As requested by Inc, here is my thread of how I would like to throw money at things.

I enjoy playing VO, but there are a lot of things I don't want to do. I would rather throw money at the things I don't like to do. I don't like hauling. I don't like mining.

I don't want to figure out where/how to get a milisieporun aggregator. I want a way to buy one in-game so I can go back to the activities I enjoy.

I don't want to mine and haul 2,000 CU of Ferric ore. I want a way to buy it in-game at a station.

The crystal system would work for the above. If you implemented the crystal system I could buy 1000 crystals and use them to buy things I don't want to go find. If I have a monthly subscription, make the crystal cost lower.

You could also generate X crystals with every monthly subscription. Eventually, just replace the subscription with crystal purchases once you find an appropriate conversion rate. Start by making everything overly expensive. We are where we are with credits because they are easier to acquire than use. If I want to bypass part of the grind I don't enjoy, start high and lower it if it proves too expensive.

Also, I don't wholly agree that our player base would object to an A/B model for gathering metrics, so long as said model wasn't game breaking in its delta.

"Start by making everything overly expensive. We are where we are with credits because they are easier to acquire than use. If I want to bypass part of the grind I don't enjoy, start high and lower it if it proves too expensive."

This imo is critical. If someone wants to pay $499 usd for a fully made trident (I think this price is low) I'm happy to see that money go to GS. Chances are that player won't be around for more than a year anyway.

Also to add to this, I don't like building new characters, except on the rare occasions when I want to see how the progression has changed. I'd gladly throw $10 or $20 for a blank character with all licenses of around 8. Or maybe base the price on the license level. I think the account should have one character that has been developed by the player at least to the license they want to buy the new character at.

yep yep this pay 2 win debate again.

Know what had things I was willing to throw money at? Your KS list. Would I throw $10k at you again (Inc.'s email reaction was priceless, btw, I still have it somewhere) just for a persistent NPC named *Dr. Lecter, outside the context of a KS campaign? No, but it'd still be worth something to me that might be enough to make it worth your while. So, stuff you guys listed in connection with the KS campaign might be a good place to start?

Also agree with the viability of the $ for time stuff Savet and DF mention, though that really gets into the 'pay to win' vs. 'pay to avoid grind' debate.

Rather than flat-out using crystal to buy the things Savet mentions, I think a better system would be some sort of crystal bartering system for goods/services from other players (crystal auction house?). That way Savet could buy crystal with real money, then trade it to a free-to-play player who does those things on Savet's behalf. So instead of completely eliminating the grind, it would just be transferred to a different player who is happy to do it in order to earn the crystal.

It also has the benefit of giving the f2p crowd a means to earn crystal by doing grindy tasks in-game, provided that they can find a player willing to shell out real money for the services.

Why use crystal at all? We have a currency in place called "credits". I'll never understand the crystals. As it is now, I have the credits to buy a valk but I don't have the necessary faction permissions or license levels.

What do crystals do again?

Credits can only be obtained by performing in-game actions, primarily from completing missions, selling items to stations, or obtaining them from other players.

Crystals are obtained primarily by giving real-life currency to Guild Software. They can also be obtained to a limited extent from in-game actions that cap the amount you can earn per day or week or whatever. I haven't actually ever used crystals, nor do I have any interest in a f2p payment model, so my knowledge on the subject may be a bit incomplete. I think that f2p players use crystals to buy higher end equipment that they otherwise wouldn't be able to use.

So what you have then is players like Savet, who is willing to open his wallet to avoid doing menial tasks, that are complimented by mobile players, who perhaps while unwilling to spend a dime on the game, have no compulsion against spending hours grinding if it will earn them some crystals.

What I dislike about Savet's original suggestion (buying stuff with crystal directly from a station) is that the items magic themselves into existence from out of thin air, which negatively impacts being able to create scarcity in a player driven economy. With my counter-suggestion (allowing players to trade crystal with other players to obtain those items instead), the grind isn't eliminated, merely transferred to another player. And items being traded would still be generated by the normal means, whether by manufacturing, or from bot drops, or whatever.

Conversely, it also provides a means for mobile players to earn crystal through in-game actions without the [daily?] limits. The key here is that the crystal earned isn't magically poofed into existence either, as someone will ultimately be paying for it with hard currency.

I guess the potential danger here comes from players exploiting ways to earn crystal that don't involve sending money to Guild Software, like creating a bunch of free accounts to get around the daily limits, or something. By allowing crystal trading, one exploiter could be feeding the crystal "fix" for a multitude of other players.

I really like meridian's ideas; the part about transferring the "grind" to those willing to grind for it imho is critical. I would pay for the ability to post a mission with a crystal reward for a F2Per to bring certain items to me. If this is too difficult, I would pay for a type of crystal that I could transfer to other players while I was in-game, but this would be less useful.

I guess the potential danger here comes from players exploiting ways to earn crystal that don't involve sending money to Guild Software, like creating a bunch of free accounts to get around the daily limits, or something. By allowing crystal trading, one exploiter could be feeding the crystal "fix" for a multitude of other players.

It may sound hokey, but you could get around this by having a different color crystal, say, purple crystal, that can only be purchased, and never given out by the game. I would (armchair economist) actually make this type of crystal at least twice as expensive as regular crystal; you are using it to "pull" F2P pilots to do your nefarious bidding by making it transferable: that's worth a lot.

Whenever purple crystal is transferred to another (F2P) player, it becomes green crystal. That way, you avoid the problem of crystal farming since purple crystal must be purchased (although F2P pilots may earn it from other players).

If a F2P pilot purchased purple crystal (alternately, you could limit it to subscribed players only to make things less confusing) or a subscribed player became F2P, their purple crystal stock could be used in place of green crystal, but not before their green crystal ran out.

I've been mulling this over for a couple days and I considered not posting it as, quite honestly, I'd be happy with the devs doing whatever they need to survive/create a comfortable revenue stream. I'm basically with Pizzasgood on the F2P/P2W spectrum (strongly averted to the idea of cash for in-game advantages), but I thought meridian's idea of transference vs. effort reduction was an important one, economically speaking.

Vendetta has evolved for such as long time (relatively) and the market has evolved also; I tend to be pleasantly surprised when I drop all expectation of 'what's going to happen'.

My concern would be pirates demanding purple crystal for their safe passage payment as opposed to credits. If the crystal could be used to purchase subscription time as mentioned in another ongoing post, pirates would get to play subscribed for free. But, I guess we have the choice whether or not to pay them.

If we could cash out crystal, some of us could make some additional income playing VO. There should be a transaction free for cashing out or purchasing this special crystal, though, so Guild Software gets a cut. Or, we could call them Vendetta or Guild Dollars. Second life has Linden Dollars that you can buy and sell and people used to make money on Second Life.

biretak, what's good for the goose is good for the gander; if it is acceptable to pay F2P traders for their services with purple crystal, then it is equally acceptable to pay F2P pirates for their "services" with purple crystal. And if it's acceptable to give purple crystal to F2Pers, I see no reason it shouldn't be acceptable to give it to subscribers, even if the subscribers can't use it directly.

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I do find this more tolerable than letting people purchase items outright for the reasons meridian said. Not much more tolerable though. I prefer systems that establish a level playing field at an accessible cost, and then offer discounted ways to play in exchange for foregoing aspects of the full game, with options to selectively purchase temporary access to those aspects without having to commit to the full experience. In other words, how it already works (though there is room for improvement, obviously). That sort of system only gives extra power to those who can afford the subscription, which isn't saying much as long as the subscription is reasonable. People with more money to burn can only get minor advantages (additional accounts, guild websites, etc.).

This purple crystal system, on the other hand, greatly increases the amount of advantage real-world wealth provides by letting it be used to manipulate other players, which is completely inappropriate.

Why not a better and more RP justifiable system where you pay NPCs credits or crystal to do your dirty work?

a simpler method to "purple crystal abuse" would be to make them only transferable while docked in stations, don't even show the amount you have in space. That way the only way to abuse it would be station camping, which is generally fairly public when a it happens to a newb.

Sometimes I like to grab a hand full of pennies and throw the money at the things.

I see two things here. Currencies and permissions. Do we really need two currencies that only further complicate things when you can have permissions do this?

I liked the lite .99 account as it was a stop-gap between F2P and full sub. However i hear the lite account needs crystal too?

Maybe i'm too old for this F2P crowd.

Yes, the lite account needs crystal too. But it is still a good stop gap as it does open up the world of PC play for VO (and for a very very cheap price too). I do agree that more currencies may just muddy the already murky F2P system though, even if they are not just aimed at F2P and required for some things by full subs too.

[edit]

Maybe this thread and https://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/3/30833 should be merged? They both cover the same topic, but the latter already has dev feedback on the subject.