Forums » Suggestions
A few tweaks to the unfinished turret system would go a long way in improving the quality of the game.
As it stands, all turrets have infinite ammo, but we know ship turrets are not intended to have unlimited ammo. It was patched this way in VO 1.8.259 and then quickly reversed due to community outrage.
Well, I'm here to generate some more community outrage; not about the fact that we have unlimited ammo on tridents (that's fine) but the fact that you can deliver that ammo consistently contributing to lag and generally being absurd, especially in the case of firecracker missiles.
The best solution would be as follows:
- Re-introduce the depletion of ammo from turrets on vessels that aren't Tridents, these vessels are not intended to have the resources to reload a turret anyway.
- For tridents, introduce a timeout period in which the turret is 'reloading' after you exit a turret bay that is empty. Currently there is no timeout, players merely hop straight back in and keep firing. This limit currently applies to NPC capship swarm turrets, for instance. As a starting point the reload delay should be about the same as the current NPC trident swarms.
These changes are not trivial in terms of gameplay impact - spamming inordinate amount of missiles from tridents is extremely disruptive to anybody trying to conduct a dogfight that even remotely resembles an actual dogfight rather than spending all day running from missile beeps.
The situation has only remained this way because many players who do not play VO for its combat features see immense value in the ability to disrupt normal dog-fighting combat. These players might be in the majority, but they are not right.
As it stands, all turrets have infinite ammo, but we know ship turrets are not intended to have unlimited ammo. It was patched this way in VO 1.8.259 and then quickly reversed due to community outrage.
Well, I'm here to generate some more community outrage; not about the fact that we have unlimited ammo on tridents (that's fine) but the fact that you can deliver that ammo consistently contributing to lag and generally being absurd, especially in the case of firecracker missiles.
The best solution would be as follows:
- Re-introduce the depletion of ammo from turrets on vessels that aren't Tridents, these vessels are not intended to have the resources to reload a turret anyway.
- For tridents, introduce a timeout period in which the turret is 'reloading' after you exit a turret bay that is empty. Currently there is no timeout, players merely hop straight back in and keep firing. This limit currently applies to NPC capship swarm turrets, for instance. As a starting point the reload delay should be about the same as the current NPC trident swarms.
These changes are not trivial in terms of gameplay impact - spamming inordinate amount of missiles from tridents is extremely disruptive to anybody trying to conduct a dogfight that even remotely resembles an actual dogfight rather than spending all day running from missile beeps.
The situation has only remained this way because many players who do not play VO for its combat features see immense value in the ability to disrupt normal dog-fighting combat. These players might be in the majority, but they are not right.
Nope. You only exist to rubbish the game so go away.
I could easily post my suggestions under one of my pseudonyms so that pretentious gits such as yourself don't know who's posting them as I have often in the past. You so often agree with my pseudonyms that it's quite amusing to watch when you straight -1 suggestions purely on the basis that I'm suggesting them. Greenwall is another big fan of my identical suggestions posted under pseudonyms.
Long story short, if you can't criticize on the merits of the suggestion, you're summarily ignored.
Long story short, if you can't criticize on the merits of the suggestion, you're summarily ignored.
As it stands, all turrets have infinite ammo, but we know ship turrets are not intended to have unlimited ammo. It was patched this way in VO 1.8.259 and then quickly reversed due to community outrage.
Yes, because despite the fact that they have unlimited ammo, killing anything but an idiotic NPC that never dodges them is nearly impossible, and even most of those require an immediate reload.
A single Gemini Missile Turret has 18 missiles for a total of 17100 damage assuming every single missile hits and detonates precisely at ground zero on the target's hull, which never happens. Geminis detonate at least 10m away from their target, which omits the inner 33% of their pathetic splash radius where the most damage is done. This distance ends up being much greater when moving, often so far that the missiles explode and do not even damage the ship they exploded on.
Firecracker Missiles have the same concussion blast as one Sunflare rocket. That's barely enough to knock the nose of a fighter for half a second. The only time they're even remotely effective is in massive quantities, yet their launcher holds only 6.
If people were dying left and right to "missile spamming Tridents" I'd say this would be a problem that needs to be addressed. They aren't and it's not. If anything we need better turret weapons and turret placement that promotes the use of skill-based energy weapons that have to be aimed.
I'm criticizing this horrible suggestion on it's lack of merits. Go whine in the RP forum about your pseudonyms and the complaints of their cohorts.
Yes, because despite the fact that they have unlimited ammo, killing anything but an idiotic NPC that never dodges them is nearly impossible, and even most of those require an immediate reload.
A single Gemini Missile Turret has 18 missiles for a total of 17100 damage assuming every single missile hits and detonates precisely at ground zero on the target's hull, which never happens. Geminis detonate at least 10m away from their target, which omits the inner 33% of their pathetic splash radius where the most damage is done. This distance ends up being much greater when moving, often so far that the missiles explode and do not even damage the ship they exploded on.
Firecracker Missiles have the same concussion blast as one Sunflare rocket. That's barely enough to knock the nose of a fighter for half a second. The only time they're even remotely effective is in massive quantities, yet their launcher holds only 6.
If people were dying left and right to "missile spamming Tridents" I'd say this would be a problem that needs to be addressed. They aren't and it's not. If anything we need better turret weapons and turret placement that promotes the use of skill-based energy weapons that have to be aimed.
I'm criticizing this horrible suggestion on it's lack of merits. Go whine in the RP forum about your pseudonyms and the complaints of their cohorts.
Yeah sorry mate, you've just written paragraphs criticizing geminis and firecrackers. It's not reason to keep the fire rate unlimited just because the weapons are bad.
Unlimited fire rate capswarms would be shocking - game breaking even - we know they create lag.
Fire rate changes are a pre-requisite to improving player controlled turret missiles, we can't have swarms spamming at the rate firecrackers and gems do, and by the by - if the weapons are so ineffective - what does it matter if you have to have a short break to fire them between?
It's a rhetorical question, it doesn't matter. I find myself once again arguing for a change that is more than likely to happen anyway and you once again arguing irrelevant points against merely because you want to oppose me.. which is why I don't use the pseudonym.
Unlimited fire rate capswarms would be shocking - game breaking even - we know they create lag.
Fire rate changes are a pre-requisite to improving player controlled turret missiles, we can't have swarms spamming at the rate firecrackers and gems do, and by the by - if the weapons are so ineffective - what does it matter if you have to have a short break to fire them between?
It's a rhetorical question, it doesn't matter. I find myself once again arguing for a change that is more than likely to happen anyway and you once again arguing irrelevant points against merely because you want to oppose me.. which is why I don't use the pseudonym.
+1 to the actual suggestion.
However, the reasoning listed in the OP is just wrong. Turret spam is not effective in seriously disrupting anybody's ability to dogfight, unless they are trying to dogfight with the trident, or right outside the trident, both of which are just plain silly. Here's an idea: Move away from the trident. They're slower than dialup. Take your dueling buddy and go outside the missile range and fight over there, or go get an empty sector. If the dueling buddy insists on fighting under cover of the turrets, guess what? He isn't a dueling buddy in the first place; he just wants you to kill his friend's trident. So do it.
However, the reasoning listed in the OP is just wrong. Turret spam is not effective in seriously disrupting anybody's ability to dogfight, unless they are trying to dogfight with the trident, or right outside the trident, both of which are just plain silly. Here's an idea: Move away from the trident. They're slower than dialup. Take your dueling buddy and go outside the missile range and fight over there, or go get an empty sector. If the dueling buddy insists on fighting under cover of the turrets, guess what? He isn't a dueling buddy in the first place; he just wants you to kill his friend's trident. So do it.
The only reason I'm even commenting on this is because there's a large portion of the player base who doesn't bother to slog through the suggestions forum to argue against things that will negatively affect the game that we enjoy.
First off, even capital swarms will be ineffective against experienced players and you know it. They do the same damage as Chaos swarms but take a boredom-inducing 45 seconds to load each salvo.
That's 6800 damage, not even enough to kill a Centurion IBG assuming every missile hits dead on. (they never do) The Geminis we have now are better than what you're proposing as a solution.
Unlimited fire rate capswarms would be shocking - game breaking even - we know they create lag.
This is funny, because it's exactly what we already have with players docking and undocking with swarm rags. Where's this lag? The argument that swarms cause lag is from an ancient bug with the missile trails that caused a massive framerate drop, which has since been fixed. Stop perpetuating misinformation.
if the weapons are so ineffective - what does it matter if you have to have a short break to fire them between?
Because the only way they can be even remotely effective is to launch a LOT of them in a short period of time.
For reference, even you opposed what you're suggesting, so I have to wonder if you're not just venting because players were shooting lots of missiles at you, your pseudonyms, and their cohorts. This change is more than likely to happen already because it DID, and the devs realized that fire rate changes are not pre-requisite to improving player controlled turret missiles. The weapons and their locations need to be fixed before we make what we have totally useless.
First off, even capital swarms will be ineffective against experienced players and you know it. They do the same damage as Chaos swarms but take a boredom-inducing 45 seconds to load each salvo.
That's 6800 damage, not even enough to kill a Centurion IBG assuming every missile hits dead on. (they never do) The Geminis we have now are better than what you're proposing as a solution.
Unlimited fire rate capswarms would be shocking - game breaking even - we know they create lag.
This is funny, because it's exactly what we already have with players docking and undocking with swarm rags. Where's this lag? The argument that swarms cause lag is from an ancient bug with the missile trails that caused a massive framerate drop, which has since been fixed. Stop perpetuating misinformation.
if the weapons are so ineffective - what does it matter if you have to have a short break to fire them between?
Because the only way they can be even remotely effective is to launch a LOT of them in a short period of time.
For reference, even you opposed what you're suggesting, so I have to wonder if you're not just venting because players were shooting lots of missiles at you, your pseudonyms, and their cohorts. This change is more than likely to happen already because it DID, and the devs realized that fire rate changes are not pre-requisite to improving player controlled turret missiles. The weapons and their locations need to be fixed before we make what we have totally useless.
Better re-read the OP, because my post in that thread is in no-way at all inconsistent with my suggestion. It's like you didn't even read it but since its fun and dramatic to pretend that i've contradicted myself you post that anyway.
The fire rate changes are for NPC turrets, we need the fire rate changes on all turrets and I see no reason why non-capital ships should retain unlimited ammo. "Multiple reloads if ammo based" was the term I used, which means not unlimited.
Players have been shooting and spamming missiles at me for a long long time, you'll say and do anything to attempt to try and paint my suggestions as 'whining'. It's what you do, and poorly at that.
"Here's an idea: Move away from the trident."
You're only thinking of duels. Think about conquerable stations or other objective based combat scenarios. Tridents should have some holding power there; but it shouldn't be in the form of endless missile spam.
The case of the swarm rags using the trident as a reload point is good because of the fact that there are intervals between when the swarms are fired. The constant and relentless beeping and endless stream of missiles coming out is the problem.
The fire rate changes are for NPC turrets, we need the fire rate changes on all turrets and I see no reason why non-capital ships should retain unlimited ammo. "Multiple reloads if ammo based" was the term I used, which means not unlimited.
Players have been shooting and spamming missiles at me for a long long time, you'll say and do anything to attempt to try and paint my suggestions as 'whining'. It's what you do, and poorly at that.
"Here's an idea: Move away from the trident."
You're only thinking of duels. Think about conquerable stations or other objective based combat scenarios. Tridents should have some holding power there; but it shouldn't be in the form of endless missile spam.
The case of the swarm rags using the trident as a reload point is good because of the fact that there are intervals between when the swarms are fired. The constant and relentless beeping and endless stream of missiles coming out is the problem.
The fire rate changes are for NPC turrets
No, the fire rate changes were there to fix a bug that I reported which allowed a plugin to fire Geminis and Firecrackers as quickly as you could switch turrets, nearly as fast as a Gatling Turret. This also allowed people to bypass the pre-existing 45s reload time that Capital Swarms had. Geminis fire once every 1.5s now, as their stats intend.
No, the fire rate changes were there to fix a bug that I reported which allowed a plugin to fire Geminis and Firecrackers as quickly as you could switch turrets, nearly as fast as a Gatling Turret. This also allowed people to bypass the pre-existing 45s reload time that Capital Swarms had. Geminis fire once every 1.5s now, as their stats intend.
Geminis fire once every 1.5s, but their reload time is instant once you leave and rejoin a turret spot. To clarify, I propose there be a wait time between clips.
Think of capital swarms as having only a one shot clip. So once you empty your 16 geminis, you have to wait 30 seconds before 16 more are reloaded. Etc.. for firecrackers blablabla
Then the clip reload time and the individual clip sizes have meaning whereas at the moment they do not due to the nature of the instant reload by leaving and retaking your turret spot.
Think of capital swarms as having only a one shot clip. So once you empty your 16 geminis, you have to wait 30 seconds before 16 more are reloaded. Etc.. for firecrackers blablabla
Then the clip reload time and the individual clip sizes have meaning whereas at the moment they do not due to the nature of the instant reload by leaving and retaking your turret spot.
Geminis fire once every 1.5s, but their reload time is instant once you leave and rejoin a turret spot. To clarify, I propose there be a wait time between clips.
You didn't actually read my prior post did you?
Gemini turrets never fire faster than 1.5s per missile anymore. Period.
You didn't actually read my prior post did you?
Gemini turrets never fire faster than 1.5s per missile anymore. Period.
"You're only thinking of duels. Think about conquerable stations or other objective based combat scenarios."
Station conquest is not a dog fight. You specifically complained that turrets disrupt dog fights, and I rebuffed that. If you think the status quo is bad for station conquest, then you should have said that in the first place. Which is my point. I like the suggestion, but the arguments you made to support it in the OP are very poor.
Arf: I'm pretty sure TRS understood that. He means that after firing all 16 missiles (over a span of 24 seconds), he wants there to be a significant delay while the turret reloads before you can start firing again. That's the part he's saying is "instant"; he doesn't mean to imply that they can be shot faster than their delay.
Station conquest is not a dog fight. You specifically complained that turrets disrupt dog fights, and I rebuffed that. If you think the status quo is bad for station conquest, then you should have said that in the first place. Which is my point. I like the suggestion, but the arguments you made to support it in the OP are very poor.
Arf: I'm pretty sure TRS understood that. He means that after firing all 16 missiles (over a span of 24 seconds), he wants there to be a significant delay while the turret reloads before you can start firing again. That's the part he's saying is "instant"; he doesn't mean to imply that they can be shot faster than their delay.
What do you expect from a lawyer?
First I'd like to say that I only +1 ideas that are good. I've even +1'ed good TRS ideas.
Second:
- There is nothing in the link posted in the OP about turrets not being intended to have unlimited ammo. You are taking what Ray said and extrapolating a false conclusion.
-There is no evidence pointing to geminis and firecrackers fired from tridents contributing to lag. Moreover, the only people who would know whether or not it DOES contribute to lag would be the devs. Are you a dev, TRS?
-"I'm here to generate some more community outrage..about..the fact that you can deliver that ammo consistently [which is] generally...absurd, especially in the case of firecracker missiles."
Sounds like your treatment in the Tissue Room isn't working, TRS. Lets try this exercise: Post a suggestion in the Suggestions Forum saying that all Auto Aim features of any kind should be removed from this game, with one reason being that it's a skill-based game, and anything that lends aiming assistance goes against the concept of what skill is. Follow that up with a Treatise on "What Skill Is", in which you should contain something about how the only thing that matters in VO is precise aiming, and that all other forms of attack, whether it's proximity explosions, guided weapons, or auto-aiming weapons, go against the pure and holy form of battle known as markmanship. Lastly, it might bring you additional pleasure to point out that in RL if militaries had stuck to using swords and bow and arrows, the world would be in a better place and all those who have died could have been distinguished with more legitimate honor.
IN OTHERWORDS: the OP lacks any credible reason for making the suggested changes.
So, -1.
- There is nothing in the link posted in the OP about turrets not being intended to have unlimited ammo. You are taking what Ray said and extrapolating a false conclusion.
-There is no evidence pointing to geminis and firecrackers fired from tridents contributing to lag. Moreover, the only people who would know whether or not it DOES contribute to lag would be the devs. Are you a dev, TRS?
-"I'm here to generate some more community outrage..about..the fact that you can deliver that ammo consistently [which is] generally...absurd, especially in the case of firecracker missiles."
Sounds like your treatment in the Tissue Room isn't working, TRS. Lets try this exercise: Post a suggestion in the Suggestions Forum saying that all Auto Aim features of any kind should be removed from this game, with one reason being that it's a skill-based game, and anything that lends aiming assistance goes against the concept of what skill is. Follow that up with a Treatise on "What Skill Is", in which you should contain something about how the only thing that matters in VO is precise aiming, and that all other forms of attack, whether it's proximity explosions, guided weapons, or auto-aiming weapons, go against the pure and holy form of battle known as markmanship. Lastly, it might bring you additional pleasure to point out that in RL if militaries had stuck to using swords and bow and arrows, the world would be in a better place and all those who have died could have been distinguished with more legitimate honor.
IN OTHERWORDS: the OP lacks any credible reason for making the suggested changes.
So, -1.
And will argue to hell anyone who criticizes his ideas because he can't handle having a bad one.
-1 for any suggestion that will make already ineffective turrets even worse. Playerbase wants stronger turrets, not weaker ones. Bump the idea again only when (if?) dent turrets are over-powered.
Can I get some graphs and charts here? All these text things are hard to follow.
Clearly, this is a trolling post, but I think this chart summarizes the OP's motivations nicely.
"I DONT WANT TO HAVE TO BLOW UP THEIR TRIDENT TO MAKE THEM STOP SHOOTING MISSILES AT ME T_T. DEVS: MAKE THEM STOP!"
Yes ARF, we use that chart in some of our seminars in The Tissue Room. It's quite illustrative. Though some Serco have commented that the face portrayed resembles a typical happy serco, suggesting that it was created by an Itani who's only experience seeing raging sercos has been as they explode (and thus never seeing the true hideousness of a serco noob's rage face).