Forums » Suggestions
weapons idea....
hey i have been called stupid so much in life that i just kinda accepted it and know i just refer to myself as stupid... lol but yeah...
ya know, now that school has started up again i understood everything you said Celebrim. besides that i used unique and implementable so much lately that i have gotten used to saying it. lol
-io
ya know, now that school has started up again i understood everything you said Celebrim. besides that i used unique and implementable so much lately that i have gotten used to saying it. lol
-io
well ya know, the devs could make it where players can make their own weapons designed with options left by the devs themselves....
example: someone picks the highest speed for their weapon they cant have the strongest damage (happens automatically no choice for the player) but they can have a reasonable firing rate/repeat
not sure if that is really what the devs would want in this game but they might think of something like that...
-io
this should go in suggestions shouldnt it?
*note i moved this from the bugs forum cause i am in school right now dont get on me for making it sound so stupid...
thanx
example: someone picks the highest speed for their weapon they cant have the strongest damage (happens automatically no choice for the player) but they can have a reasonable firing rate/repeat
not sure if that is really what the devs would want in this game but they might think of something like that...
-io
this should go in suggestions shouldnt it?
*note i moved this from the bugs forum cause i am in school right now dont get on me for making it sound so stupid...
thanx
Interesting idea... but what makes up crrent weapons? Let's see.. auto-targeting, rate of fire, damage, speed, energy per shot, port, cost of weapon... if I missed anything.. sorry.
How would this custom weapon be priced? flat rate, or pay more for a weapon with more potential? I can think of how to impliment it, as could others here no doubt, but I don't feel this would have a great benefit to gameplay, as well as creating lag on slower connections.
I don't know what info is sent to the client by the server telling the client "Hey, you're being shot!" but unless this is re-written it's my belief that implimenting a custom weapon would increase the volume of information that needs to be sent across the net. Remember, one of the targets of the game is to be playable over a modem line.
How would this custom weapon be priced? flat rate, or pay more for a weapon with more potential? I can think of how to impliment it, as could others here no doubt, but I don't feel this would have a great benefit to gameplay, as well as creating lag on slower connections.
I don't know what info is sent to the client by the server telling the client "Hey, you're being shot!" but unless this is re-written it's my belief that implimenting a custom weapon would increase the volume of information that needs to be sent across the net. Remember, one of the targets of the game is to be playable over a modem line.
I've tried my hand at creating formula's that express the current weapons as a numerical value that is indicative of quality.
It is by no means an easy thing to do, and therefore it would by no means be easy to create a system for creating custom weapons that would produce 'fair' weapons.
It is by no means an easy thing to do, and therefore it would by no means be easy to create a system for creating custom weapons that would produce 'fair' weapons.
Celebrim, that's exactly the kind of backend the devs would need to do to get custom weapons. Problem is that things that look good and work on paper may not work in game. I think that custom weapons would take extensive testing if implimented.. moreso than the current non-custom weapons.
well, look at games like Dome Wars for mac. You could make uber weapons, but the price for them was through the roof...
Urza: Price isn't the issue. It is easy to create a formula for prices of weapons _if_ you have a formula which accurately assesses the quality of a weapon.
But (for example) consider the problem of determining the value of velocity in a guided vs. an unguided weapon in Vendetta. Unguided weapons have a velocity which depends on the speed of the firing vehical. Guided weapons do not. The actual increase in the effectiveness of an unguided weapon is some linear ammount that depends on the average 'combat velocity' at which weapons are fired. What is that velocity exactly? Not only do I not know, I suspect it very much depends on what sort of ships are usually flown. On the other hand, the increase in a effectiveness fo a guided weapon depends in some non-linear fashion on the average 'combat velocity' and manueverability of both the munition and the 'average target'. Why is this so? Because guided weapons with infinite manueverability but lower speed than their targets would almost never hit, but as soon as the speed jumps up higher than the target's speed, a guided weapon with infinite manueverability would go from basically never hitting to basically always hitting. As manueverability of the guided munition decreases, a range of 'hit probablities' depending on human reaction times opens up about that break even point.
So if you knew exactly how effective an unguided munition (like a rocket) was, exactly what would the stats of a guided munition that was exactly balanced with that munition (and thus identically priced) be?
On another thread, I showed that the value of a proximity radius depended in large part on the profile of the 'average target'. If the average target has a very low profile, then a proximity radius is in a non-linear fashion much more valuable than a calculation might otherwise indicate.
How valuable, relative to a weapon which doesn't consume ammunition, is a weapon that holds 16 rounds of ammunition? 12 rounds? 2 rounds? 1000 rounds? How much should the price of a given weapon change if its ammunition capacity is increased frmo 10 to 20 rounds?
In short, its very complex to determine absolutely how changing a weapon will effect its balance in a reasonably complex simulation like Vendetta.
But (for example) consider the problem of determining the value of velocity in a guided vs. an unguided weapon in Vendetta. Unguided weapons have a velocity which depends on the speed of the firing vehical. Guided weapons do not. The actual increase in the effectiveness of an unguided weapon is some linear ammount that depends on the average 'combat velocity' at which weapons are fired. What is that velocity exactly? Not only do I not know, I suspect it very much depends on what sort of ships are usually flown. On the other hand, the increase in a effectiveness fo a guided weapon depends in some non-linear fashion on the average 'combat velocity' and manueverability of both the munition and the 'average target'. Why is this so? Because guided weapons with infinite manueverability but lower speed than their targets would almost never hit, but as soon as the speed jumps up higher than the target's speed, a guided weapon with infinite manueverability would go from basically never hitting to basically always hitting. As manueverability of the guided munition decreases, a range of 'hit probablities' depending on human reaction times opens up about that break even point.
So if you knew exactly how effective an unguided munition (like a rocket) was, exactly what would the stats of a guided munition that was exactly balanced with that munition (and thus identically priced) be?
On another thread, I showed that the value of a proximity radius depended in large part on the profile of the 'average target'. If the average target has a very low profile, then a proximity radius is in a non-linear fashion much more valuable than a calculation might otherwise indicate.
How valuable, relative to a weapon which doesn't consume ammunition, is a weapon that holds 16 rounds of ammunition? 12 rounds? 2 rounds? 1000 rounds? How much should the price of a given weapon change if its ammunition capacity is increased frmo 10 to 20 rounds?
In short, its very complex to determine absolutely how changing a weapon will effect its balance in a reasonably complex simulation like Vendetta.
look im 15 so if you might want to know that i have no idea what you just said...
on the other hand i added this idea to see if as a community the players of this game could think of an affecent idea that would be plausable and pleasable to all players...
the idea is from WWF No Mercy. in the game the player is allowed to make a person of their own. they are given a total number of points. you cant have more than 5 points to 1 given area and a weapon even in every category (offense and defense) is 4. so you get a minimum of 1 for each category. and you get a set number of points to use in each of the categories...
for instance: you want fast speed with medium damage and low accuracy (you plan on this to be the deversion weapon so you can use another better weapon to acctually kill them) you would have 5-speed 3-damage and 2-accuracy... add in the other stuff that you would mentioned and boom you have a weapon...
my ideas arent original or truely unique of my own thinking. sorry if it offends you in any sort of way...
-io
btw i thought this idea would make it to where a player could expeirence more than just 1 set up for all the ships... you see people with tri flare valks all the time, this idea would help people find a better way of letting people gain skill for different weapons...
on the other hand i added this idea to see if as a community the players of this game could think of an affecent idea that would be plausable and pleasable to all players...
the idea is from WWF No Mercy. in the game the player is allowed to make a person of their own. they are given a total number of points. you cant have more than 5 points to 1 given area and a weapon even in every category (offense and defense) is 4. so you get a minimum of 1 for each category. and you get a set number of points to use in each of the categories...
for instance: you want fast speed with medium damage and low accuracy (you plan on this to be the deversion weapon so you can use another better weapon to acctually kill them) you would have 5-speed 3-damage and 2-accuracy... add in the other stuff that you would mentioned and boom you have a weapon...
my ideas arent original or truely unique of my own thinking. sorry if it offends you in any sort of way...
-io
btw i thought this idea would make it to where a player could expeirence more than just 1 set up for all the ships... you see people with tri flare valks all the time, this idea would help people find a better way of letting people gain skill for different weapons...
1 more thing: i thought of something that i forgot to add in: by what i have seen lately people who make rockets to a reapeat mode so i think it would be safe to say that any rocket would have a set price no matter what kind you are creating...
flares = 75c (i think)
swarms = ??? (sorry dont use them much)
my idea would say that your personal weapon would be: like 100c per rocket
for energy: the amount of energy would have to be based on what the speed and damage would be...
example:
gauss = good damage but kinda slow - slow recovery
tach = bad damage but really fast - quick recovery
its just an idea, i wanted to be able to add to this game in some way, not just bug the devs and guides... lol
-io
im hoping that the community could get an idea of making this implementable and reasonable for players to use and devs to add intot the game...
flares = 75c (i think)
swarms = ??? (sorry dont use them much)
my idea would say that your personal weapon would be: like 100c per rocket
for energy: the amount of energy would have to be based on what the speed and damage would be...
example:
gauss = good damage but kinda slow - slow recovery
tach = bad damage but really fast - quick recovery
its just an idea, i wanted to be able to add to this game in some way, not just bug the devs and guides... lol
-io
im hoping that the community could get an idea of making this implementable and reasonable for players to use and devs to add intot the game...
I don't believe anyone is offended by your idea specter, Celebrim just thinks on a higher level than most of us.
As for custom weapons, I do not think that they are an option that would work well in vendetta. here are my reasons.
1. any weapon that is not a part of the game stored on your home computer (the client) would require more information to be passed back and forth. this would slow down sectors and create additional lag. (this btw is one of the reasons why totally customizable paint jobs and ship decorations is unlikely to be a part of vendetta.)
2. The ships are allready quite customizable, and certantly the weapons we have now are just a sample of what is to come as the game grows. As far as people only using 1 or 2 weapons types right now, that will be sorted out at another time. This is a test and not necessarily a sample of the final game, the developers are getting the basic setup of the game in place, and will more than likely be totally revamping the ships, ports and weapons at a later date. (they've allready done it a few times, so i'm sure there are a few more coming)
I hope that my points are clear, if not please reply with any questions and i will attempt to further explain.
Creating a custom weapon is somewhat different from creating a character, regardless of the game you are playing. A character only has to be balanced against other characters. A weapon needs to be balanced against other weapons, characters(in vendettas case the ships themselves) and the environment it is to be used in.
As for custom weapons, I do not think that they are an option that would work well in vendetta. here are my reasons.
1. any weapon that is not a part of the game stored on your home computer (the client) would require more information to be passed back and forth. this would slow down sectors and create additional lag. (this btw is one of the reasons why totally customizable paint jobs and ship decorations is unlikely to be a part of vendetta.)
2. The ships are allready quite customizable, and certantly the weapons we have now are just a sample of what is to come as the game grows. As far as people only using 1 or 2 weapons types right now, that will be sorted out at another time. This is a test and not necessarily a sample of the final game, the developers are getting the basic setup of the game in place, and will more than likely be totally revamping the ships, ports and weapons at a later date. (they've allready done it a few times, so i'm sure there are a few more coming)
I hope that my points are clear, if not please reply with any questions and i will attempt to further explain.
Creating a custom weapon is somewhat different from creating a character, regardless of the game you are playing. A character only has to be balanced against other characters. A weapon needs to be balanced against other weapons, characters(in vendettas case the ships themselves) and the environment it is to be used in.
true i guess i was just thinking that it would be good to have customized weapons so that a pilot could get used to a weapon they liked...
here is a question: if the lag problem and all could be solved would this be a good thing to implement???
-io
here is a question: if the lag problem and all could be solved would this be a good thing to implement???
-io
spectre: I'm not offended. I'm a little bemused by the fact that a young man that can use and spell the words 'unique' and 'implementable' feels the need to pretend to be stupid, but that's another topic.
I imagine that the backend of the Wrestling simulation you talk about is probably more complex than you imagine and was itself something that was tweaked through playtesting.
A custum weapons creator for Vendetta is an order of magnitude more complex. Consider how many variables there are already:
1) Damage per shot.
2) Shots per second.
3) Energy per shot.
4) Velocity.
5) Guided or unguided.
5b) Manueverability rating.
5c) Arc in which the lock is maintained.
6) Proximity or impact.
6b) Proximity radius.
7) Blast radius.
8) Stowed ammunition.
9) Arc in which aiming correction takes place.
10) Weapon slot that the weapon fits.
11) 'Charging' or not.
Worse yet, none of those has a simple linear relationship with the quality of the weapon, by which I mean there isn't a one of those for which it always holds true that if you double the value that the weapon is only twice as good. For example, a weapon that does twice as much damage per shot may be roughly twice as good over a certain range of values, but eventually you get to the point where you have a 'first strike effect'. By that I mean that the weapon does so much damage that it destroys the target with the first shot before the target can get a chance to fight back. A weapon that does 2X damage and fires only Y times a second, is usually strictly better than a weapon that fires 2Y times a second and does only X damage because of the first strike effect. But how much better? It's kinda hard to say. We could do 'simulations' in which we estimated the probablity of any shot hitting the target, and determining how often the ship with the 2X weapon beat the ship with the X weapon. You could do this yourself by flipping a coin. Even though the X ship shoots twice as often, it needs to hit twice as often to win. Fifty percent of the time it never gets even a chance at the second shot, and assuming both start shooting at the same time the X ship is only on its third shot by the time that the 2X ship gets its second.
Or take for example mines. Mines are basically weapons that have a velocity of zero. But that clearly implies that a weapon has some value even if it doesn't move. How do you determine how 'accurate' a weapon is if it doesn't move?
Galorin: I think you are absolutely right.
UPDATE: I actually wrote a little program to do this and was surprised how quickly the 'first strike' effect I was talking about becomes significant. It's actually a strong enough of an effect that its relevant to the design of weapons with the comparitively 'weak' damage per shot of a tachyon or graviton, which definately surprises me.
I imagine that the backend of the Wrestling simulation you talk about is probably more complex than you imagine and was itself something that was tweaked through playtesting.
A custum weapons creator for Vendetta is an order of magnitude more complex. Consider how many variables there are already:
1) Damage per shot.
2) Shots per second.
3) Energy per shot.
4) Velocity.
5) Guided or unguided.
5b) Manueverability rating.
5c) Arc in which the lock is maintained.
6) Proximity or impact.
6b) Proximity radius.
7) Blast radius.
8) Stowed ammunition.
9) Arc in which aiming correction takes place.
10) Weapon slot that the weapon fits.
11) 'Charging' or not.
Worse yet, none of those has a simple linear relationship with the quality of the weapon, by which I mean there isn't a one of those for which it always holds true that if you double the value that the weapon is only twice as good. For example, a weapon that does twice as much damage per shot may be roughly twice as good over a certain range of values, but eventually you get to the point where you have a 'first strike effect'. By that I mean that the weapon does so much damage that it destroys the target with the first shot before the target can get a chance to fight back. A weapon that does 2X damage and fires only Y times a second, is usually strictly better than a weapon that fires 2Y times a second and does only X damage because of the first strike effect. But how much better? It's kinda hard to say. We could do 'simulations' in which we estimated the probablity of any shot hitting the target, and determining how often the ship with the 2X weapon beat the ship with the X weapon. You could do this yourself by flipping a coin. Even though the X ship shoots twice as often, it needs to hit twice as often to win. Fifty percent of the time it never gets even a chance at the second shot, and assuming both start shooting at the same time the X ship is only on its third shot by the time that the 2X ship gets its second.
Or take for example mines. Mines are basically weapons that have a velocity of zero. But that clearly implies that a weapon has some value even if it doesn't move. How do you determine how 'accurate' a weapon is if it doesn't move?
Galorin: I think you are absolutely right.
UPDATE: I actually wrote a little program to do this and was surprised how quickly the 'first strike' effect I was talking about becomes significant. It's actually a strong enough of an effect that its relevant to the design of weapons with the comparitively 'weak' damage per shot of a tachyon or graviton, which definately surprises me.
Getting shot in the back by Gauss is a good enough example of the first strike effect. By the time I realize what's going on I'm already 1 or 2 shots from dead.