports without changing the stats if they didn't exactly want this. Tweaking the stats to fit the 2 large ports would be the first thing you think of. It seems very much like they wanted the UDV to be this sluggish in order to be not be among the top class ships.
An armor buff makes sense. Even if we gave +2500 armor to it over the +1500 suggested, as the ship will still behave as intended. It's performance will not be better, but it will give a pilot the chance to last longer in combat to bring more hits in. It's not crossing the "we don't want it to compete with Valks/Proms" line. Do it!
Or small port rockets need to be nerfed.
Or the whiners learn to dodge flares!
Honestly, I'm tired of reading this. Rockets are a completely legit weapon. They are not "overpowered". They are not "unfair" or "easy to use". Not even on close range. The usage of them requires skill, just as much as the usage of energy weapons does. You have limited ammo. You have to analyze the flight pattern of your enemy and you need to make sure you don't fire them as he charges too close in cause that'll splash damage you. Then there's the weight disadvantage you get when picking a flare over a blaster etc. etc...
If you have an issue with rockets being so "strong" in close range fights, learn to control the distance in PvP and don't blame the weapon you cannot dodge properly.
The handling of the UDV is lacking but I highly suspect that this is not intended behaviour. The developers wouldn't just cut 2 small ports and jam in 2 large ports without changing the stats if they didn't exactly want this. Tweaking the stats to fit the 2 large ports would be the first thing you think of. It seems very much like they wanted the UDV to be this sluggish in order to be not be among the top class ships.
An armor buff makes sense. Even if we gave +2500 armor to it over the +1500 suggested, as the ship will still behave as intended. It's performance will not be better, but it will give a pilot the chance to last longer in combat to bring more hits in. It's not crossing the "we don't want it to compete with Valks/Proms" line. Do it!
Or small port rockets need to be nerfed.
Or the whiners learn to dodge flares!
Honestly, I'm tired of reading this. Rockets are a completely legit weapon. They are not "overpowered". They are not "unfair" or "easy to use". Not even on close range. The usage of them requires skill, just as much as the usage of energy weapons does. You have limited ammo. You have to analyze the flight pattern of your enemy and you need to make sure you don't fire them as he charges too close in cause that'll splash damage you. Then there's the weight disadvantage you get when picking a flare over a blaster etc. etc...
If you have an issue with rockets being so "strong" in close range fights, learn to control the distance in PvP and don't blame the weapon you cannot dodge properly.
I can't comment on changes to the UDV, but I agree wth Sieger's rocket rant.
Hawkfeather, your suggestion to address the UDV's susceptibility to flares by nerfing all flares is ridiculous, plain and simple. You don't address a complaint on a particular ship with a change that affects ALL ships. Well, maybe you would. But most reasonable people wouldn't. Moving on...
Clarification: I won't mind in the slightest if flares don't get nerfed. I am reasonably proficient at both using them and dodging them as they are, and I'm not "complaining" that they are "overpowered" - I agree with Sieger that they are a perfectly fair weapon that requires skill as does any other weapon. It was a suggestion, and nothing more. The changes I suggested really would only change how they play for ships like the UDV or Cormaud that can be easily "flare juggled", making it a bit more likely that they would be able to fight back, in the hands of a skilled pilot. That's why I offered this suggestion here.
Hmm, so, feel free to continue debating. But I'm not convinced the collision profile is creating a "weakness to rockets". As I related on Bugs recently, prox-fuze weapons trigger when distance starts to increase. Since that thread, I've checked with Ray, and yes, the "distance" for a fuze is just a check to the center-point, and not the nearest point on the collision mesh (center point of the rocket, to the center point of the ship).
So, in other words, the "collision-hull profile" or shape of the Raptor has diddley squat to do with the percentage of rockets that are exploding near you.
The actual damage calculation from the explosion is done between the centerpoint of the explosion and the nearest-polygon of the ship's collision hull. But, it's a simple damage calculation that only uses that first-point (not "frontal area" of multiple points); so it's still not simple to argue that it creates a significant disadvantage for the Raptor, as it totally depends on the angle with respect to the exploding rocket. A vulture, for instance, would be at a greater disadvantage if an explosion is happening at 90-degrees off axis from the Vulture's "horizontal" plane (ie, colliding with the wing edge). Similarly, a longer-nosed vessel, like maybe even a Warthog, might actually have more damage applied in a frontal explosion.
Generally, as most rocket pilots know, defending is a lot more about avoidance than it is damage.. and in the area of avoidance, the Raptor will do just as well as any other ship.
Damage is more nuanced. It might be worse than a cent, but better than a vulture.. sometimes?
Energy hits are, of course, a different ball of wax that use the absolute most accurate collision-polygon, so the long-running debate can continue there on the viability of the Raptor. But that's not the discussion here, and it was already factored into the UDV's existing specifications.
So, in other words, the "collision-hull profile" or shape of the Raptor has diddley squat to do with the percentage of rockets that are exploding near you.
The actual damage calculation from the explosion is done between the centerpoint of the explosion and the nearest-polygon of the ship's collision hull. But, it's a simple damage calculation that only uses that first-point (not "frontal area" of multiple points); so it's still not simple to argue that it creates a significant disadvantage for the Raptor, as it totally depends on the angle with respect to the exploding rocket. A vulture, for instance, would be at a greater disadvantage if an explosion is happening at 90-degrees off axis from the Vulture's "horizontal" plane (ie, colliding with the wing edge). Similarly, a longer-nosed vessel, like maybe even a Warthog, might actually have more damage applied in a frontal explosion.
Generally, as most rocket pilots know, defending is a lot more about avoidance than it is damage.. and in the area of avoidance, the Raptor will do just as well as any other ship.
Damage is more nuanced. It might be worse than a cent, but better than a vulture.. sometimes?
Energy hits are, of course, a different ball of wax that use the absolute most accurate collision-polygon, so the long-running debate can continue there on the viability of the Raptor. But that's not the discussion here, and it was already factored into the UDV's existing specifications.
Raptors are surprisingly hard to hit with energy weapons, but a good rocket user will pwn one with no problems. Also a good rocket user will also pwn a badly flown valk, so yes. I agree that there is a tradeoff when flying a raptor.
Anyway, plod on inc! Keep doing what you are. :)
Anyway, plod on inc! Keep doing what you are. :)
Really? Then why do rockets detonate so much further away from the Corvus Marauder Mercenary and other large ships? What you described may be what you intended, but it definitely isn't what's actually happening in game. Not that I think you should change it, it makes much more sense that any part of a ship being within proximity should detonate the rocket.
Either way, the profile isn't the main issue. The main issue is the slow spinning/turning/aiming that Roda mentioned. If you get hit by a flare while fighting against a skilled opponent, chances are you won't even have time to turn back and face them before the next flare connects, and you're pretty much done for. It's true that defending against flares is more about avoidance than anything, and that's exactly what my suggestions attempt to address. Maybe a longer safety fuse is a bad idea, but I don't think it's unreasonable to increase the delay so pilots of slightly slower turning ships at least have a fighting chance. But again, if it stays how it is, I don't have any problem with that either.
Either way, the profile isn't the main issue. The main issue is the slow spinning/turning/aiming that Roda mentioned. If you get hit by a flare while fighting against a skilled opponent, chances are you won't even have time to turn back and face them before the next flare connects, and you're pretty much done for. It's true that defending against flares is more about avoidance than anything, and that's exactly what my suggestions attempt to address. Maybe a longer safety fuse is a bad idea, but I don't think it's unreasonable to increase the delay so pilots of slightly slower turning ships at least have a fighting chance. But again, if it stays how it is, I don't have any problem with that either.
Yes. I can agree that the issue is the poor spinning speed and that handicaps the overall agility by a lot. The slower the ship turns, the more milliseconds I have to think about where I'd put these rockets best. That's what makes it an easy rocket target, even when the guy only brought MegaPosis for minimum weight.
What I said still stands. The devs didn't seem all to much like buffing anything about it last time somebody suggested it, though I deem it well needed. Making the Raptor more agile/giving it more armor would make it a great ship and still it would not be on par with what a Valkyrie X1 or a SCP can do for you in combat.
I'll +1 it again!
What I said still stands. The devs didn't seem all to much like buffing anything about it last time somebody suggested it, though I deem it well needed. Making the Raptor more agile/giving it more armor would make it a great ship and still it would not be on par with what a Valkyrie X1 or a SCP can do for you in combat.
I'll +1 it again!
I'm not sure the problem is even spin torque, it is more about the ships mass distribution. It is back-heavy, so when it does get hit by a flare, it spins like a top.
But I digress, I do not see a reason to not give it a small armour buff.
+1
But I digress, I do not see a reason to not give it a small armour buff.
+1
Raptor UDV bumped today, to 12,000 armor.
Thank you for the update, incarnate. I'm sure it will make the UDV last a little longer.
I put the UDV Raptor to a test tonight. I fought 6 different pilots in various setups. A total of 10 fights was fought of which the UDV managed to win most. That's a very good result and shows the update did the ship good as it is more forgiving of hits now. Although I think that this quota appears to be much better than it is. Why this is so is explained down below. I flew an UDV Raptor with dual Mega Positron Blasters in all of those fights, so the report should represent the lightest possible way to fly the UDV.
Fights against the Corvus Vulturius:
Here the Raptor UDV already showed its first weaknesses. This may not be a 100% representative because I only fought 2 Corvults, but it seemed whenever I got in close, I was at large disadvantage because even with MegaPosis, the UDV Raptor turns like a brick. However, when I kept my distance and turned off the Auto Aim, I could get in intensive hits and since the Corvult's armor is thin, they fell to the UDV anyway. But as it stands, impatient pilots or people with a fighting style that involves getting close will be at a poor position.
Fights against the Corvus Marauder Mercenary:
Against the Cormaud, the Raptor UDV seems to handle nicely. All pilots approached me with sunflare rockets and got in the occassional hit, but since the Cormaud gets clumsy with flares, I managed to keep my nose towards them and took them out fairly well. The UDV lost no fight against a Cormaud.
Fight against the Serco SkyCommand Prometheus:
I also felt like taking on a tough match tonight, so I challenged a SCP. The first half of the fight was magnificent as I managed to keep my distance and bring in awesome MP snipes from a distance so that I stood at 100% against a SCP at 57%. I felt all too safe so I got in close and the true weakness of the UDV showed again. Within milliseconds the SCP pilot emptied his flare tubes and gat on the poor UDV, making it explode. Dodging the flares was nearly impossible, as the sluggish turning of the UDV allowed for no proper flare recovery.
The UDV couldn't make it through this test. A rematch didn't happen as the pilot I fought seemed to have logged off. I would have loved to try a more defensive method to see if it is possible at all for the UDV to crack a SCP.
Fight against the Warthog MklV:
The UDV did a reliable job here. Except for eating some gat and flares, I survived this fight at around 65% of my health, taking the Warthog Mk4 out with distant MP shots.
Conclusion:
Through this update, the Raptor UDV has indeed gotten a better choice for PvP. However, it has a ways to go in my opinion, despite all the many tweaks it has seen. It fights reliably against a variety of ships if you keep your distance. However, it is still helpless when it comes to fighting SCPs and (probably) Valks. While this may be intended (as the ship is not supposed to be on par with a Valk or a Prom), I still believe that it is horrible that you cannot get close with this ship at all without risking half your armor. This is caused by the slow spinning/the bad turning/whatever expert-word there is for it. If you'd ever consider it, I would propose a last tweak:
And that would make it turn a BIT faster at the very least...
I put the UDV Raptor to a test tonight. I fought 6 different pilots in various setups. A total of 10 fights was fought of which the UDV managed to win most. That's a very good result and shows the update did the ship good as it is more forgiving of hits now. Although I think that this quota appears to be much better than it is. Why this is so is explained down below. I flew an UDV Raptor with dual Mega Positron Blasters in all of those fights, so the report should represent the lightest possible way to fly the UDV.
Fights against the Corvus Vulturius:
Here the Raptor UDV already showed its first weaknesses. This may not be a 100% representative because I only fought 2 Corvults, but it seemed whenever I got in close, I was at large disadvantage because even with MegaPosis, the UDV Raptor turns like a brick. However, when I kept my distance and turned off the Auto Aim, I could get in intensive hits and since the Corvult's armor is thin, they fell to the UDV anyway. But as it stands, impatient pilots or people with a fighting style that involves getting close will be at a poor position.
Fights against the Corvus Marauder Mercenary:
Against the Cormaud, the Raptor UDV seems to handle nicely. All pilots approached me with sunflare rockets and got in the occassional hit, but since the Cormaud gets clumsy with flares, I managed to keep my nose towards them and took them out fairly well. The UDV lost no fight against a Cormaud.
Fight against the Serco SkyCommand Prometheus:
I also felt like taking on a tough match tonight, so I challenged a SCP. The first half of the fight was magnificent as I managed to keep my distance and bring in awesome MP snipes from a distance so that I stood at 100% against a SCP at 57%. I felt all too safe so I got in close and the true weakness of the UDV showed again. Within milliseconds the SCP pilot emptied his flare tubes and gat on the poor UDV, making it explode. Dodging the flares was nearly impossible, as the sluggish turning of the UDV allowed for no proper flare recovery.
The UDV couldn't make it through this test. A rematch didn't happen as the pilot I fought seemed to have logged off. I would have loved to try a more defensive method to see if it is possible at all for the UDV to crack a SCP.
Fight against the Warthog MklV:
The UDV did a reliable job here. Except for eating some gat and flares, I survived this fight at around 65% of my health, taking the Warthog Mk4 out with distant MP shots.
Conclusion:
Through this update, the Raptor UDV has indeed gotten a better choice for PvP. However, it has a ways to go in my opinion, despite all the many tweaks it has seen. It fights reliably against a variety of ships if you keep your distance. However, it is still helpless when it comes to fighting SCPs and (probably) Valks. While this may be intended (as the ship is not supposed to be on par with a Valk or a Prom), I still believe that it is horrible that you cannot get close with this ship at all without risking half your armor. This is caused by the slow spinning/the bad turning/whatever expert-word there is for it. If you'd ever consider it, I would propose a last tweak:
And that would make it turn a BIT faster at the very least...