Forums » Suggestions
Most people who play VO do so because they want to fly a space ship around and shoot things, namely other humans. The largest allure of an MMORPG is, and always will be, some form of PvP. Large group PvP being preferred. However, PvP in VO is unfortunately quite rare. There are many reasons that contribute to this, but I would argue the biggest reason is the lack of structure. There are currently no lasting incentives for PvP offered by the game: the economy is static and unchanging, resources (ore, commodities, addons) are unlimited in supply, territories are unchangeable, stats and badges are essentially symbolic and otherwise unrewarding. Thus PvP has to be entirely self-motivated, wherein lies the fatal flaw.
Humans are generally social creatures, and thus we seek out socially pleasing situations. Most people view negative behavior as anti-social, which is why we see the guilds who exhibit a more "friendly" and "helpful" nature being more successful. I would argue that this is why TGFT is the largest guild in the game, both in total members and average active players. I would also argue that this is why choices to roleplay as the "jerk pirate" or "unrelenting nationalist asshole" result in isolation and/or often unfavorable PvP situations.
By far the most satisfying experience I have ever had in VO, and I assume others would agree, is large group PvP, especially where teams are fairly balanced. Large group PvP is a near impossibility in VO both because of the problems I've listed above (which lend towards poor team balancing) and also because of the vastness of the universe. It is simply highly unlikely for people to self-assemble and self-motivate into large group PvP, let alone small group PvP. Some have held the viewpoint that personal conflict (i.e. "Vendetta") is sufficient to foster large group PvP, but that is flawed thinking. Some (me included) have also held the viewpoint that more people playing will equate to more battles, this has also proven to be flawed thinking.
The missing piece is structure. VO has all the proper workings (ships, weapons, physics) of being a GREAT MMO PvP game, what it's lacking is a proper structure for it to flourish in. I know the lack of structure (i.e. sandbox nature) is viewed as a cornerstone by Incarnate in many ways, and I have personally gone to bat in support of this aspect of the game in many arguments. But I am realizing that despite all the freedom this lack of structure gives us, it severely hurts the game in the most important way.
We need an arena style setting that allows the ability to immediately congregate and immerse in battle -- as well as balanced team and ship/weapon options. Newbs should be able to access this from the onset to see and experience what PvP in VO can be like. Critics will say that I am simply proposing turning VO into SpaceQuake. What I would say to them is that there needs to be a better balance struck between unstructured and structured play. Certainly a total conversion to arena play would be a horrible decision.
I'm not proposing changing anything about how VO currently works other than ADDING this arena aspect. What specific form(s) it would take is for another post, this is simply about pointing out the flaw as I see it in how VO is set up. VO is quite simply too vast, too lonely, and too unstructured for large group PvP to occur on a regular, let alone semi-regular, basis.
We all want a VO where we can log in and immediately be immersed in large group PvP, vets and newbs alike. This piece should be in place and available, and would keep more people playing and paying, thus allowing resources for devs to make the other aspects of VO (i.e. how it currently is) better overall.
Humans are generally social creatures, and thus we seek out socially pleasing situations. Most people view negative behavior as anti-social, which is why we see the guilds who exhibit a more "friendly" and "helpful" nature being more successful. I would argue that this is why TGFT is the largest guild in the game, both in total members and average active players. I would also argue that this is why choices to roleplay as the "jerk pirate" or "unrelenting nationalist asshole" result in isolation and/or often unfavorable PvP situations.
By far the most satisfying experience I have ever had in VO, and I assume others would agree, is large group PvP, especially where teams are fairly balanced. Large group PvP is a near impossibility in VO both because of the problems I've listed above (which lend towards poor team balancing) and also because of the vastness of the universe. It is simply highly unlikely for people to self-assemble and self-motivate into large group PvP, let alone small group PvP. Some have held the viewpoint that personal conflict (i.e. "Vendetta") is sufficient to foster large group PvP, but that is flawed thinking. Some (me included) have also held the viewpoint that more people playing will equate to more battles, this has also proven to be flawed thinking.
The missing piece is structure. VO has all the proper workings (ships, weapons, physics) of being a GREAT MMO PvP game, what it's lacking is a proper structure for it to flourish in. I know the lack of structure (i.e. sandbox nature) is viewed as a cornerstone by Incarnate in many ways, and I have personally gone to bat in support of this aspect of the game in many arguments. But I am realizing that despite all the freedom this lack of structure gives us, it severely hurts the game in the most important way.
We need an arena style setting that allows the ability to immediately congregate and immerse in battle -- as well as balanced team and ship/weapon options. Newbs should be able to access this from the onset to see and experience what PvP in VO can be like. Critics will say that I am simply proposing turning VO into SpaceQuake. What I would say to them is that there needs to be a better balance struck between unstructured and structured play. Certainly a total conversion to arena play would be a horrible decision.
I'm not proposing changing anything about how VO currently works other than ADDING this arena aspect. What specific form(s) it would take is for another post, this is simply about pointing out the flaw as I see it in how VO is set up. VO is quite simply too vast, too lonely, and too unstructured for large group PvP to occur on a regular, let alone semi-regular, basis.
We all want a VO where we can log in and immediately be immersed in large group PvP, vets and newbs alike. This piece should be in place and available, and would keep more people playing and paying, thus allowing resources for devs to make the other aspects of VO (i.e. how it currently is) better overall.
3 things that would help:
1. Make all greyhounds only available in odia.
2. Change positions of odia and deneb.
3. Make hive attack stations with a real impact to gameplay that forces players to band together and clear them out. VO doesn't have enough incentive for cooperative play, and suffers in all group play scenarios. Pilots learn they can do 99% alone so groups are never a priority.
1. Make all greyhounds only available in odia.
2. Change positions of odia and deneb.
3. Make hive attack stations with a real impact to gameplay that forces players to band together and clear them out. VO doesn't have enough incentive for cooperative play, and suffers in all group play scenarios. Pilots learn they can do 99% alone so groups are never a priority.
If only there were a game where people could play (space) Quake in an...Arena.
This is a difficult problem. (long post again, sorry!)
-1 to an arena. That (indeed) just transforms VO from a MMORPG to a space quake, and makes sure that anyone interested in combat will just hang around in the arena, making the rest of the game even more "my little pony online" as only traders and miners will be outside of the arena.
I think there are three possible driving forces in a game like VO: individual gain and prestige, nationalist gain/prestige, and guild gain/prestige.
For individual gain, the current system of license levels, badges, and the informal hierarchy where competent and active players get prestige provides enough incentive for people to play.
For both the nationalist and guild, to get people to really do something requires for high-level assets to be dynamic, e.g. stations, sectors, and even systems must be able to change hands. Things like deneb and ctc are interesting for a short while, but once everyone has 300 neut3's stockpiled and blown up a couple HACs the fun wears out. So, it must be possible to thrive as a nation/guild because of player action, which I think requires conquering stuff. All player actions should in principle be able to contribute to this, e.g. direct combat
This also requires some sort of feedback loop to ensure that it becomes progressively harder to capture or maintain these assets, as otherwise the largest group simply spins out of control. In the current 'verse, Serco would no longer exist if it were a matter of conquering systems one by one. (Presumably this should synergize with the backstory reason of why grey has not been conquered.)
I'm sure inc. et al have something in mind that will be developed real soon now, but for the record here is a sketch of what I would propose:
Conquest arc:
- make all stations conquerable
- replace border turrets in non-station sectors by some sort of conquerable entity ("guard posts"). If all stations and wormholes in a system are conquered, the system is considered conquered.
- nations react in force to people conquering systems in (and next to?) their borders. The closer a sector is to the core of a nation, the strong it reacts. Thus, a dedicated group of players might be able to conquer and hold onto Jallik, but it will be almost impossible to conquer Pherona.
- on conquering a station, the player has three options: keep it for himself, transfer it to the guild, and return/transfer it to the nation. Nations will only be interested in stations bordering their territory or formerly belonging to it, UIT and all minor factions are only interested in their own (former) territory, and Serco/Itan are not interested in UIT/corporate territory. The advantage of giving/returning to the nation is that the nation (i.e. NPCs) then become responsible for defending it, rather than the players.
- the hive can also conquer stations, which are then called "infested" and essentially taken out of commission until the are re-conquered by the nation, guild, or band of privateers. (it's actually interesting that the hive is now the most dynamic part of the game, but is considered more or less irrelevant because it doesn't impact the rest)
Economy arc:
- There is a supply chain or ores -> basic goods -> advanced goods (weapons). For a nation to thrive, the mining stations need a steady supply of diverse ores, producing basic goods that need to be transported to the commercial/capital stations to be turned into weapons etc., which need to be delivered to the barracks/border sectors.
- Supply of good determines availability and price at stations, but also how much NPC force is available to attack the hive, react to aggressions, defend the border, etc. Thus, mining and transporting directly helps your nation/corporation, while disrupting mining/transporting will reduce its strength and hence make it easier to conquer territory.
- Similarly, if you conquer a WH sector, you (as a person/group/guild) need to supply it with a steady stream of materials to keep the turrets operational. Since the WH guard house or barracks cannot manufacture these, a true blockade requires conquering and keeping at least two sectors and constant involvement in mining and trading between these. If the economy is neglected, the turrets will not repair and reload, and the blockade will not last.
Player involvement:
- Individual players can contribute to their nation by mining/transporting, by attacking miners/transports (privateer style), and by attacking/defending border stations.
Feedback loops:
- For nation space, the distance to capital is a direct feedback loop that makes it impossible for one nation to dominate. The military force can be diminshed by attacking the economy, but if force exponentially increases with proximity at some point it will be stronger, and that some point is presumably the capital system border. There can be some public indicator of nation strenght, e.g. something like the amount of HAC combat groups, primarily determined by the economy. Any number above what is required to defend existing territory will be devoted to (re)conquest. This also means that the smaller a nation is, the more attack groups it has, as it needs less for defense.
- For guilds, I would propose that every station needs to be owned/controlled by a separate officer in the guild. Thus, a guild with 10 stations needs 10 people to continue to collaborate. Human nature and guild politics will probably mean that you get arguments, factions, and eventual breakup, and at least offers competing guilds a non-combat oriented way to beat back (bribing, scheming etc). Also, since guilds have no "free" combat force (only PC's) and any station will receive a stream of NPC attacks from its former owner, as soon as a guild becomes less active it will start losing territory.
The 3AM empty space problem:
- One drawback of current conquest mechanisms is that defense requires active players, and most of us have jobs and/or a need to sleep. No guild can maintain a 24h watch on a system for an extended period of time, and even if they could it is quite boring.
- A solution could be that conquest has two steps: and intial encroachment that can happen at any time, which triggers an event at a given time. Maybe we should allocate two fixed time slots for this, one in U.S. prime time (say 8PM eastern = 2AM europe = 9AM china/wester au), and one more convenient for the non-US crowd, e.g. 8AM eastern = 2PM europe = 9PM china). Having events happen at the same time also forces guilds to defend/attack multiple places at the same time, which also acts as a feedback loop by penalizing large holdings.
- big events, such as nation reaction to conquest or improtant conquest missions, should only happen in the weekends to allow maximum participation.
(W)TL;DR: we need to be able to conquer more stuff. The mechanics are more or less there, let's get it going!
-1 to an arena. That (indeed) just transforms VO from a MMORPG to a space quake, and makes sure that anyone interested in combat will just hang around in the arena, making the rest of the game even more "my little pony online" as only traders and miners will be outside of the arena.
I think there are three possible driving forces in a game like VO: individual gain and prestige, nationalist gain/prestige, and guild gain/prestige.
For individual gain, the current system of license levels, badges, and the informal hierarchy where competent and active players get prestige provides enough incentive for people to play.
For both the nationalist and guild, to get people to really do something requires for high-level assets to be dynamic, e.g. stations, sectors, and even systems must be able to change hands. Things like deneb and ctc are interesting for a short while, but once everyone has 300 neut3's stockpiled and blown up a couple HACs the fun wears out. So, it must be possible to thrive as a nation/guild because of player action, which I think requires conquering stuff. All player actions should in principle be able to contribute to this, e.g. direct combat
This also requires some sort of feedback loop to ensure that it becomes progressively harder to capture or maintain these assets, as otherwise the largest group simply spins out of control. In the current 'verse, Serco would no longer exist if it were a matter of conquering systems one by one. (Presumably this should synergize with the backstory reason of why grey has not been conquered.)
I'm sure inc. et al have something in mind that will be developed real soon now, but for the record here is a sketch of what I would propose:
Conquest arc:
- make all stations conquerable
- replace border turrets in non-station sectors by some sort of conquerable entity ("guard posts"). If all stations and wormholes in a system are conquered, the system is considered conquered.
- nations react in force to people conquering systems in (and next to?) their borders. The closer a sector is to the core of a nation, the strong it reacts. Thus, a dedicated group of players might be able to conquer and hold onto Jallik, but it will be almost impossible to conquer Pherona.
- on conquering a station, the player has three options: keep it for himself, transfer it to the guild, and return/transfer it to the nation. Nations will only be interested in stations bordering their territory or formerly belonging to it, UIT and all minor factions are only interested in their own (former) territory, and Serco/Itan are not interested in UIT/corporate territory. The advantage of giving/returning to the nation is that the nation (i.e. NPCs) then become responsible for defending it, rather than the players.
- the hive can also conquer stations, which are then called "infested" and essentially taken out of commission until the are re-conquered by the nation, guild, or band of privateers. (it's actually interesting that the hive is now the most dynamic part of the game, but is considered more or less irrelevant because it doesn't impact the rest)
Economy arc:
- There is a supply chain or ores -> basic goods -> advanced goods (weapons). For a nation to thrive, the mining stations need a steady supply of diverse ores, producing basic goods that need to be transported to the commercial/capital stations to be turned into weapons etc., which need to be delivered to the barracks/border sectors.
- Supply of good determines availability and price at stations, but also how much NPC force is available to attack the hive, react to aggressions, defend the border, etc. Thus, mining and transporting directly helps your nation/corporation, while disrupting mining/transporting will reduce its strength and hence make it easier to conquer territory.
- Similarly, if you conquer a WH sector, you (as a person/group/guild) need to supply it with a steady stream of materials to keep the turrets operational. Since the WH guard house or barracks cannot manufacture these, a true blockade requires conquering and keeping at least two sectors and constant involvement in mining and trading between these. If the economy is neglected, the turrets will not repair and reload, and the blockade will not last.
Player involvement:
- Individual players can contribute to their nation by mining/transporting, by attacking miners/transports (privateer style), and by attacking/defending border stations.
Feedback loops:
- For nation space, the distance to capital is a direct feedback loop that makes it impossible for one nation to dominate. The military force can be diminshed by attacking the economy, but if force exponentially increases with proximity at some point it will be stronger, and that some point is presumably the capital system border. There can be some public indicator of nation strenght, e.g. something like the amount of HAC combat groups, primarily determined by the economy. Any number above what is required to defend existing territory will be devoted to (re)conquest. This also means that the smaller a nation is, the more attack groups it has, as it needs less for defense.
- For guilds, I would propose that every station needs to be owned/controlled by a separate officer in the guild. Thus, a guild with 10 stations needs 10 people to continue to collaborate. Human nature and guild politics will probably mean that you get arguments, factions, and eventual breakup, and at least offers competing guilds a non-combat oriented way to beat back (bribing, scheming etc). Also, since guilds have no "free" combat force (only PC's) and any station will receive a stream of NPC attacks from its former owner, as soon as a guild becomes less active it will start losing territory.
The 3AM empty space problem:
- One drawback of current conquest mechanisms is that defense requires active players, and most of us have jobs and/or a need to sleep. No guild can maintain a 24h watch on a system for an extended period of time, and even if they could it is quite boring.
- A solution could be that conquest has two steps: and intial encroachment that can happen at any time, which triggers an event at a given time. Maybe we should allocate two fixed time slots for this, one in U.S. prime time (say 8PM eastern = 2AM europe = 9AM china/wester au), and one more convenient for the non-US crowd, e.g. 8AM eastern = 2PM europe = 9PM china). Having events happen at the same time also forces guilds to defend/attack multiple places at the same time, which also acts as a feedback loop by penalizing large holdings.
- big events, such as nation reaction to conquest or improtant conquest missions, should only happen in the weekends to allow maximum participation.
(W)TL;DR: we need to be able to conquer more stuff. The mechanics are more or less there, let's get it going!
I liked everything except the 3AM problem...it should be able to happen whenever...but other than that
+1
+1
+ 1 generally to the OP as I pretty much agree with Greenwall
However, I must counter the idea that PVP is necessarily the prime reason for people playing the game. I certainly admit that many players are around for the pvp or npc combat opportunities. Nevertheless, I would argue that many players, myself among them, play for other aspects of the game, such as trade when it was relevant, mining when doing chores, manufacturing, and transporting for other players. I think that the reality of UIT still having the largest population most of the time, as well as any number of non combative Itani and Serco that I see add some validity to my point.
I do enjoy pvp. It's just not a big part of what I do when I log on. That said, if there were some sort of 'arena' environment where if I jumped to the sector, I would be immediately immersed in player to player combat, I would absolutely do more of it. I for one thought the capture the flag events that Momerath did a few years ago were f-ing awesome.
However, I must counter the idea that PVP is necessarily the prime reason for people playing the game. I certainly admit that many players are around for the pvp or npc combat opportunities. Nevertheless, I would argue that many players, myself among them, play for other aspects of the game, such as trade when it was relevant, mining when doing chores, manufacturing, and transporting for other players. I think that the reality of UIT still having the largest population most of the time, as well as any number of non combative Itani and Serco that I see add some validity to my point.
I do enjoy pvp. It's just not a big part of what I do when I log on. That said, if there were some sort of 'arena' environment where if I jumped to the sector, I would be immediately immersed in player to player combat, I would absolutely do more of it. I for one thought the capture the flag events that Momerath did a few years ago were f-ing awesome.
Vanatteveldt -- I appreciate the thought you put into your huge post, but honestly I don't think those megalithic changes you propose will have any effect on the occurence of large group PvP. VO is still too complex and too vast, and thus my original points remain unaddressed by you.
Basically, the size of the VO universe is appropriate for a playerbase in the tens of thousands. If we had that many people then your ideas might work to sustain those numbers, but they certainly won't get us there.
Fluffy, I don't mean to say that nobody else enjoys other aspects of the game. And certainly I am projecting my own opinions and desires here as a burned out vet, but I honestly don't think it's too offbase to say that large group PvP is the biggest draw. When I first started playing I was also of the position that participating in trade and mining and (eventually) manufacturing would be fun, but it didn't take long before those activities seemed pointless. There simply is too little demand for support services and too little opportunity for economic dominance for related activities to have any meaning in an MMORPG. For personal time-killing purposes they might still have a place, but then that begs the question of why play an MMORPG if you are not interacting with other players?
Since it might be too difficult to deal in abstract, here's a VERY BASIC example of an arena addition:
-Two new one-sector systems would be available inside the loop of Itani/Serco/UIT space. They would be accessible from any sector.
-One sector would be limited to certain ship and weapon types (all non-conforming ships / weapons would be destroyed by instakill lasers) and the second for advanced play: Sector 1 (newb arena): Only EC-89s, only Gov't blasters, or whatever highest tier weaponry is available to newbs. Sector 2 (advanced arena): any and all ships and addons allowed.
-Upon entering players would be automatically assigned to team Red or team Blue, be given keys to a corresponding station (with purchasable items), and a PK score would show up the hud, resetting every, say 15 minutes.
-Players could then return to the sector the entered from when they were finished.
-There should be limitations on cargo to reduce abuse.
Basically, the size of the VO universe is appropriate for a playerbase in the tens of thousands. If we had that many people then your ideas might work to sustain those numbers, but they certainly won't get us there.
Fluffy, I don't mean to say that nobody else enjoys other aspects of the game. And certainly I am projecting my own opinions and desires here as a burned out vet, but I honestly don't think it's too offbase to say that large group PvP is the biggest draw. When I first started playing I was also of the position that participating in trade and mining and (eventually) manufacturing would be fun, but it didn't take long before those activities seemed pointless. There simply is too little demand for support services and too little opportunity for economic dominance for related activities to have any meaning in an MMORPG. For personal time-killing purposes they might still have a place, but then that begs the question of why play an MMORPG if you are not interacting with other players?
Since it might be too difficult to deal in abstract, here's a VERY BASIC example of an arena addition:
-Two new one-sector systems would be available inside the loop of Itani/Serco/UIT space. They would be accessible from any sector.
-One sector would be limited to certain ship and weapon types (all non-conforming ships / weapons would be destroyed by instakill lasers) and the second for advanced play: Sector 1 (newb arena): Only EC-89s, only Gov't blasters, or whatever highest tier weaponry is available to newbs. Sector 2 (advanced arena): any and all ships and addons allowed.
-Upon entering players would be automatically assigned to team Red or team Blue, be given keys to a corresponding station (with purchasable items), and a PK score would show up the hud, resetting every, say 15 minutes.
-Players could then return to the sector the entered from when they were finished.
-There should be limitations on cargo to reduce abuse.
What about re-drawing the Verse changing the WH from Jallik to go to Odai instead of Edras, from Intros to Odia instead of Ukaria, from Verasi to Odia instead of Edras - - add Edras to UIT space, leave Ukaria and Helo where they are in Grey with no WH into Serco. The manufacturing Stations stay as they are. This would force any traffic into grey and manfufacturing to go thru Odia, thus making Odia a battle ground system. The WH from Jallik, Intros, and Verasi could all jump into same Odia sector.
Itani space and Serco space would still be same, except for the WH's, and still connect to Deneb. UIT space would end up as a long string of systems ending in a dead end. This would also give UIT new players a little more protection as Itan and Serco would no longer need to traverse it to get to battle sectors with the other side.
Itani space and Serco space would still be same, except for the WH's, and still connect to Deneb. UIT space would end up as a long string of systems ending in a dead end. This would also give UIT new players a little more protection as Itan and Serco would no longer need to traverse it to get to battle sectors with the other side.
I'm not disagreeing with you at all. I've seen this type of idea suggested in the past and get shot down. That is absolutely not my intention. I believe the reasoning used was something like creating 'space quake' would remove the combat oriented people from the primary game and kill off the 'fictional universe'.
Nor did I intend to imply that you hold the views I made my argument against.
Otherwise, I agree with Savet's 3rd point. No opinion on the first two. I would add #4 to be make the earlier missions capable of being taken by groups, both combat and trade and make a slight bonus to the mission rewards based on the number of players involved. Not at the same absurd level that we had with Border Patrol, but a modest improvement that encourages working together. Do this for combat practice, trade and mining missions.
Nor did I intend to imply that you hold the views I made my argument against.
Otherwise, I agree with Savet's 3rd point. No opinion on the first two. I would add #4 to be make the earlier missions capable of being taken by groups, both combat and trade and make a slight bonus to the mission rewards based on the number of players involved. Not at the same absurd level that we had with Border Patrol, but a modest improvement that encourages working together. Do this for combat practice, trade and mining missions.
To expand on my 3rd point:
1. Make mining missions groupable.
2. Make rogue queen mission groupable and continue offering it past level 3 or wherever it cuts off.
3. Make gauntlet groupable.
4. Increase queen armor by 50% so players must form groups to hunt queens.
5. Give bots an aggro table so they change targets to the person doing damage to them. This allows newbies to more easily group mine a bot sector by allowing one player to "tank"
We can only solve the lone-player problem if we create reasons to group throughout their gameplay, starting when they are new.
1. Make mining missions groupable.
2. Make rogue queen mission groupable and continue offering it past level 3 or wherever it cuts off.
3. Make gauntlet groupable.
4. Increase queen armor by 50% so players must form groups to hunt queens.
5. Give bots an aggro table so they change targets to the person doing damage to them. This allows newbies to more easily group mine a bot sector by allowing one player to "tank"
We can only solve the lone-player problem if we create reasons to group throughout their gameplay, starting when they are new.
Screw my long post, +1 Savet
[And after that make all stations conquerable, starting with some new ones in deneb]
[And after that make all stations conquerable, starting with some new ones in deneb]
Since we're playing make believe and imagining the game as we think it ought to be vs how it ever will be...
Get rid of mining. There is no crafting system in place to make it anything more than a time suck grind. Whether you have 1 person mining or 5, it will still be mining and it will still be boring because you're not changing the fundamental purpose of it or function of it in the game.
Get rid of trading. Same reason as above only instead of "crafting" substitute "persistent dynamic economy that reflects the overall game state" (war prone areas / blockaded areas / piracy prone areas ). Since nothing is scarce, the act of trading is nothing more than a time suck grind. These two aspects of the game are nothing more than artificial barriers offering absolutely nothing additional above that to the rest of the game.
In other words, they exist simply to slow the player down and interact and reflect nothing to the rest of the game.
So now you're left with combat, which is really the only part of the game it seems that matters.
Get rid of the 6 character slots, 1 character slot that you can delete and switch sides but not retain anything from. Reset all accounts and rebalance the ships. It's ok if some ships can't hold their own against others in more ways than just armor or thrust (make more items ship specific or builtin to give each their own unique personality and usefullness regardless of license requirements). There is no storage beyond the set limits of a few ships per station per player and no "item" storage outside of each ship's hold. If a station is conquered, you lose everything that was stored there. If your ship was destroyed you lose the contents of it's hold. No drops. Debris from ship destruction is always scrap. No boxes either to represent scrap. Scrap is randomized small bits of metal that you can collect into your hold.
Get rid of the other systems. 1 256 sector system. Heavily guarded stations on either end with a splatter of stations amongst the rest of the sectors that can be conquerable (it never resets). Conquering a station conquers it for your entire nation. Beef up the AI so cap ships are bad ass ships you do not want to mess with alone (no stupid i'm going to sit here and take a beating AI like currently exists).
UIT is an NPC only faction that trafficks supplies to both nations. It's activities are external to the game and thus you probably wont see any UIT ships ever.
Tridents are purchasable but extremely expensive and require top military licenses. Losing a trident causes license loss since the effect on the military to replace them is significant. Gaining licenses is not easy. Since this is now a combat support vessel, it's not so easy to boom either.
Missions availability would react to the state of the game like whether or not a station is under attack or being attacked or is cutoff etc. The objective being to drive the enemy back to their home station. Every single mission is war oriented, be it combat, recon, escort, assassination, etc.
The hive still exists, and is a third party to this war with it's own agenda. It's levi acting as it's home base. Bases everywhere are super hard to conquer (impossible even in small groups). The hive can conquer bases as well if left unchecked. At random you'll get an eager mechanic offer up a mission to study the remains of certain hive bots, the fruits of this mission will be an random offering of various hive items (queen gat, Avalon torpedo launcher etc).
Every single day and moment in the game is a constant state of war that the players have within their power to sway through strategy and coordination. credits are earned by one of two ways, scrapping debris (recycling) or by destroying enemy ships. Licenses are earned by completing missions successfully (you can't earn licenses outside of missions, since a license is something bestowed upon you by an authority and the authority's means of testing you is via the mission system). You can earn accomplishments outside of missions, accomplishments can grant you access to special weapons or ships even.
Oh, and jumping is limited with smaller ships being able to jump at most, 2 sectors in any direction and larger ships more. Being in a group lets the ships share a jump if they are within a certain proximity of eachother to the person initiating a jump. IE, if a wing of fighters is escorting a cap ship and they are close like they should be, the capship's jump will take the fighters with it without them having to jump or navigate so long as they're all in the same group. Players can group to any capship or ship in their nation they want (assuming they have good standing), groups sizes would not be arbitrarily limited.
EDIT: jumping into a sector is controlled if desired. The AI in your ship will jump far out if it's a sector not controlled by your nation or much closer to the center of the sector if it is. Additionally, the player would be able to select precisely where to jump in via a cube prior to navigating, allowing the players to strategize an assault on given sectors or jump behind enemy lines if they have current intel on the positions of the enemy's front line in a current battle, etc.
End Edit:
Guilds exist in the game, but are much less like independent interests in the game and more like battalions. The game would even recognize your guild by tracking the accomplishments of it's members as well as the defeats and or traitorous acts of it's members. Special missions may be offered to players simply due to their membership with a given guild. Conversely, some may be denied for the same reason. In this way guilds will live and die by their members and the trust between them.
so yea. that's my prescription. Explosion Noise!
Get rid of mining. There is no crafting system in place to make it anything more than a time suck grind. Whether you have 1 person mining or 5, it will still be mining and it will still be boring because you're not changing the fundamental purpose of it or function of it in the game.
Get rid of trading. Same reason as above only instead of "crafting" substitute "persistent dynamic economy that reflects the overall game state" (war prone areas / blockaded areas / piracy prone areas ). Since nothing is scarce, the act of trading is nothing more than a time suck grind. These two aspects of the game are nothing more than artificial barriers offering absolutely nothing additional above that to the rest of the game.
In other words, they exist simply to slow the player down and interact and reflect nothing to the rest of the game.
So now you're left with combat, which is really the only part of the game it seems that matters.
Get rid of the 6 character slots, 1 character slot that you can delete and switch sides but not retain anything from. Reset all accounts and rebalance the ships. It's ok if some ships can't hold their own against others in more ways than just armor or thrust (make more items ship specific or builtin to give each their own unique personality and usefullness regardless of license requirements). There is no storage beyond the set limits of a few ships per station per player and no "item" storage outside of each ship's hold. If a station is conquered, you lose everything that was stored there. If your ship was destroyed you lose the contents of it's hold. No drops. Debris from ship destruction is always scrap. No boxes either to represent scrap. Scrap is randomized small bits of metal that you can collect into your hold.
Get rid of the other systems. 1 256 sector system. Heavily guarded stations on either end with a splatter of stations amongst the rest of the sectors that can be conquerable (it never resets). Conquering a station conquers it for your entire nation. Beef up the AI so cap ships are bad ass ships you do not want to mess with alone (no stupid i'm going to sit here and take a beating AI like currently exists).
UIT is an NPC only faction that trafficks supplies to both nations. It's activities are external to the game and thus you probably wont see any UIT ships ever.
Tridents are purchasable but extremely expensive and require top military licenses. Losing a trident causes license loss since the effect on the military to replace them is significant. Gaining licenses is not easy. Since this is now a combat support vessel, it's not so easy to boom either.
Missions availability would react to the state of the game like whether or not a station is under attack or being attacked or is cutoff etc. The objective being to drive the enemy back to their home station. Every single mission is war oriented, be it combat, recon, escort, assassination, etc.
The hive still exists, and is a third party to this war with it's own agenda. It's levi acting as it's home base. Bases everywhere are super hard to conquer (impossible even in small groups). The hive can conquer bases as well if left unchecked. At random you'll get an eager mechanic offer up a mission to study the remains of certain hive bots, the fruits of this mission will be an random offering of various hive items (queen gat, Avalon torpedo launcher etc).
Every single day and moment in the game is a constant state of war that the players have within their power to sway through strategy and coordination. credits are earned by one of two ways, scrapping debris (recycling) or by destroying enemy ships. Licenses are earned by completing missions successfully (you can't earn licenses outside of missions, since a license is something bestowed upon you by an authority and the authority's means of testing you is via the mission system). You can earn accomplishments outside of missions, accomplishments can grant you access to special weapons or ships even.
Oh, and jumping is limited with smaller ships being able to jump at most, 2 sectors in any direction and larger ships more. Being in a group lets the ships share a jump if they are within a certain proximity of eachother to the person initiating a jump. IE, if a wing of fighters is escorting a cap ship and they are close like they should be, the capship's jump will take the fighters with it without them having to jump or navigate so long as they're all in the same group. Players can group to any capship or ship in their nation they want (assuming they have good standing), groups sizes would not be arbitrarily limited.
EDIT: jumping into a sector is controlled if desired. The AI in your ship will jump far out if it's a sector not controlled by your nation or much closer to the center of the sector if it is. Additionally, the player would be able to select precisely where to jump in via a cube prior to navigating, allowing the players to strategize an assault on given sectors or jump behind enemy lines if they have current intel on the positions of the enemy's front line in a current battle, etc.
End Edit:
Guilds exist in the game, but are much less like independent interests in the game and more like battalions. The game would even recognize your guild by tracking the accomplishments of it's members as well as the defeats and or traitorous acts of it's members. Special missions may be offered to players simply due to their membership with a given guild. Conversely, some may be denied for the same reason. In this way guilds will live and die by their members and the trust between them.
so yea. that's my prescription. Explosion Noise!
"It's clear the sandbox needs a little more structure. If you're looking for nationalist abuse refer to your own guild [SOI]."
"1. No forcing. Wtf is up with you and forcing? This is a sandbox game. We do what we please."
LOL
"The missing piece is structure. VO has all the proper workings (ships, weapons, physics) of being a GREAT MMO PvP game, what it's lacking is a proper structure for it to flourish in. I know the lack of structure (i.e. sandbox nature) is viewed as a cornerstone by Incarnate in many ways, and I have personally gone to bat in support of this aspect of the game in many arguments. But I am realizing that despite all the freedom this lack of structure gives us, it severely hurts the game in the most important way."
Make up your mind Wally. Did someone poop in your sandbox today?
"1. No forcing. Wtf is up with you and forcing? This is a sandbox game. We do what we please."
LOL
"The missing piece is structure. VO has all the proper workings (ships, weapons, physics) of being a GREAT MMO PvP game, what it's lacking is a proper structure for it to flourish in. I know the lack of structure (i.e. sandbox nature) is viewed as a cornerstone by Incarnate in many ways, and I have personally gone to bat in support of this aspect of the game in many arguments. But I am realizing that despite all the freedom this lack of structure gives us, it severely hurts the game in the most important way."
Make up your mind Wally. Did someone poop in your sandbox today?
I think I've been pretty clear about what I'm thinking. Your inability to read/comprehend is no surprise, nor is your forum trolling.
Shoot down posts then reformat some of those ideas as your own.
Greenwall found the missing Piece! It's structure! Go forth and implement devs.
Greenwall found the missing Piece! It's structure! Go forth and implement devs.
YES greenwall
OMG it's the same thing I've been saying for years and everyone (-1'd) it or said to go away.
YES I had other suggestions but ALL were related to the lack of player base and lack of PVP participants which is really the same thing.
So how to get more participants for PVP and GROUP PVP ?
That is the question right ?
I mean people want to login and KNOW they can go somewhere to PVP or GROUP PVP.
The basic structure of a real incentive for doing PVP is not existent currently.
I use the capture the flag concept in the past only as an example of the incentive that is provided by these game models.
WOT, WarThunder,MechWarrior use this, but NEVER suffer from the problem of participation in PVP.
Considering PVP from those models and the structure of earning higher levels of goodies from PVP efforts is a good incentive to keep people battling.
I thought of some sort of hybrid PVP incentive in Deneb. This is because IMO this seems to be the main focus of the backround story portion of Vendetta. However it does not have to be directed toward Deneb really.
It might be nice to be able to earn something toward cap ship constructions for doing PVP battles.
I don't believe is has to be so complicated that it would take a lifetime to implement with the current resources.
The subject needs focus and narrowing down the broad range of ideas.
----------------------------------
A possible solution suggestion: (*This could be dumbed down a lot for quicker implementation)
Overview PVP Missions(players only no NPCs):
A PVP structure could be as simple as adding a PVP mission that pays in manhours instead of credits.
Manhour credits would be a new form of currency and/or trading. Only earned in PVP missions/battles
Capture the flag or zone type PVP mission (*but not necessarily mostly for illustration)
Loser gets paid in manhour credits (lower rate then winner)
Winner gets paid in manhour credits(double rate of the loser or perhaps a little more)
Overall manhour credits earned will be relatively low in comparison to the current credit system
Manhours credits could be used to purchase or trade anything manpower related (delivered ores, delivered equipment, constructed materials, cap ship parts etc.)Perhaps excluding ore and equipment prices which would be paid in credits). Or something like this.
Manhours could be purchased but will cost HIGH creds price compared to the PVP battles required to obtain them. PVP should earn little toward manhours but the incentive is there to battle vs hauling freight for those who are in the mood for PVP.
I know this would not be so simple to implement but could be dumbed down a lot.
Heck even offering manhour credits and not even implimenting them right now would still be cool. People would go PVP to earn them for the future knowing they will be needed and desired.
Knowing they will be of high value and hard to obtain. Also super high price to purchase with credits.
This might help to solve others issues with the economy by creating other economic valued products that could mold the economy a little bit.
I have no doubt this will get the -1 to death but still hoping to play this empty game someday before I get old and die.
Happy wormhole jumping and scouring the void for PVP
OMG it's the same thing I've been saying for years and everyone (-1'd) it or said to go away.
YES I had other suggestions but ALL were related to the lack of player base and lack of PVP participants which is really the same thing.
So how to get more participants for PVP and GROUP PVP ?
That is the question right ?
I mean people want to login and KNOW they can go somewhere to PVP or GROUP PVP.
The basic structure of a real incentive for doing PVP is not existent currently.
I use the capture the flag concept in the past only as an example of the incentive that is provided by these game models.
WOT, WarThunder,MechWarrior use this, but NEVER suffer from the problem of participation in PVP.
Considering PVP from those models and the structure of earning higher levels of goodies from PVP efforts is a good incentive to keep people battling.
I thought of some sort of hybrid PVP incentive in Deneb. This is because IMO this seems to be the main focus of the backround story portion of Vendetta. However it does not have to be directed toward Deneb really.
It might be nice to be able to earn something toward cap ship constructions for doing PVP battles.
I don't believe is has to be so complicated that it would take a lifetime to implement with the current resources.
The subject needs focus and narrowing down the broad range of ideas.
----------------------------------
A possible solution suggestion: (*This could be dumbed down a lot for quicker implementation)
Overview PVP Missions(players only no NPCs):
A PVP structure could be as simple as adding a PVP mission that pays in manhours instead of credits.
Manhour credits would be a new form of currency and/or trading. Only earned in PVP missions/battles
Capture the flag or zone type PVP mission (*but not necessarily mostly for illustration)
Loser gets paid in manhour credits (lower rate then winner)
Winner gets paid in manhour credits(double rate of the loser or perhaps a little more)
Overall manhour credits earned will be relatively low in comparison to the current credit system
Manhours credits could be used to purchase or trade anything manpower related (delivered ores, delivered equipment, constructed materials, cap ship parts etc.)Perhaps excluding ore and equipment prices which would be paid in credits). Or something like this.
Manhours could be purchased but will cost HIGH creds price compared to the PVP battles required to obtain them. PVP should earn little toward manhours but the incentive is there to battle vs hauling freight for those who are in the mood for PVP.
I know this would not be so simple to implement but could be dumbed down a lot.
Heck even offering manhour credits and not even implimenting them right now would still be cool. People would go PVP to earn them for the future knowing they will be needed and desired.
Knowing they will be of high value and hard to obtain. Also super high price to purchase with credits.
This might help to solve others issues with the economy by creating other economic valued products that could mold the economy a little bit.
I have no doubt this will get the -1 to death but still hoping to play this empty game someday before I get old and die.
Happy wormhole jumping and scouring the void for PVP
"I mean people want to login and KNOW they can go somewhere to PVP or GROUP PVP. "
that's what greyspace is for. wander in there at the right time of day, piss off some pirates, and you're set.
really, of all the things to have a problem with in VO, PVP isn't the thing I'd pick. it's well balanced gear wise, skill based, and occurs within the game world instead of being sectioned off, which is everything I want in MMO PvP.
"We need an arena style setting that allows the ability to immediately congregate and immerse in battle -- as well as balanced team and ship/weapon options."
most people will default to the easiest option for obtaining PvP, as evidenced by b8. if an arena is available to get a quick fix of VO PvP, no one will bother with open world PvP.
that's what greyspace is for. wander in there at the right time of day, piss off some pirates, and you're set.
really, of all the things to have a problem with in VO, PVP isn't the thing I'd pick. it's well balanced gear wise, skill based, and occurs within the game world instead of being sectioned off, which is everything I want in MMO PvP.
"We need an arena style setting that allows the ability to immediately congregate and immerse in battle -- as well as balanced team and ship/weapon options."
most people will default to the easiest option for obtaining PvP, as evidenced by b8. if an arena is available to get a quick fix of VO PvP, no one will bother with open world PvP.
Captain86 -- very interesting idea re: man-hours. I like it, but I don't think it would would increase occurence of large group PVP. Primarily because it seems to solve the problem by making the game more complicated.
And Shlimazel, you make a good point about drying up open world pvp. This is where the correct balance of things comes into play. Perhaps simply keeping my arena idea to the "newb" version solely -- and thus more advanced PvP with better ships/weapons, etc would have to be sought in the non-arena areas. In other words, perhaps having only a bus-war PvP arena available is an option...
Personally I see no real danger in drying up open world PvP because I would think people would prefer to play on their own team, if they were given a choice. The arena idea would evenly split people, irrespective of nationhood, standing, or guild affiliation (at least my version of it would).
And Shlimazel, you make a good point about drying up open world pvp. This is where the correct balance of things comes into play. Perhaps simply keeping my arena idea to the "newb" version solely -- and thus more advanced PvP with better ships/weapons, etc would have to be sought in the non-arena areas. In other words, perhaps having only a bus-war PvP arena available is an option...
Personally I see no real danger in drying up open world PvP because I would think people would prefer to play on their own team, if they were given a choice. The arena idea would evenly split people, irrespective of nationhood, standing, or guild affiliation (at least my version of it would).
-1 for the arena
First, I like savets idea of aggressive bots taking over any grey space station and occasionally with a pair of queens circling the station as some bots mine the roids and others defend (not queen escorts that dont shoot). And rarely, a levi could sit on top of a any grey space station with it's entourage. Station sectors taken over by bots do not have a functioning nfz, but the station is still accessible if you can get by the more aggressive bots and have standing. For conq stations, the key is till required since bots aren't interested in the stations contents, just the resources in the system, if the devs give them a way to kill the turrets easily. If you can get pass the bots, you can conquer it, but if the bots are still there, the station will not launch turrets since they'd get destroyed by the bots.
Second, have a pair of queens with a larger group of aggressive bots fly through grey space wormholes and occasionally set up camp at the wormholes in grey space as they check out the resources in the system. Maybe, they could be coming from the levi sector.
The stations could occasionally request assistance on a grey space channel players could monitor. Since players would want access to these systems they would have to team up or choose to shoot at their enemies and the bots. The station could announce on that channel when it has been cleared and the nfz is reactivated.
First, I like savets idea of aggressive bots taking over any grey space station and occasionally with a pair of queens circling the station as some bots mine the roids and others defend (not queen escorts that dont shoot). And rarely, a levi could sit on top of a any grey space station with it's entourage. Station sectors taken over by bots do not have a functioning nfz, but the station is still accessible if you can get by the more aggressive bots and have standing. For conq stations, the key is till required since bots aren't interested in the stations contents, just the resources in the system, if the devs give them a way to kill the turrets easily. If you can get pass the bots, you can conquer it, but if the bots are still there, the station will not launch turrets since they'd get destroyed by the bots.
Second, have a pair of queens with a larger group of aggressive bots fly through grey space wormholes and occasionally set up camp at the wormholes in grey space as they check out the resources in the system. Maybe, they could be coming from the levi sector.
The stations could occasionally request assistance on a grey space channel players could monitor. Since players would want access to these systems they would have to team up or choose to shoot at their enemies and the bots. The station could announce on that channel when it has been cleared and the nfz is reactivated.
greenwall - well perhaps not exactly manhours, but the question is why will they go to the arena ? Why would anyone do anything in the game where it requires self motivating to find, organize, schedule, or otherwise try to chat advertise for PVP.
In general people want to PVP but at the same time the purpose for doing it is not required. Therefore, you don't have to do it, don't have to attend; and simply no real reason for it.
Don't get me wrong the reason is for the fun of it, but there is no goal oriented reason in game for doing it.
What would arena mean ? Would there be structured arena battles ? And why would they go there ? What would be the goal ?
I'm not saying manhours necessarily but something goal oriented that requires them to be there. Required PVP battles for some purpose that you would need to participate in order to achieve something else in game that you want to play with.
This is the model for many immersion type games.
The problem is the scope is too broad and everyone has too many ideas.
If at least the focus could be narrowed with overwhelming consenses that:
1. YES PVP participation is week.
2. EVERYONE would like to see more PVP
3. List of objective that MIGHT create urgency to do more PVP(either more desireable or REQUIRED in order to acheive some other in game goal.
The question is would more people play and stay if there were more PVP without the requirement in order to acheive some other in game goal ?
I just don't see how they would simply do it just for the entertainment of twittling their keyboards in the hopes getting a kill.
There must be some in game goal involved or people just won't stick around IMO.
Even Nation Wars attracted people for a scheduled event, at least mostly.
Why not a structured nation war mission every 20min.
Make it required to earn something in game. I don't know what, I'm just considering something that might also increase the value of credits by adding another layer to the mix. Manhours would create higher value credits and ad another trade item that can only be earned through PVP of some type.
Some subsequent results might create more trading opportunities somehow too.
If the commodity was hard to obtain and required PVP, it could convert to PVP for cap ship parts
However, I guess it could be PVP for credits too so you could use that to pay for parts hauled etc.
One of the problems I see that overlaps all of this is the requirement to actually be in and on the ship with items that you want to pay haulers and builders to deliver.
UPS doesn't require you to be there why not give haulers the ability to drop off packages and assign them to the buyer. The buyer can take receipt of delivery when the go to the station at some point.
The station would automatically charge them for additional storage if it is needed.
I don't know there seems to be a lot of gaps that overlap and actually create a week PVP environment.
I don't think it would be too complicated to fix it either. Minor tweeks could solve this IMO.
Well that's about all I can say about it but I agree with your post in general.
It needs something but what ?
In general people want to PVP but at the same time the purpose for doing it is not required. Therefore, you don't have to do it, don't have to attend; and simply no real reason for it.
Don't get me wrong the reason is for the fun of it, but there is no goal oriented reason in game for doing it.
What would arena mean ? Would there be structured arena battles ? And why would they go there ? What would be the goal ?
I'm not saying manhours necessarily but something goal oriented that requires them to be there. Required PVP battles for some purpose that you would need to participate in order to achieve something else in game that you want to play with.
This is the model for many immersion type games.
The problem is the scope is too broad and everyone has too many ideas.
If at least the focus could be narrowed with overwhelming consenses that:
1. YES PVP participation is week.
2. EVERYONE would like to see more PVP
3. List of objective that MIGHT create urgency to do more PVP(either more desireable or REQUIRED in order to acheive some other in game goal.
The question is would more people play and stay if there were more PVP without the requirement in order to acheive some other in game goal ?
I just don't see how they would simply do it just for the entertainment of twittling their keyboards in the hopes getting a kill.
There must be some in game goal involved or people just won't stick around IMO.
Even Nation Wars attracted people for a scheduled event, at least mostly.
Why not a structured nation war mission every 20min.
Make it required to earn something in game. I don't know what, I'm just considering something that might also increase the value of credits by adding another layer to the mix. Manhours would create higher value credits and ad another trade item that can only be earned through PVP of some type.
Some subsequent results might create more trading opportunities somehow too.
If the commodity was hard to obtain and required PVP, it could convert to PVP for cap ship parts
However, I guess it could be PVP for credits too so you could use that to pay for parts hauled etc.
One of the problems I see that overlaps all of this is the requirement to actually be in and on the ship with items that you want to pay haulers and builders to deliver.
UPS doesn't require you to be there why not give haulers the ability to drop off packages and assign them to the buyer. The buyer can take receipt of delivery when the go to the station at some point.
The station would automatically charge them for additional storage if it is needed.
I don't know there seems to be a lot of gaps that overlap and actually create a week PVP environment.
I don't think it would be too complicated to fix it either. Minor tweeks could solve this IMO.
Well that's about all I can say about it but I agree with your post in general.
It needs something but what ?