The issue isn't as much /logoff, but rather killing the client. Any "fix" that doesn't address ship persistence won't correct the bigger problem.

People are going to kill their client for one reason or another. In some cases its because they want to try and avoid dying. However, I don't think that a player's ship should remain in space when they log out, and I don't think an overly long grace-period for disconnects and killing the client is going to garner much appreciation from the general player base. Either shoot them or leave them alone.

05:59PM draugath linkreply
..."I don't think that a player's ship should remain in space when they log out, and I don't think an overly long grace-period for disconnects and killing the client is going to garner much appreciation from the general player base."

You think the general player base disconnects to avoid dying? I don't, or, more importantly, I don't care. And what would lead you to believe such a thing anyways? Did you take a poll? Because I do not recall being asked.

Disconnecting should not be a means to avoid conflict. I am with Savet on this one. None of it is any good if it does not account for disconnects, intentional or otherwise. Those that will log to avoid conflict have already proven that they will use whatever tactics available. If they have to disconnect, they will.

You didn't really bring me this far just to bail out on me now, did you? I do not care if the player leaves the game, as long as the ship remains for the duration of conflict.

So...here's our use case:

1. Ship logs out in space
---A. If combat flag is active (due to damage or proximity of hostiles) logout fails
---B. If not in combat, and at safe distance, logout suceeds after timer of X amount of time
2. Client disconnects
---A. Ship remains persistent for 10 minutes, and ship disposition is persistent on reconnection

This is very simple. If you lose connection, log back in and log out properly to protect your ship. If you kill your client to avoid death, you are still in danger. If you log out and meet safety requirements, you log out normally, and you are not impacted. This would not impact someone botting, as a disconnect would cause them to die because of persistent fire. The only person this would negatively impact is the person who kills their client while a pirate is waiting for payment.

See, I think that 10 minutes is far too long.

Incarnate has been talking about persistence for tridents, and by extension other Class-B and Class-A ships (my designations). But Class-C ships (Moth and smaller) should not be left floating around that long. 1 minute at the tops, but I feel that may be stretching the bounds of propriety.

Sun 03:54PM draugath
I had an idea recently that could be a possibility. Rather than trying to detect combat states, require that to logout while in space the player be >5000m from any potential hostile players. In this case, "potential hostile players" is defined as any other player not in the subjects group or guild.

You presented this as a good idea. The idea gained support. now you are trying to cripple the idea by making it not apply to lost connections.

I do not care if the player logs out, as long as the ship stays, for as long as it is under threat.

Your idea is not that good, if it does not accomplish the stated objectives. you are taking your own good idea, and making it worthless.

One minute is not long enough to distinguish between somebody having trouble working the commands on a shitty tablet interface and somebody who has already disconnected. Two minutes is the minimum I'd accept, and I'd strongly prefer three.

Roda: His idea never addressed cut connections in the first place, so he's not crippling anything. You just mistakenly interpreted him as addressing our core complaint, when he was in fact addressing only part of it. That is still worth doing, just as locking a door is worth doing despite the ease with which a determined criminal could bypass it.

But if we're going to implement a "fix" we should actually fix the problem that people are experiencing.

Draug, Why would 10 minutes be too long if a ship is in a situation where danger is perceived? Please give a scenario where such a situation would legitimately impact someone negatively if they were not attempting to abuse forced disconnects.

I understand that you guys as aggressors with an agenda want to make sure you get your due. Whether it's credits or an explosion. But keep in mind that this game isn't only about pirates. Besides, why do you even need 10 minutes to figure out that someone isn't going to pay you and has likely disconnected?

Some people have intermittent connections by no fault of their own. Some people suffer a power outage. Some people have their parents walk in on them when they're still playing after they've been told to stop. Even if they're not in a situation where they may have been potentially under attack, they may have been transporting some expensive goods. If they aren't able to log back in before the 10 minutes is up, they could potentially lose whatever they were working on or transporting, which is not good for player morale. Nobody likes losing things because they were disconnected at no fault of their own, but their ship was kept in game for too long and someone came along and blew them up.

I think this is just one of those things that will need to compromised on more in favor of the trader than the pirate. To me, even 2 minutes is really pushing it when it comes to a legitimately dropped connection.

A possible expansion of my original suggestion is that the server perform calculations at the time the player would be removed from the game and decide to keep them present longer if the previously defined criteria for logging off in space is met. Otherwise, they should be removed within 1 min. However, since the current logoff allowance is determined client-side, that would introduce more complexity on the back end then the devs may want to add.

As much as I know this community hates EVE, they do seem to have a pretty fair way of dealing with this.

If you log out in space and it wasn't prompted by the client (ie: server crash, server reboot, etc), then you are logged out immediately, HOWEVER, your vessel remains in space for a set period of time. Usually 30 seconds to a couple minutes, and is eligible to be targeted and destroyed.

Seems a similar approach would work here. You log out in the middle of a fight, you can leave the game instantly, but you might end up leaving your now undefended and essentially derelict vessel behind to be destroyed, in which case, you'd wake up back at your home station.

A warning/confirmation could be placed for people about to log out and leave the ship in space, so that there is near-zero chance they do so accidentally. One could also make it so that instant and safe log off still occurs for players who have no sustained damage within a set period of time.

I guess I will be labeled a "Carebear" because I believe things should be fair to ALL.

First - I will agree that NO SHIP should be able to log out while being engaged in any Combat Activity.

Second - I disagree with any time limit between "leaving" the combat and being able to Log out. If you and I are engaged in combat with "normal ships", then either of us can leave sector and if we can make it to any station, that we have access to, and enter to repair and/or stay which is as good as a log off. But you are trying to say that if you engage my Dent, then the rules change. You can still leave the sector and make it to a station and thus avoid any more combat. I on the other hand only have evasion and log off to completely escape the combat, as I have ONLY ONE STATION that I can dock with for repair/escape from combat. To make it fair, if I am unable to log off, then I need access to dock at at least one station in EVERY SYSTEM in the Verse, just as you can. Why should you have advantages that are not afforded to all other players and all other ships.

You're a carebear!

LULZ

You're off topic Crusader. We aren't talking about tridents at all. Tridents are going to persist, that has already been decided on by the devs. If you want to discuss that, go make a "Tridents shouldn't persist" thread for it. What we're talking about here is just fighters.

Pyroman_Ace: Damage is a poor criterion, because it doesn't account for hold-ups, e.g. "Pay me or die", where the victim hasn't actually been hurt and not getting hurt at all is part of the deal. draugath's proximity-based decision making is better.

draugath: Doing that check on the server doesn't seem like a big deal to me. It's not like the basic check you proposed is complicated. That's part of what I like about it, nice and simple.

1. Ship logs out in space
---A. If combat flag is active (due to damage or proximity of hostiles) logout fails
---B. If not in combat, and at safe distance, logout suceeds after timer of X amount of time
2. Client disconnects
---A. If combat flag is active (due to damage or proximity of hostiles) ship remains persistent for 10 minutes, and ship disposition is persistent on reconnection
---B. If not in combat, ship disappears after 30 seconds

The use case has been updated to reflect Draug's concerns.

Pizza - - -

First-Tridents ability to log out has been mentioned in this thread and Dents are not persistant at this point, so my post was related to this topic. When Dents become persistant, then maybe the log out may not be as revelant.

Second-what other ship can sustain 50% or more Damage and then be able to come to a complete stop, cease firing, and wait out the normal 10 seconds to log out with the attacker pounding him the entire time? If there is one, please let me know so I can start flying it also. Most of the normal ships with 50% health could not last thru the log out and most pilots would not start a log out until it became clear that they could not escape or win the battle.

Third-and a little off topic, it just burns you "Pie Rats" that you can't solo a Dent. There is a lot of thick skin on that baby and it takes you too long, so live with it and QUIT posting about new weapons and ways to be able to solo them.

Message from one of the "Carebears" that cares about others.

Let us simplify.

A ship is considered in combat if it has received damage in the last minute, or there has been a potential (player) threat (not occluded) in the last minute.

Log out and disconnect are treated the same. If you are not in combat, and you disconnect, your ship remains in game for the same period of time it would have taken you to log out.

If a ship is in combat, the player can still log out. They should receive a warning that their ship will remain, and why. But otherwise allow them to log out. Logging out should not be significantly different than disconnecting, other than you may gain additional feedback and opportunity to abort log out. We should even add an option to force disconnect, for players that just need to leave "right now" regardless of consequence.

A ship that is stuck on the server due to combat, will despawn, when it fails the definition of being in combat. If it has not received damage in the last 60 seconds, and there have been no threats in the last 60 seconds, etc...

And that is the simplicity of it.

Note that I have added a few changes:

Not occluded means that the effective distance for a player threat is 3k. It means that if a player is counted as a threat to you, you can see him, find him, and kill him. Some player run bot hiding in a roid 5k out is a non issue. players sitting in a station are non issues.

Because of the occlusion change, I have added a 60 second requirement to player threats. Just because you see a threat does not mean you can hide behind a roid and log. You have to be free of threat for the last 60 seconds. 60 seconds is not long enough to go to a station and reload. If the player had been online, he would have run away while you where going to the station.

I still wish an option that each player may exclude themselves from being counted as a threat.

And My two cents: I do not care why you where disconnected. I do not care if your mom caught you playing vo when you where supposed to be doing your homework, your internet connection sucks, lightning just struck your house, or you're just plain lame. This is an online game, and an internet connection is required to play. Your lack of internet is not my problem. This is a real time game. There is no "pause" button. Your rl issues are not my problem. When you enter a potential conflict area, you should deal with the conflict, or suffer the consequences.

Roda, you're starting to sound a lot like Alloh. That is not simpler than what I suggested. And I still don't think the wait for removal on disconnect should be longer than 1 min.

+1 Savet, though I'd be willing to accept a smaller value than ten minutes for the one that's in a hostile situation. I think five minutes would be good, and even three would work.

Crusader, the trident (and armor in general) has nothing to do with this thread. What we are concerned about here is people saying, "Okay, I'll pay" and then logging out while we wait for them to run the /givemoney command (which can take significant time for a flustered newb on a tablet to figure out). We pirates could just be impatient and kill them if they take more than a few moments, but we mostly aren't actually assholes.

Note that the goal here is not to improve the situation for pirates. The goal is to save traders who want to pay. Currently pirates have to be more impatient than we'd (and they'd) like, and as a result traders often die before they can finish the givemoney command.

@draugath: timeout should not be more than a minute, if you are not in combat. if you are in combat, then you should not timeout until combat is complete, no matter how long that combat takes. if it takes less than a minute, no big deal. if it takes more than a minute, so what? the worst thing that can happen is that your ship is destroyed. understand, that i am limiting this to player combat. I do not mind if you have a pause option with hive bots. they will wait for you. logging or disconnecting in combat should in general result in your ship being destroyed. once we accept that as the expected default consequence, then it does not really matter how long it takes a ship to time out. it does not get any worse.

These suggestions affect more than just pirate prey. I log out in space 99% of the time. Whatever we propose is going to affect me the same as any trader.

My goal is that logging off should not be an escape for any player unless they truly have escaped.