Forums » Suggestions
"No. I am opposed to PK farming, so why would I help you do it? If you want to copy Sieger and give us all yet another reason to make fun of you, you'll have to figure it out yourself."
I am too. Apparently you're too stupid to catch my sarcasm.
"I don't need to take anything up with GS. I don't buy Apple products, so the problems inherent in Apple products do not impact me. You are the one complaining about them. And if Apple's restrictions bother you, Apple is the one you should complain to, not Guild Software. Guild supporting iOS is no different from Guild supporting a cheap crappy mouse or trackpad. Maybe they should only support high-end joysticks and gaming mice, or alternately they should disable the additional axes and buttons that such devices provide. Because fairnesssss. (That was sarcasm. GS should do no such thing. Having options is great.)"
So your argument is that you don't like Apple? Who the fuck cares Rin.
"Plugins are just another part of the game. It might not fit some people's definition of "online space fighter", but that doesn't change the fact that plugins are a part of the game, just like piracy, station conquest, mining, trade, manufacturing, politics, etc. You don't have to be good at it. You don't even have to bother with it at all. I do not mine or manufacture. I ignore that aspect of the game. You are free to ignore plugin development. Doing so may come at a cost, but oh well. You don't see me putting around in a Trident -- that is the consequence of my ignoring manufacturing."
Again, i'm not against plugins. I'm in support of a Guild Software curated/centralized repository plugin shop. Which is in part due to the lack of support for iOS but also the nefarious code that lead us to this thread and the TGFT Utilities debacle, along with many other shitshows in the past and the future.
"while most other people can indeed learn Lua, is that really something that should be expected of people who just want to play a silly game on level playing field? "
"They don't need to program to play on a level playing field. People like oRe like to rant and rave about secret private plugins that make a huge difference, but that's a load of bull."
Full disclosure, we just found out about this targeting mines thing in ARFs plugin a few days ago. Does that make us stupid? Is that what you're going for? You guys have been doing this for years, how is this a level playing field?
Should we know where to find this shit on the internet? Shouldn't there be a central location for this?
I am too. Apparently you're too stupid to catch my sarcasm.
"I don't need to take anything up with GS. I don't buy Apple products, so the problems inherent in Apple products do not impact me. You are the one complaining about them. And if Apple's restrictions bother you, Apple is the one you should complain to, not Guild Software. Guild supporting iOS is no different from Guild supporting a cheap crappy mouse or trackpad. Maybe they should only support high-end joysticks and gaming mice, or alternately they should disable the additional axes and buttons that such devices provide. Because fairnesssss. (That was sarcasm. GS should do no such thing. Having options is great.)"
So your argument is that you don't like Apple? Who the fuck cares Rin.
"Plugins are just another part of the game. It might not fit some people's definition of "online space fighter", but that doesn't change the fact that plugins are a part of the game, just like piracy, station conquest, mining, trade, manufacturing, politics, etc. You don't have to be good at it. You don't even have to bother with it at all. I do not mine or manufacture. I ignore that aspect of the game. You are free to ignore plugin development. Doing so may come at a cost, but oh well. You don't see me putting around in a Trident -- that is the consequence of my ignoring manufacturing."
Again, i'm not against plugins. I'm in support of a Guild Software curated/centralized repository plugin shop. Which is in part due to the lack of support for iOS but also the nefarious code that lead us to this thread and the TGFT Utilities debacle, along with many other shitshows in the past and the future.
"while most other people can indeed learn Lua, is that really something that should be expected of people who just want to play a silly game on level playing field? "
"They don't need to program to play on a level playing field. People like oRe like to rant and rave about secret private plugins that make a huge difference, but that's a load of bull."
Full disclosure, we just found out about this targeting mines thing in ARFs plugin a few days ago. Does that make us stupid? Is that what you're going for? You guys have been doing this for years, how is this a level playing field?
Should we know where to find this shit on the internet? Shouldn't there be a central location for this?
"It cannot give you an advantage in combat at all. Maybe make you more aware, sure. Maybe make targeting easier, sure. Hell, you can even make a plugin and tote it as "just a trade guide" and let it spy on your enemies without honest users knowing (whether this is the right way to do things is for another thread), sure.
No combat advantages can be had. So you are correct."
See tarenty's post:
"Can't believe myself agreeing with Dirty Ore, but I'll +1 this. Remove the ability to shoot by plugin too. That suggestion should probably be an individual thread."
First of all, there is more to the game than combat and you CAN gain advantages on many levels, including combat, trading, mining, situational awareness etc.
Yer full of shit Yoda.
Here is a list of combat related plugins:
TurretHop
TargetTools
Chainfire
Stackorator
etc. <-- this. This is the unknown. I don't know these plugins because i'm not in your circle of merry fuckups. Hell, i bet Incarnate doesn't know about these plugins.
#LUAGONEWILD
No combat advantages can be had. So you are correct."
See tarenty's post:
"Can't believe myself agreeing with Dirty Ore, but I'll +1 this. Remove the ability to shoot by plugin too. That suggestion should probably be an individual thread."
First of all, there is more to the game than combat and you CAN gain advantages on many levels, including combat, trading, mining, situational awareness etc.
Yer full of shit Yoda.
Here is a list of combat related plugins:
TurretHop
TargetTools
Chainfire
Stackorator
etc. <-- this. This is the unknown. I don't know these plugins because i'm not in your circle of merry fuckups. Hell, i bet Incarnate doesn't know about these plugins.
#LUAGONEWILD
Your argument is about stuff you don't know? God, what a surprise. lol.
I don't know all of the combat maneuvers that Nahin can do. Maybe we should set up a repository where people record their maneuvers and are not allowed to use them until they are in that repository. Developing new maneuvers must be done on the test server where they won't unfairly compete with less skilled people.
Information on asteroid contents should be stored in a central database. You should be forbidden from mining an asteroid unless that asteroid's contents are in the database. Because otherwise it is unfair that people scan a lot of asteroids and make their own databases, or just remember where useful asteroids are. How do I know what asteroids you've found? There's no way. You might have found some secret asteroids that are so far from the sector center that they cannot be seen unless you approach them for a while. Not everybody has the time, dedication, and spatial sense to search huge swaths of the many thousands of sectors in this game for such hidden roids. That knowledge needs to be made public and enforced!
The ability to program is a skill. It is not a necessary skill, but it is helpful. Just like all the other skills involved in this game. It can be abused as well, but that's no reason to over-regulate it. I can abuse my ability to chat in order to spew profanity, or cause psychological problems to sensitive individuals. I could even say things that are illegal to say, using Guild's software to break the law. Do we need to have every chat message reviewed by a moderator before being made visible in the game? No.
You are making things out to be a much bigger problem than they are.
"So your argument is that you don't like Apple? Who the fuck cares Rin."
No, that is not my argument. You are being deliberately obtuse.
Information on asteroid contents should be stored in a central database. You should be forbidden from mining an asteroid unless that asteroid's contents are in the database. Because otherwise it is unfair that people scan a lot of asteroids and make their own databases, or just remember where useful asteroids are. How do I know what asteroids you've found? There's no way. You might have found some secret asteroids that are so far from the sector center that they cannot be seen unless you approach them for a while. Not everybody has the time, dedication, and spatial sense to search huge swaths of the many thousands of sectors in this game for such hidden roids. That knowledge needs to be made public and enforced!
The ability to program is a skill. It is not a necessary skill, but it is helpful. Just like all the other skills involved in this game. It can be abused as well, but that's no reason to over-regulate it. I can abuse my ability to chat in order to spew profanity, or cause psychological problems to sensitive individuals. I could even say things that are illegal to say, using Guild's software to break the law. Do we need to have every chat message reviewed by a moderator before being made visible in the game? No.
You are making things out to be a much bigger problem than they are.
"So your argument is that you don't like Apple? Who the fuck cares Rin."
No, that is not my argument. You are being deliberately obtuse.
"No, that is not my argument. You are being deliberately obtuse."
And your ability to write ambiguously with zero point for many long paragraphs is astounding. You must like the sound of your voice. Imagine if there was more depth to all those words other than "I am butthurt, please don't take my scripting-kiddy fun away!"
And your ability to write ambiguously with zero point for many long paragraphs is astounding. You must like the sound of your voice. Imagine if there was more depth to all those words other than "I am butthurt, please don't take my scripting-kiddy fun away!"
Why would I be butthurt? I'm not the one complaining about things -- that's you. I am fine with the status quo. You are the one upset about it. You are the one asking for change. And you are the one being ignored. The plugin system is not going to change into the dystopian nonsense you keep pushing. So I have nothing to be butthurt about.
"Why would I be butthurt? I'm not the one complaining about things -- that's you. I am fine with the status quo. You are the one upset about it. You are the one asking for change. And you are the one being ignored. The plugin system is not going to change into the dystopian nonsense you keep pushing. So I have nothing to be butthurt about."
How is a suggestion a complaint? Why are you so afraid of change? I suggested here and in another thread that the game needs a centralized plugin repository to ensure the code running is vetted and not conflicting with the ethos and spirit of the game, as well as even the playing field to some degree across all platforms and group/guilds.
Hell, I'd rather pay .99 for a plugin that stacks avalons or chainfires then for a bag of crystals whose value is vague at best. Im sure the devs could monetize it and give kickbacks to the authors.
The plugin system has to change or it'll continue to be a burden to Guild as they try to offer more mobile ports in the same environment as PC users.
How is a suggestion a complaint? Why are you so afraid of change? I suggested here and in another thread that the game needs a centralized plugin repository to ensure the code running is vetted and not conflicting with the ethos and spirit of the game, as well as even the playing field to some degree across all platforms and group/guilds.
Hell, I'd rather pay .99 for a plugin that stacks avalons or chainfires then for a bag of crystals whose value is vague at best. Im sure the devs could monetize it and give kickbacks to the authors.
The plugin system has to change or it'll continue to be a burden to Guild as they try to offer more mobile ports in the same environment as PC users.
What the fuck is all this? You guys generated so much drama in the past two days I'm backlogged for hours reading this shit; you should all feel terrible for putting me through this.
Hell, I'd rather pay .99 for a plugin that stacks avalons or chainfires then for a bag of crystals whose value is vague at best.
I'd pay for the dev time to remove all necessary lua access required for those plugins :P
I'd pay for the dev time to remove all necessary lua access required for those plugins :P
I'm totally fine with an official central plugin repository with an easier way to install the plugins, especially on mobile. No problem at all with that. I'm not even opposed to having plugins on that repository be vetted before they become visible, with perhaps a summary of any actions the plugin may perform to keep users informed. I do have a small objection to requiring people to use a central public repository, whether vetted or not. This is because there's nothing inherently wrong with private plugins. This is a skill based game, and programming is a skill. It is no more unfair for people who've developed that skill to have a small advantage than it is for people who've developed skills at politics, publicity, or logistics to have small advantages.
But that's only a small objection; I personally am a big fan of the open-source movement, so while I think forcing all plugins to be public would be dumbing the game down a little, it wouldn't really impact me directly. What I do have a big objection to is your push for requiring people to use a central repository in conjunction with requiring plugins on that repository to be vetted. Mainly due to the significant delays that would be inherent in such a system, along with the implication that all testing would have to be done on the test server. That requirement might sound reasonable, but it isn't. Sure, anything that could be disruptive if it's buggy should be tested on the test server first, but once those sorts of issues are resolved, further testing must happen in a real-world environment. Otherwise bugs will be missed. Requiring all testing to be done on the test server would result in buggier software upon initial release, and then due to the vetting requirement it would also take longer to get the fixes to those initial bugs approved -- and if it turns out there are edge cases where the fix did not fully solve the problem, you'd have to go through all those delays again. Having to deal with all that nonsense would also discourage more people from even trying to make plugins in the first place. Setting up and managing the system would also impose more burden on the devs (even if it's largely community moderated), detracting from actual development -- probably by a lot more than resetting the occasional slimeball's PK count does.
And all that for what? The overwhelming majority of plugins are not objectionable. It's really more a matter of how the plugin is used than what the plugin does that is the problem. For example, I don't have an objection to a plugin that can detect when a ship is within 1000 m, enter a turret, and start firing missiles. As far as I'm concerned, that should be built-in functionality. Nor do I have a problem with shop bots (as long as they aren't spammy) which automatically undock with your order and explode. And I don't have a problem with plugins like Ferryman that send a hail and money to anybody I kill. But those three plugins can be used together to create a PK grinder: Set up the shop at a conquerable station, then put the auto-turret and kill-hail plugins on a trident parked outside and set the kill-hail message to something like "buy 1 government blaster" or whatever format the shop-bot takes. Place the first order by hand to start the feedback loop. Presto.
Plugins are not the problem here. People with attitudes like Sieger's are the problem. Requiring plugins to be public and vetted won't make a difference. It will just annoy all of the innocent people. The bad eggs will just find ways around it, whether by being creative or by using external software.
If you just wanted a centralized official repo so that everything can be made easier, then yeah, I'd be all for that. But I'm not about to agree to the unjustified bureaucratic mess you're trying to push.
But that's only a small objection; I personally am a big fan of the open-source movement, so while I think forcing all plugins to be public would be dumbing the game down a little, it wouldn't really impact me directly. What I do have a big objection to is your push for requiring people to use a central repository in conjunction with requiring plugins on that repository to be vetted. Mainly due to the significant delays that would be inherent in such a system, along with the implication that all testing would have to be done on the test server. That requirement might sound reasonable, but it isn't. Sure, anything that could be disruptive if it's buggy should be tested on the test server first, but once those sorts of issues are resolved, further testing must happen in a real-world environment. Otherwise bugs will be missed. Requiring all testing to be done on the test server would result in buggier software upon initial release, and then due to the vetting requirement it would also take longer to get the fixes to those initial bugs approved -- and if it turns out there are edge cases where the fix did not fully solve the problem, you'd have to go through all those delays again. Having to deal with all that nonsense would also discourage more people from even trying to make plugins in the first place. Setting up and managing the system would also impose more burden on the devs (even if it's largely community moderated), detracting from actual development -- probably by a lot more than resetting the occasional slimeball's PK count does.
And all that for what? The overwhelming majority of plugins are not objectionable. It's really more a matter of how the plugin is used than what the plugin does that is the problem. For example, I don't have an objection to a plugin that can detect when a ship is within 1000 m, enter a turret, and start firing missiles. As far as I'm concerned, that should be built-in functionality. Nor do I have a problem with shop bots (as long as they aren't spammy) which automatically undock with your order and explode. And I don't have a problem with plugins like Ferryman that send a hail and money to anybody I kill. But those three plugins can be used together to create a PK grinder: Set up the shop at a conquerable station, then put the auto-turret and kill-hail plugins on a trident parked outside and set the kill-hail message to something like "buy 1 government blaster" or whatever format the shop-bot takes. Place the first order by hand to start the feedback loop. Presto.
Plugins are not the problem here. People with attitudes like Sieger's are the problem. Requiring plugins to be public and vetted won't make a difference. It will just annoy all of the innocent people. The bad eggs will just find ways around it, whether by being creative or by using external software.
If you just wanted a centralized official repo so that everything can be made easier, then yeah, I'd be all for that. But I'm not about to agree to the unjustified bureaucratic mess you're trying to push.
spidey i'm more annoyed that this discussion is happening in a totally unrelated thread and will as a result be lost forever when it descends into forum history... ore and pizzasgood might as well be talking to themselves underwater.
"This is because there's nothing inherently wrong with private plugins."
Uh huh. I'll refer you to the original post in this thread which suggests Guild Sotware should get rid of PK stats because they were easily embellished by scripting.
"This is a skill based game, and programming is a skill."
There you have it folks. You must program to be skilled at this game.
"I personally am a big fan of the open-source movement... plus blather.."
tl;dr that's a lot of hot air. Can you try to be more succinct when you post your agenda?
Uh huh. I'll refer you to the original post in this thread which suggests Guild Sotware should get rid of PK stats because they were easily embellished by scripting.
"This is a skill based game, and programming is a skill."
There you have it folks. You must program to be skilled at this game.
"I personally am a big fan of the open-source movement... plus blather.."
tl;dr that's a lot of hot air. Can you try to be more succinct when you post your agenda?
Wally, it doesn't really matter what the title of the thread is. It's in the suggestion forums where it should be. The devs aren't likely to change this anytime soon as it would upset ARF, EP and Rin, and we can't have that. The truth is, their ten bucks a month aren't worth any more than mine or some fresh noobs from Steam/Android/iOS.
Your insane troll logic is boring. Go back to your jungle, monkey-man.
I'll refer you to the original post in this thread which suggests Guild Sotware should get rid of PK stats because they were easily embellished by scripting.
No the OP suggested, facetiously, that PK stats should be removed because someone exploited them. That plugins were an alleged tool used in the exploitation does not prove it couldn't have been done without plugins (which they certainly could, though it would take more effort).
I get how you are trying to tie this into the topic, 'oRe but it really is it's own topic (and well worth being one, I might add).
No the OP suggested, facetiously, that PK stats should be removed because someone exploited them. That plugins were an alleged tool used in the exploitation does not prove it couldn't have been done without plugins (which they certainly could, though it would take more effort).
I get how you are trying to tie this into the topic, 'oRe but it really is it's own topic (and well worth being one, I might add).
I have, go find it and make a comment.
Registered plugins for online play
Make plugin loading test-server only
It's not worth bumping those -- nobody has made any new arguments.
Make plugin loading test-server only
It's not worth bumping those -- nobody has made any new arguments.
Yep, cellsafemode had it right.
Inc said "Plugins are a Guild-Software-unsupported methodology of experimentally developing modifications to the game UI and onscreen data. We do not consider them exploitative."
Yet here we are. You were wrong Inc.
Inc said "Plugins are a Guild-Software-unsupported methodology of experimentally developing modifications to the game UI and onscreen data. We do not consider them exploitative."
Yet here we are. You were wrong Inc.
Plugins aren't exploitive = Guns don't kill people
If it's exploitable, it will be exploited. Or whatever line of Ecka's that Bojan has memorized about shoving your ethics by all means necessary etcetera. In Canada we shoot grouse and elk with our guns Wally.