https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/skrolli-a-printed-computer-culture-magazine#/

The above is something I am probably going to support, and this is exactly the target audience for a vo subscription while that is still the business model.

I had considered doing my own advertisement at the $200 tier (to support the effort and for amusement) for Family Galactic Travel, and VO by extension, but I figured you guys might want to formally target and support this, or the community might want to contribute with me for a larger advert on a higher tier and let Guild Software do an official advertisement.

If other people want to target an ad, for our benefit, that's fine by me? (and appreciated)

But, I'm not really spending money on much, right now.

Okay. If anyone wants to join me, even nickle and diming it to try to reach the $400 tier, chime in here. This is probably the best exposure we can get to a worldwide English speaking hacker/programmer type audience.

Number of impressions may not be the highest, but I still have early 2000's magazines that I flip through for nostalgia, so we'll get a lot of repeated exposures and possibly a few new subscriptions since anyone getting this magazine has disposable income, and is more likely to appreciate the game for what it is.

Also, if nobody helps me, I'll probably do something ridiculous but not distasteful, but as I think about this it would be kind of cool to put together a larger presentation full of more diverse and memorable levels of ridiculousness.

Alternatively, if $200 gets us our pirate faction and stations faster, I'm happy to contribute to GS instead.

I'll design an ad, especially if its FGT themed but happy to also design one for VO. We can get it approved for copyreicht (giggle) purposes here as long as incarnate is happy.

Also, if nobody helps me, I'll probably do something ridiculous but not distasteful

I do want to sign off on any content that advertises us.

I do want to sign off on any content that advertises us.

lol And I want, just once, for a clinical-stage biotech investment to take a swing at PanCan and not fail.

Brave new worlds of IP law: does fair use cover non-commercial advertisements by enthusiasts for commercial enterprises without marketing budgets? Is there any trademark protection when it's your own product being pushed in the marketplace, rather than a competitor's? At least in Europe, there's some inherent right to control one's "art," which might be more helpful in this relatively unusual context.

How would it be a non commercial use, the ads primary purpose would be to generate business. As to trademark protection my non-expert non-legal laypersons opinion is that incarnate hasnt registered his trademark internationally so as far as my local laws are concerned I can do what I want.

However, also in my non-expert non-legal laypersons opinion if it was registered here and we ran the ad it appears it would be an indictable offence and I hate to think of what happens under US law where (I didn't check but) it probably is registered. If it isn't then his logo will only have copyright protection, why would you say that it is fair use?

So incarnate will need to sign off on VO styled ads but not the FGT ones since we have the graphic artists permission to design all manner of awesomeness with that art.

Joe Blow taking out an ad to generate business for VO, an entity in which the person paying for the ad has no legally-cognizable interest, is a non-commercial use...because while Mr. Blow may get joy out of promoting his favorite game, he's not benefiting commercially. See also: https://copyright.columbia.edu/basics/fair-use.html http://fairuse.stanford.edu/overview/fair-use/four-factors/ Interestingly, the fact that it's an earnest promotion of VO - rather than say an ad parodying VO and casting it in a negative light - could be said to cut against fair use...though I would argue that an earnest, non-commercial promotion of something would be the very definition of an educational use.

Regardless of TM registration, basically every TM cause of action has at its root potential confusion between product A and product B. Here, there's no product B - it's just the weird (from IP law's perspective, which focuses in the US pretty much exclusively on commercial interests in IP rather than moral interests) case of a third party using, say, the VO name and logo to promote VO itself.

Maybe some kind of common law (or possibly TM) action for tarnishment would fly, and I doubt anyone is going to make an issue out of it anyway, but it's an interesting legal question as to whether commercial entities have any right to stop fans from promoting the entity, gratis, using the entity's own IP.

We don't have fair use in Australia, we have limited 'fair dealing' exceptions and none of them would apply. If it's for a commercial purpose, it's commercial, regardless of the beneficiary and in this case there's no doubt it's not a parody.

Actually that's an interesting quirk isn't it - incarnate wants to sign off on the artwork but again in my non-expert non-legal laypersons opinion if Savet was to produce a parody advertisement he might fall under fair use and there's no recourse that Incarnate would have to actually prevent or claim against the ad.

"Regardless of TM registration, basically every TM cause of action has at its root potential confusion between product A and product B."

I looked into this and in my non-expert non-legal layperson opinion it seems that there is a civil defence even under our cause of action for passing off that if the use of the trademark is not likely to cause confusion then there's no infringement.

There's no doubt that here there's an indictable offence but that doesn't give much recourse to a company that wants to control free advertising being provided by random individuals.

"Maybe some kind of common law (or possibly TM) action for tarnishment would fly"

Not if I design the ad it wouldn't!

I'm afraid to see what your expert legal professional opinion is.

Commercial purpose is arguable, even in the context we're discussing though: Joe Blow's purpose is to promote VO. That's a commercial entity, but one could make a pretty convincing argument that Mr. Blow's interest, and therefore his and his ad's purpose, are purely non-commercial.

Anyway, it's completely normal for IP owners to want maximum control. It's also completely normal for the law to maybe (probably) not cover everything their little hearts may desire, but for everyone involved to pretend it does because who wants to fight over this stuff.

And as our ships-passing-in-the-night terminology is demonstrating rather aptly, all semblance of intelligent discussion goes out the door when two different sovereign legal systems covering the same subject matter are in play. Basically, none of this matters any more than an RP thread :)

This is all very interesting. Regardless of whether it's fair use or not, I have no problem giving Inc the opportunity to object if he feels something casts vo negatively.

The magazine has a similar policy for acceptable ads.

My plan is to put together a job listing with a few rediculous requirements, and a disclaimer that the advertisement is the work/opinion of the family galvanic travel guild and not officially endorsed by vendetta online.

If we can get a larger slot, I'd love to put together a listing of jobs for various guilds, casting each favorably in their roleplay, but with humorous verbiage, with the disclaimer that it is work/opinion of guild members etc etc.

"Basically, none of this matters any more than an RP thread :)"

Agreed.

"I'm afraid to see what your expert legal professional opinion is."

I do not have one, will never have one, am not a legal professional, expert or otherwise and have never nor will ever have a professional opinion or be a legal practitioner ever.

And as our ships-passing-in-the-night terminology is demonstrating rather aptly, all semblance of intelligent discussion goes out the door when two different sovereign legal systems covering the same subject matter are in play.

Except that if you google this topic, all our politicians discussing it do so with express reference to the US system and often just pull the same legal developments into our jurisdiction from the US, and we're not the only ones. They also talk about US cases in new areas being 'persuasive' despite their status as non-binding. When it comes to IP law the US are absurdly successful legal imperialists.

I like Savet's ideas, they would be pretty hilarious.

I do want to sign off on any content that advertises us.

Er, yeah. All I was expressing above, was a desire to see and hopefully have some influence on content that is intended to advertise us (I phrased it tersely, only because I've been really busy trying to get the newsletter out on time).

After all, someone using an ad they find "funny", but someone else finds offensive, which then blows up on Twitter (or taps into some existing, sensitive issue) and is represented as coming officially from our company.. that could be really damaging to the game/company/etc. Regardless of "legality", it could hurt us really badly.

And we don't have the finances to buy a big enough megaphone to tell people it wasn't us, so that kind of negativity could follow us forever. This kind of stuff does happen, even to people I know.

I think the original goal here was just to support VO with positive outreach in this way? So, yeah, just asking for the opportunity to give feedback.

I'm a pretty big proponent of fair use in general, and parody usage specifically. I didn't think my request went anywhere near there.. but.. ok..

We're on the same page Inc. I understand completely, and would have given you the opportunity to do so here on the thread even if you hadn't requested.

I think the original goal here was just to support VO with positive outreach in this way? So, yeah, just asking for the opportunity to give feedback.

I'm a pretty big proponent of fair use in general, and parody usage specifically. I didn't think my request went anywhere near there.. but.. ok..

We are all on the same page here, but it's fun (and possibly important) to contemplate whether or not you actually have legal avenues to do so. As lecter points out the law doesn't really contemplate some of the scenarios that it perhaps should or that digital businesses would like it to contemplate. The internet breaks IP law in all sorts of weird ways.

It would be funny to do an ad but I'm not sure the mag you've suggested is going to be worth it for the money.

It's a magazine reprint of a nostalgic type of print publication. The type of publication that use to actually provide exposure to new subjects. The type of reader that buys this is going to keep this in his bathroom, or on his coffee table, or somewhere he can read and reread it. Because he sure as hell isn't throwing away a $20 magazine.

We could get a wider audience with other magazines, but we'd have to overcome the advertisement saturation. But more importantly, I want to support this magazine and this is a good way to also give some exposure to our game to users who may find our game and community appealing.

Okay mate, I'll put 20 USD in on the proviso that we meet our $200 goal, so we only need 8 other people assuming you contribute the same.

Some of you may remember my previous advertisements on the subject of FGT: