This sounds like a no brainer, but if something in the interface/HUD or whatever is so bad that you *need* a plugin just to make it less of a humongous headache, then it should be implemented into the basic interface/HUD by default.

I'm not talking about little nitpicks like "I want a database full of all trade goods" or "I want my buddies list on my HUD" etc.

I mean things that are a pain in the ass to do while playing the game, when the idea behind the plugin that fixes it, seems like a no-brainer for the basic install. e.g. TargetLess, MakeFriends.

I know the devs have a lot on their plate right now, but not everything should be left to the plugin developers to create. It just annoys me to no end that most suggestions end with some form of "a plugin could do that", or "why not make a plugin to do that?".

/rant

The whole point of the plugin system is to allow the community to do things that may not fit within the scope of the design plans or that the devs may not have time for right away given more pressing issues. While they may seem like no-brainers, many of those things require lots of time to actually make work well.

To take one of your examples: Targetless still causes issues for people by creating client-side lag. Also, I've done some hacking on the code. it's not trivial to implement, let alone ensure it's not going to throw an error. There might be better ways to implement it, but there's no guarantee that they would be faster.

No one is forcing you to install any plugins, and often times plugins serve merely as a stop-gap measure to fill a void that the devs haven't been able to get around to implementing properly yet. Take MfgAide, for example. Manufacturing used to be a pain, MfgAide made things easier, the devs fixed it (or at least took a major step in the right direction), and MfgAide is only slightly beneficial now. You would have preferred it if I never released MfgAide at all?

There are plenty of things the devs could, should and would do, but it isn't going to happen tomorrow (hahaha, wouldn't it be funny if the devs released a major update tomorrow and proved me wrong?). In the meantime, you can use a plugin, if you so choose.

Plus, interface/HUD modifications are really at the heart of where plugins shine, so I don't understand your objection. I'm reasonably confident that the devs plan to implement something along the lines of targetless, but even if/when they do, I would still modify it further via plugins to suit my own tastes (I've even modified my own copy of targetless). Undoubtedly, what the devs ultimately do implement cannot satisfy the personal preferences of everyone, but with the possibility of plugins, that isn't a problem.

This suggestion is redundant; plugins can do all these things.

You misunderstand. My irritation is for using plugins as the "only" solution to a "problem", being non-beneficial to newbs who don't use plugins, or don't know how to install them, or that they even exist.

The problem I have with it is, as soon as a lot of newbs find a problem with the game, they will likely give up and leave. And if the devs made something a low priority, or not a priority at all just because someone made a plugin for it, this doesn't help the people who are learning the game.

I am a plugin creator myself (only simple ones so far), and I understand the appeal towards personalised plugins. However I mean the plugins that solve a greater problem, not specific to any one person.

I'll cite an example of the keys problem, and using plugins to sidestep around the horribly broken keys system, such as an autodistributer and guild tags to keys access list, etc.

No. There are no plugins that "solve a greater problem not specific to any one person".

All the examples you've cited are not universal problems. Targetless is not a universal solution and while its obviously sophisticated and popular it's not the best way to deliver that particular featureset. If it was there wouldn't be lag issues associated with it.

Also, the so-called "keys problem" is not a problem. The key system is fully functional, has no bugs (temp-kos bugs are a different system) and works as intended. Just because you mutilate your key-chains by using a retarded bot system because you refuse to institute proper rules regarding ranks and access to owner/user keys doesn't make it a universal problem. If you stopped using your stupid key-bot and started using keys the way they were intended, you'd find it actually isn't that bad. But by all means, continue the great Itan tradition of wearing your pants on your head.

If you like, I could write you a plugin to remove your pants from your head and put them on your legs.

/thread. Whine about keys more itani n00bs

You're telling me that it's normal for a 2000 year advanced civilisation to not have a sector list on their "Heads Up Display"?

Clearly you don't play much (obviously because you're not even subscribed anymore) or you just have no idea what game you're playing.

Could someone make a plugin that makes sarcastic replies to the suggestion forum?

I can't keep up anymore.

+1 to OP. But I will admit there's no chance it hell this well ever change. I think it's fair to say that the Devs seem to have too much on their plate to even consider integrating various SUPER helpful plugins like Targetless, TCS, autoRR (that Ray even wrote!) etc, but even if they did, I'm not sure they would.

While the access to lua features might be a cornerstone of VO, I submit it is one of the top contenders for why people stop playing, behind lack of new/updated content and the grind it takes to do anything fun. Sure you can eventually find your way to the basic plugins that many of us use, but one quickly realizes that those with the skills and time to program their own plugins could have a huge advantage over others in this game. And that's a bad thing when it comes to attracting new players because it makes it SEEM like one's success in VO is determined ultimately by their programming abilities.

So that's right, all of you who defend the plugin system no longer can complain that we don't have enough players.

And how can I not comment on TheRedCrap's comment sourced from an alternate reality? Integrating plugins that MOST people find very helpful makes a lot of sense -- and of course this integration should be able to be "turned off" for those few that don't find it helpful.

For ffs, the key system is horrible. Yes it has been smoothed out a bit more, but it is still awkward and annoying.....and horrible.

My subscription status is off-topic.

The HUD has never been a role-play consideration, otherwise it would be different for every race. So comparing it with the backstory is not useful because we'd spend all day talking about its inadequacies when you think about it in terms of consistency with the backstory.

One's success in VO is determined by their programming abilities, sure, but there's more than one way to come across a cool plugin as opposed to just making it. You can steal it, for instance. I quite like that you gain a significant benefit in VO from learning to write plugins. As someone with no modern programming experience I found the challenge extremely beneficial and within a few months of casual plugin development I can now make all sorts of cool stuff.

It's just unintelligible drivel from kierky and greenwall. The key system is not intended to be all that flash but it does actually work.

If it was there wouldn't be lag issues associated with it.
Actually, that's just because of the inefficient way it creates the target lists. The author already knows about it and has a possible way to fix it in the works.

The key system is not intended to be all that flash but it does actually work.
You're kidding right? Keys don't preserve permissions. Go create multiple user keys some time and see how well *that* works. Without multiple user keys, there's kind of no point to even having checkboxes for permissions. It's not well designed in its current form.

I like when people complain that plugins make things unfair. It makes it easier for me to identify which people are complete idiots.

Plugins are fine. If people find a problem in the default game interface though, they really need to let the devs know about it.

<--- Click on the one that says "Support" and be as descriptive as possible about the problem.

Even if you're going to work around it with a plugin, tell them. Otherwise new players will keep being frustrated by it.

One's success in VO is determined by their programming abilities

CD <--- Zero programming abilities (OK: I ONCE made a green circle on a black screen in AppleBasic)

CD <--- Zero success in VO (I lament this every day of my life. *sobs*)

The real issue is that plugins solve a lot of problems with the default UI, and those plugins suffer from scope creep, creating performance problems for some users. Targetless was mentioned....it should be 2 separate plugins. One for in-sector opponent targeting, one for asteroid database logging. Not all need the asteroid part, but the in-sector targetting is almost necessary for pvp.

No, believe it or not, /toplist does almost everything TargetLess does for targeting, and does so without taking up 1/3 of your screen or causing any "lag". The only thing it'd need is number key bindings and the ability to sort by friendly/hostile and health.

Programming abilities obviously aren't the sole avenue for success, but there's no doubting they contribute.

Yes you'd have to be a real thicko to argue you aren't successful in VO, CD.

Suggestion Sub-Forum: Suggest changes in gameplay or other ideas.

Thread title: "Stop creating plugins as solutions for suggestions that are non-trivial"

OK maybe this qualifies as "Other Ideas", but what you are suggesting is a plea to the plug-in writing community. Should this not be moved to Community Projects, where you can ask them to stop making stuff?

What, exactly, are you Suggesting the Devs do? Make the client so awesome it won't need plugins? Disallow all plugins? Let you approve plugins as trivial? Call Inc back from his conference/tradeshow. He'll get right on that.

Maybe the real suggestion here should be to start a "Rant" sub-forum, where all replies to OP's are "Amen, Brother!" and "Oh Hells Yes!", but nothing is ever expected to be done about any rant. Kind of like what will happen with this one.

But I will admit there's no chance it hell this well ever change. I think it's fair to say that the Devs seem to have too much on their plate to even consider integrating various SUPER helpful plugins like Targetless, TCS, autoRR (that Ray even wrote!) etc, but even if they did, I'm not sure they would.

The idea for plugins was to allow people to create modifications that might serve small groups of people, as well as enhancements that could be beneficial to everyone. We would then eventually review these enhancements and look at integrating them into the production game.

We obviously haven't done that last bit (well, aside from some really trivial stuff), but that doesn't mean it's off the table or anything. But, at the same time, people sometimes ask me to "integrate targetless" or something, which is not the same thing. We aren't ever going to "mainstream" someone's plugin codebase. We'll re-implement it ourselves, using our own much-greater potential optimization and efficiency options.

The plugins still serve a great value, as they let people prototype ideas and make them workable, which gives us a more polished framework to look at, from a design standpoint.

It hasn't been much of a priority for the last couple of years, all our UI changes have been for touch and 10-foot-experience (gamepad/console), etc. But I agree that back-propagating some of these ideas should be a bigger priority for the near term.

yay