Forums » Suggestions
TPG Raptor UDV: Profile reduction
Hello playerbase of VO. This is going to be a Raptor UDV suggestion which will hopefully address the actual main problem.
We've seen very useful updates with productive results. The scanners implemented are fancy and can be useful in daily use. And even the small Thrust boost is notable, contradict to my former assumptions.
Meanwhile, I have fought a good amount of TPG Raptor UDV pilots with varying skill. I approached them with rockets such as Sunflares/Jacks and without them, using energy weapons, mostly from a Corvus Vulturius. And all of theese pilots had the same problem with their ship: It was just too large a target to properly dodge. The rocket fights usually end very quickly; the energy fights last longer but have the same result...
After these tests, I've come to the conclusion that a profile reduction is now the only thing that the Raptor UDV is lacking. Otherwise it is a great ships of its own class. So I suggest: Give it the same treatment which was done to the Valkyrie (The X1 being the result). But instead of flattening it, approach it in a different way.
Solution 1: A general profile reduction. Take the current model of the UDV but reduce it's size by around 20%. Then flatten the result by about 5%. It will make it a much smaller target which should be the result of interest here.
Solution 2: Special treatment. To understand this, I suggest you view a picture of the Raptor UDV.
Here, we would flatten the UDV by maybe 10% and then approach the main problem: The wingspan. While the flattening removes the problem of the "fat" wings, they're still too wide and make it a target almost as big as the Centaur. reduce the wingspan by bringing them closer into the middle. Lastly, the "tail" needs to be smallered. I'd cut a bit of it out so that the length of the UDV will be at around 15m.
Solution 1 will probably be enjoyed much more by the devs, beacuse it will be much easier to apply probably. Solution 2 precisely addresses the problems that I view to be the most critical about the UDV. But I believe going with Option 1 will be good enough and fix the question about the Raptor UDVs abilities for good.
Note that the problem here is not that it "should be able to compete with a Valk/Prom". The problem is that it should be able to compete with the most basic PvP loadouts (such as dual flare Cormauds and energy Corvults.)
Finally I would like to ask everyone to keep the RP out of this; it will not be responded to. Trying to give a last overhaul to a ship that has turned into a considerable choice for flying here. Thanks for reading.
We've seen very useful updates with productive results. The scanners implemented are fancy and can be useful in daily use. And even the small Thrust boost is notable, contradict to my former assumptions.
Meanwhile, I have fought a good amount of TPG Raptor UDV pilots with varying skill. I approached them with rockets such as Sunflares/Jacks and without them, using energy weapons, mostly from a Corvus Vulturius. And all of theese pilots had the same problem with their ship: It was just too large a target to properly dodge. The rocket fights usually end very quickly; the energy fights last longer but have the same result...
After these tests, I've come to the conclusion that a profile reduction is now the only thing that the Raptor UDV is lacking. Otherwise it is a great ships of its own class. So I suggest: Give it the same treatment which was done to the Valkyrie (The X1 being the result). But instead of flattening it, approach it in a different way.
Solution 1: A general profile reduction. Take the current model of the UDV but reduce it's size by around 20%. Then flatten the result by about 5%. It will make it a much smaller target which should be the result of interest here.
Solution 2: Special treatment. To understand this, I suggest you view a picture of the Raptor UDV.
Here, we would flatten the UDV by maybe 10% and then approach the main problem: The wingspan. While the flattening removes the problem of the "fat" wings, they're still too wide and make it a target almost as big as the Centaur. reduce the wingspan by bringing them closer into the middle. Lastly, the "tail" needs to be smallered. I'd cut a bit of it out so that the length of the UDV will be at around 15m.
Solution 1 will probably be enjoyed much more by the devs, beacuse it will be much easier to apply probably. Solution 2 precisely addresses the problems that I view to be the most critical about the UDV. But I believe going with Option 1 will be good enough and fix the question about the Raptor UDVs abilities for good.
Note that the problem here is not that it "should be able to compete with a Valk/Prom". The problem is that it should be able to compete with the most basic PvP loadouts (such as dual flare Cormauds and energy Corvults.)
Finally I would like to ask everyone to keep the RP out of this; it will not be responded to. Trying to give a last overhaul to a ship that has turned into a considerable choice for flying here. Thanks for reading.
Solution 3: Add the planned content that reveals the intended role of the raptor, in which the raptor excels over all other ship types.
+1 to the OP
DF: It will be a looong time until the devs will bring these major changes into the game. The Raptor UDV should be good right now!
DF: It will be a looong time until the devs will bring these major changes into the game. The Raptor UDV should be good right now!
I can consistently beat some people flying X-1s with hounds. Some people just suck at combat period, regardless what ships they fly. Are you sure this is not the case here? UDVs are meant to be promoting survival rather than winning duels anyway. I think you're being a little bit picky.
Also, I fly IDFs more often than I do X-1s. I don't see the flattening as much of an advantage over IDF's slightly better stats. I feel like I dodge flares better in IDFs than X-1s. I'm not sure if flattening would make UDV a better dodger at all, if that's what you're trying to accomplish.
Also, I fly IDFs more often than I do X-1s. I don't see the flattening as much of an advantage over IDF's slightly better stats. I feel like I dodge flares better in IDFs than X-1s. I'm not sure if flattening would make UDV a better dodger at all, if that's what you're trying to accomplish.
You have a point, joylessjoker. But I can assure you, I wouldn't have posted if I had only been fighting inexperienced PvPers. I have fought a variety of people, among them a lot of pilots who I consider to be very good PvPers. All of them were largely handicapped by the UDVs profile.
As for your last point about what I intend to change, let me make that a little more clear. The Raptor UDV actually does a great job at dodging. It is simply the large profile that is in the way. It is too big a target and insanely vulnerable to rocket fire. I don't wanna nerf it's thrust more etc. I understand the UDV isn't supposed to be a super-destruction machine, as pointed out by inc. But this is a handicap it doesn't deserve and reducing the profile would not make it overpowered, just make it a reasonable choice in combat.
As for your last point about what I intend to change, let me make that a little more clear. The Raptor UDV actually does a great job at dodging. It is simply the large profile that is in the way. It is too big a target and insanely vulnerable to rocket fire. I don't wanna nerf it's thrust more etc. I understand the UDV isn't supposed to be a super-destruction machine, as pointed out by inc. But this is a handicap it doesn't deserve and reducing the profile would not make it overpowered, just make it a reasonable choice in combat.
UDV is a fighter with 2 L ports.
You want it turned into is a small, slim & agile 'spitfire' fighter plane that carries 2 nukes and can dogfight.
It's like putting 2 howitzers on a Willis jeep.
There has to be some downsides for being a fighter that packs 2 large weapons.
Enough said.
While we are at this de-nerfing suggestions...
how about returning IBG to it's old 'death pencil' profile and stats (as Sieger would say 'smallered'), removing rocket backsplash damage and safety and allowing the good old rocket ramming like we used to have.
Also, while you're at it, can we please de-nerf proms and valks too?
I want my 250 m/s tri-flare rocket ramming valk back.
Pretty please.
You want it turned into is a small, slim & agile 'spitfire' fighter plane that carries 2 nukes and can dogfight.
It's like putting 2 howitzers on a Willis jeep.
There has to be some downsides for being a fighter that packs 2 large weapons.
Enough said.
While we are at this de-nerfing suggestions...
how about returning IBG to it's old 'death pencil' profile and stats (as Sieger would say 'smallered'), removing rocket backsplash damage and safety and allowing the good old rocket ramming like we used to have.
Also, while you're at it, can we please de-nerf proms and valks too?
I want my 250 m/s tri-flare rocket ramming valk back.
Pretty please.
+1 to the first option. I don't really think the second option is a good idea. The ship would end up looking less beautiful if we moved its wings closer to the middle or something. Let's not ruin the skin of the most pretty ship in VO ;-)
bojansplash:
I think you are missing the dimensions here. This ship is really huge. I mean like... REALLY huge. It wouldn't be turned into a small agile bomber. It's kinda sluggish still. Have you tried flying it yet? Making it a less huge target would just make it fair in fact its still kinda easy to hit the as its nowhere near agile or quick-turning as a corvult/centurion IBG.
And kindly stop the stupid irony tone please. Move your RP-grudges/making-fun-of-jokes against people inside the game. the last 50% of your post was not necessary...
bojansplash:
I think you are missing the dimensions here. This ship is really huge. I mean like... REALLY huge. It wouldn't be turned into a small agile bomber. It's kinda sluggish still. Have you tried flying it yet? Making it a less huge target would just make it fair in fact its still kinda easy to hit the as its nowhere near agile or quick-turning as a corvult/centurion IBG.
And kindly stop the stupid irony tone please. Move your RP-grudges/making-fun-of-jokes against people inside the game. the last 50% of your post was not necessary...
@Serious
I don't think its REALLY huge. It's size is consistent with the ability to pack 2L port weapons and I am sure Inc gave it's overall look and dimensions a serious thought before implementation.
This is a Suggestions forum and we all try to suggest some tweaks and upgrades that we think will benefit the game.
As far as 'low hanging fruit' tweaks (the easiest to implement) go, 2 options are prevalent:
1. nerfing
2. de-nerfing
Also, every suggestion has some kind of RP reason behind it. Numerous request for nerfing/de-nerfing particular nation specific ships over the years have all been RP based and so is this suggestion from Sieger.
So, in your opinion, Sieger is allowed to make RP based suggestions and I am not?
On one thing I can agree, of course, my suggestion for de-nerfing IBG, Prom & Valk definitely deserves it's separate thread so I will move it there.
I don't think its REALLY huge. It's size is consistent with the ability to pack 2L port weapons and I am sure Inc gave it's overall look and dimensions a serious thought before implementation.
This is a Suggestions forum and we all try to suggest some tweaks and upgrades that we think will benefit the game.
As far as 'low hanging fruit' tweaks (the easiest to implement) go, 2 options are prevalent:
1. nerfing
2. de-nerfing
Also, every suggestion has some kind of RP reason behind it. Numerous request for nerfing/de-nerfing particular nation specific ships over the years have all been RP based and so is this suggestion from Sieger.
So, in your opinion, Sieger is allowed to make RP based suggestions and I am not?
On one thing I can agree, of course, my suggestion for de-nerfing IBG, Prom & Valk definitely deserves it's separate thread so I will move it there.
Why? Why should UIT even have a nation specific ship?
Why should a non militarized collection of corporations need such a specialized combat ship? Wouldn't it make more sense and role play immersion for UIT to either have Serco and Itani allies / mercenaries to defend it's disparate interests?
The UDV as far as I can tell was a concession put in to shut people up about UIT players being cut off from the proms and valks. The raptor was meant to be a ship that excels in the fogged sectors that were planned to limit access to stations and other key sectors in certain systems- imo it reads like an ideal pirate ship for that environment rather than a ship meant to go toe to toe in combat. In fact the last buff giving it the additional scanners focus it towards piracy even more so than the stock radar extender. So I don't really see this as a UIT specific ship other than in the sense of a bone thrown to the players making the complaints.
There should be consequences associated with a players nation choice as well as in game behavior. The benefits for UIT should be in trade opportunities such as discounted costs in for having high standing at UIT factions that are unavailable to Serco and Itani which then provide a higher profit as players trade the goods ever deeper into Serco and Itani space. Not this ridiculous butterfly trade system we still f-ing have where you just bounce station to station within the same system between station types.
Why should a non militarized collection of corporations need such a specialized combat ship? Wouldn't it make more sense and role play immersion for UIT to either have Serco and Itani allies / mercenaries to defend it's disparate interests?
The UDV as far as I can tell was a concession put in to shut people up about UIT players being cut off from the proms and valks. The raptor was meant to be a ship that excels in the fogged sectors that were planned to limit access to stations and other key sectors in certain systems- imo it reads like an ideal pirate ship for that environment rather than a ship meant to go toe to toe in combat. In fact the last buff giving it the additional scanners focus it towards piracy even more so than the stock radar extender. So I don't really see this as a UIT specific ship other than in the sense of a bone thrown to the players making the complaints.
There should be consequences associated with a players nation choice as well as in game behavior. The benefits for UIT should be in trade opportunities such as discounted costs in for having high standing at UIT factions that are unavailable to Serco and Itani which then provide a higher profit as players trade the goods ever deeper into Serco and Itani space. Not this ridiculous butterfly trade system we still f-ing have where you just bounce station to station within the same system between station types.
I agree that the planned content for the UDV's purpose should be revealed. The recent addition of the scanners was huge from the perspective of giving the ship some meaning. It seems quite clear from all the discussion and incarnate-commenting that the UDV is NOT supposed to be able to excel as a PvP ship -- at least not in the direct confrontational style PvP.
Death Fluffy - UIT should have a nation specific ship because they should. If they were so close to the Itani and Serco then why can't they buy Proms and Valks? Yup. That's why they need an exclusive combat ship.
Another reason is obviously the defense of their space. Somebody has to guard these convoys they fly. Somebody needs a ship to properly guard these borders to grey and keep the stuff in Ion storms at bay. So far for the RP.
All the promises what UIT could get instead of a nice combat ship or how their Raptor may be useful one day are irrelevant as that is years from now. Let's just be realistic here. GS can't do a complete trade system and game overhaul within a month. It will take much longer. Therefore I suggest things that are relatively easy to switch and can work as a solution until there is the possibility for other ways to make UIT more unique.
Greenwall - I do not intend to demand the Raptor to be buffed to insane values. I just want to give it a little role in player to player combat atleast. With my proposed change it would still be far away from being a huge danger for the Valk.
Another reason is obviously the defense of their space. Somebody has to guard these convoys they fly. Somebody needs a ship to properly guard these borders to grey and keep the stuff in Ion storms at bay. So far for the RP.
All the promises what UIT could get instead of a nice combat ship or how their Raptor may be useful one day are irrelevant as that is years from now. Let's just be realistic here. GS can't do a complete trade system and game overhaul within a month. It will take much longer. Therefore I suggest things that are relatively easy to switch and can work as a solution until there is the possibility for other ways to make UIT more unique.
Greenwall - I do not intend to demand the Raptor to be buffed to insane values. I just want to give it a little role in player to player combat atleast. With my proposed change it would still be far away from being a huge danger for the Valk.
I'm sorry, but "because they should" and "If they were so close to" don't hold up as arguments. Neither do you need an exclusive ship for guard duty. Serco and Itani are nations at war with militaries. It is reasonable that they would have specialized combat ships that are nation specific.
As a collection of competing trade groups, it does not make sense that UIT would withhold technology that could bring them a profit. Especially when that technology is second rate to the premium equipment used by Serco and Itani. Of course the whole map and concept of UIT or the VO universe being split into 2 nations and a set of unified and un unified factions is just absurd imo, but that is the backstory. I mean you can't even have the same level of protection for new UIT players that you get for Serco and Itani- and exclusive equipment makes sense in that environment??
Give the UDV another buff or not. I'd rather see it's intended use put into the game so that it can be properly evaluated. Either way, I do not see any rational as to why this ship would be exclusive any more than I see the rational for the Greyhound going exclusive other than to provide some sense of 'fairness'. And that is something that I disagree with.
As a collection of competing trade groups, it does not make sense that UIT would withhold technology that could bring them a profit. Especially when that technology is second rate to the premium equipment used by Serco and Itani. Of course the whole map and concept of UIT or the VO universe being split into 2 nations and a set of unified and un unified factions is just absurd imo, but that is the backstory. I mean you can't even have the same level of protection for new UIT players that you get for Serco and Itani- and exclusive equipment makes sense in that environment??
Give the UDV another buff or not. I'd rather see it's intended use put into the game so that it can be properly evaluated. Either way, I do not see any rational as to why this ship would be exclusive any more than I see the rational for the Greyhound going exclusive other than to provide some sense of 'fairness'. And that is something that I disagree with.
1) Changes to the game universe, when we're ready for them, may happen far more quickly than people expect. Many of them could be done at any time, but we have infrastructural stuff blocking at the moment.
2) I do not intend to change the profile of the Raptor at this time. I'm not ruling it out.. "ever". But I don't intend to do it now (it's actually more time-consuming than you might think). Ships have tradeoffs. Nations make choices related to their needs, and related tradeoffs. If you study the history of air force usage in warfare, you see lots of that. Countries buying what is available, or building things to specific perceived goals, and then occasionally running into pros/cons of those choices later in actual conflict (Iran - Iraq war, or the high-altitude bombing runs of India vs Pakistan, Germany vs UK in the Battle of Britain, etc). The UIT buys for broader usage than just conflict, therefore the Raptor is not the perfect pure fighter, as that is not its design goal.
At the same time, when we suddenly fog a ton of sectors, I'm not going to add integrated radar extenders into every Valk, either.
2) I do not intend to change the profile of the Raptor at this time. I'm not ruling it out.. "ever". But I don't intend to do it now (it's actually more time-consuming than you might think). Ships have tradeoffs. Nations make choices related to their needs, and related tradeoffs. If you study the history of air force usage in warfare, you see lots of that. Countries buying what is available, or building things to specific perceived goals, and then occasionally running into pros/cons of those choices later in actual conflict (Iran - Iraq war, or the high-altitude bombing runs of India vs Pakistan, Germany vs UK in the Battle of Britain, etc). The UIT buys for broader usage than just conflict, therefore the Raptor is not the perfect pure fighter, as that is not its design goal.
At the same time, when we suddenly fog a ton of sectors, I'm not going to add integrated radar extenders into every Valk, either.
But, (when you suddenly fog a ton of sectors) you WILL make radar extenders work in fogged sectors, right? As of now they do not.
Yeah, we're aware of that issue.
Alright! Thanks for the statement, incarnate. It sounds like it will be best to sit back and wait for these fogged sectors then. I hope they are among the things that come sooner than I think :-P