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DentedHead, nowhere did I say that that's the way it should be - indeed, within that very post I agreed with Alloh that it wouldn't involve mass at all. I was simply responding to ryan's blatantly wrong statement that lack of atmosphere somehow invalidates F=ma.
Esp: it wouldn't be biased if the serco had their own light valk equivalent.
I tend to see it as opening a doorhole requires x amount of power and then making it large enough to be used requires more power. Perhaps to punch thru the fabric of space time?
Basing it on mass makes perfect sense on a physics levels and is somewhat realistic.
BTW the problem with the valk I think Ryan is griping about is the valk is grossly low in mass - Personally i think no ship in vo should have a mass lower then thier armor rating.
The trident does break this so it would need some sort of adjustment - either its main batt re spec'e to 10 times is current size or the equation rescaled to about 6000 instead of 600 to bring things back to a working solution.
BTW the differance in time for 1 k is a tenth of a second. the 2 examples red cited would be jump ready in 1.1 and 1.2 seconds. using fc powercells.
A empty centaur at 15k would need 75 or 1.5 seconds to jump while an empty moth at 30k comes out at 100 or 2 seconds. Loaded with rails however an xc would require a full heavy batt for every jump or about 12 seconds
hope this helps....
Basing it on mass makes perfect sense on a physics levels and is somewhat realistic.
BTW the problem with the valk I think Ryan is griping about is the valk is grossly low in mass - Personally i think no ship in vo should have a mass lower then thier armor rating.
The trident does break this so it would need some sort of adjustment - either its main batt re spec'e to 10 times is current size or the equation rescaled to about 6000 instead of 600 to bring things back to a working solution.
BTW the differance in time for 1 k is a tenth of a second. the 2 examples red cited would be jump ready in 1.1 and 1.2 seconds. using fc powercells.
A empty centaur at 15k would need 75 or 1.5 seconds to jump while an empty moth at 30k comes out at 100 or 2 seconds. Loaded with rails however an xc would require a full heavy batt for every jump or about 12 seconds
hope this helps....
"Esp: it wouldn't be biased if the serco had their own light valk equivalent."
Yes well thanks for that incredible piece of wisdom kierky I had never considered that!
When will that be happening by the by? Seems soon TM is the answer
Yes well thanks for that incredible piece of wisdom kierky I had never considered that!
When will that be happening by the by? Seems soon TM is the answer
BTW some current specs on time to jump - based entirely on which batt you use
capacity - rate - 25% - Time
free 250 - 38 - 62.5 - 1.6
heavy 550 - 45 - 137.5 - 3.05
f/c 250 50 - 62.5 - 1.25
uc 300 50 - 75 1.5
capacity - rate - 25% - Time
free 250 - 38 - 62.5 - 1.6
heavy 550 - 45 - 137.5 - 3.05
f/c 250 50 - 62.5 - 1.25
uc 300 50 - 75 1.5
see, proper tinkering with jump efficiency stats on powercells with trade offs for grid power etc.. etc.. would be a much more sensible way to achieve the same outcome. I had always imagined the devs were planning on doing this anyway, which is why I wouldn't imagine a suggestion like this would be of any use because the same outcomes are planned in a different manner.
" I was simply responding to ryan's blatantly wrong statement that lack of atmosphere somehow invalidates F=ma."
I never said anything even remotely similar to that you babbling simpleton... you on the other hand, implied that jumping requires acceleration... which it clearly does not.
I never said anything even remotely similar to that you babbling simpleton... you on the other hand, implied that jumping requires acceleration... which it clearly does not.
@PaK:
You are right, energy is required to "warp in" the universe fabric, enlarge and keep open. Whatever crosses it is irrelevant, so its mass and density. Only its frontal largest cross-section and speed would matter.
The way it is implemented now in VO also ignores speed. You are fuly stop here, open a hole and "falls" on the other side. No speed required, no acceleration. Think of funnels, but made of gravity, once you open it, you'll be dragged here and launched there, when the hole closes. Indeed, you should keep your speed after jumping, then previous speed becomes irrelevant to wormhole carving.
That explained, does'n matter if a XC fully loaded of samoflange or an empty Aeolus Light Moth, they both have the same frame, cross-section, so both requires the same amount of energy to open a wormhole. Once open, WH geometry completes the jump no matter your speed.
So, that would explain why newbie ships are "pencil-like", so they can jump with a free cell.
The worst ship in this case would be a Vulture, unable to jump with a FCC (250), requiring medium (450) to jump due its wingspan.
For me, the best modelling here would relate SIZE and SPEED, so a static ship requires more energy than when moving fast.
Then a Static Vulture with a FCC cannot jump, but can if moving above 200 m/s... because you "squeeze" better thus requiring less energy due requiring a briefer time to keep open the hole.
You are right, energy is required to "warp in" the universe fabric, enlarge and keep open. Whatever crosses it is irrelevant, so its mass and density. Only its frontal largest cross-section and speed would matter.
The way it is implemented now in VO also ignores speed. You are fuly stop here, open a hole and "falls" on the other side. No speed required, no acceleration. Think of funnels, but made of gravity, once you open it, you'll be dragged here and launched there, when the hole closes. Indeed, you should keep your speed after jumping, then previous speed becomes irrelevant to wormhole carving.
That explained, does'n matter if a XC fully loaded of samoflange or an empty Aeolus Light Moth, they both have the same frame, cross-section, so both requires the same amount of energy to open a wormhole. Once open, WH geometry completes the jump no matter your speed.
So, that would explain why newbie ships are "pencil-like", so they can jump with a free cell.
The worst ship in this case would be a Vulture, unable to jump with a FCC (250), requiring medium (450) to jump due its wingspan.
For me, the best modelling here would relate SIZE and SPEED, so a static ship requires more energy than when moving fast.
Then a Static Vulture with a FCC cannot jump, but can if moving above 200 m/s... because you "squeeze" better thus requiring less energy due requiring a briefer time to keep open the hole.
Alloh said: "You are right, energy is required to "warp in" the universe fabric, enlarge and keep open. Whatever crosses it is irrelevant, so its mass and density. Only its frontal largest cross-section and speed would matter."
Hahaha! I never knew Alloh was an expert in fictional exotic partical/energy physics!
We can talk all night about what "would/should" happen, but we have no real idea how the devs envisioned the specifics of FTL jumping. All I did for my own "theory" was look at what we currently have (in game, that is), and come up with a psudeo-scientific justification for how it "works".
That said, I would like to see speed remain constant through-out the jump (to quote GlaDOS: Here you can see how portals affect your speed... or rather, how they don't"), as well as seeing the energy required directly relate to the actual distance jumped (for intra-system jumps only.... WH jumps should still need 100% IMO, for the "stability" factor I assume WH jumps require...) but ultimatly I'd like to see a reason to use something other than FC cells.
Dent.
Hahaha! I never knew Alloh was an expert in fictional exotic partical/energy physics!
We can talk all night about what "would/should" happen, but we have no real idea how the devs envisioned the specifics of FTL jumping. All I did for my own "theory" was look at what we currently have (in game, that is), and come up with a psudeo-scientific justification for how it "works".
That said, I would like to see speed remain constant through-out the jump (to quote GlaDOS: Here you can see how portals affect your speed... or rather, how they don't"), as well as seeing the energy required directly relate to the actual distance jumped (for intra-system jumps only.... WH jumps should still need 100% IMO, for the "stability" factor I assume WH jumps require...) but ultimatly I'd like to see a reason to use something other than FC cells.
Dent.
"I never said anything even remotely similar to that you babbling simpleton... you on the other hand, implied that jumping requires acceleration... which it clearly does not."
No, that was tarenty. I quite clearly disagreed - as I just got done reiterating in my last post. What is wrong with you people's reading comprehension this weekend?
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tarenty said:
What makes sense about every ship requiring 25% energy to jump, heavy cell or light, trident or centurion? A flat jump cost would be better than what we have, but in physics (correct me if I'm wrong), the energy required to move something increases with its mass.
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ryan reign said:
Easy, the jump system is a sub system of the ship. If I start my tower in my house, it takes no longer than starting my laptop. You might have a point IF we were flying in an atmosphere... but, we are not. So you don't.
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Clearly, tarenty brought up the bit about acceleration, and then you spouted some nonsense about computers and atmosphere, which I took to mean that you believed mass to be irrelevant outside of an atmosphere. Perhaps I misinterpreted your statement, but that is hardly my fault. If you want to be understood, post while sober.
And once again, I remind you that I ended my post by saying that Alloh had the right of it when he said it shouldn't involve acceleration at all, but rather size.
Do try to keep up.
No, that was tarenty. I quite clearly disagreed - as I just got done reiterating in my last post. What is wrong with you people's reading comprehension this weekend?
----
tarenty said:
What makes sense about every ship requiring 25% energy to jump, heavy cell or light, trident or centurion? A flat jump cost would be better than what we have, but in physics (correct me if I'm wrong), the energy required to move something increases with its mass.
----
ryan reign said:
Easy, the jump system is a sub system of the ship. If I start my tower in my house, it takes no longer than starting my laptop. You might have a point IF we were flying in an atmosphere... but, we are not. So you don't.
----
Clearly, tarenty brought up the bit about acceleration, and then you spouted some nonsense about computers and atmosphere, which I took to mean that you believed mass to be irrelevant outside of an atmosphere. Perhaps I misinterpreted your statement, but that is hardly my fault. If you want to be understood, post while sober.
And once again, I remind you that I ended my post by saying that Alloh had the right of it when he said it shouldn't involve acceleration at all, but rather size.
Do try to keep up.
Like Dent was getting at, it comes down to how each of us interpret the mechanics of jumping. I don't believe I ever implied anything about acceleration... just that it takes more energy to move more massive things. I was thinking moving a ton of rocks one kilometer and moving two tons of rocks one kilometer doesn't take the same amount of energy, but I realized that creating a "gateway" between the places and floating through that gateway would require only a linear amount of energy to open the gateway based on the dimensions of the ship travelling through it. Sort of like creating a wormhole (stargate). Previously I had a different idea about how jumps worked, but I'd obviously not put much thought into it, so I won't bother posting it.
"I don't believe I ever implied anything about acceleration... just that it takes more energy to move more massive things."
Okay, now you're just trolling.
Okay, now you're just trolling.
If jump is to be regarded as teleportation, energy required should be proportional with the number of atoms to disintegrate and reintegrate after. In that case mass and size impact could be completely dependent on ship structure and materials and variable for object of the same size.
Velocity of the object should have a negative impact on the jump because it would require more calculations. High velocity object should require more energy than a static object to be processed. So you should have an energy penalty for jumping at high speed. However a stabilized speed should require less energy than a variable speed (acceleration).
If jump is to be regarded as an accelerator then mass and initial acceleration/speed are preponderant.
Mass will have a negative role, speed a positive role on energy required.
If jump is bending space time continuum. Then required energy is proportional to the size of the "window" you have to move object through. Window size could be standard or could depends on ship max cross section. Speed/Mass would be irrelevant then.
: p
Velocity of the object should have a negative impact on the jump because it would require more calculations. High velocity object should require more energy than a static object to be processed. So you should have an energy penalty for jumping at high speed. However a stabilized speed should require less energy than a variable speed (acceleration).
If jump is to be regarded as an accelerator then mass and initial acceleration/speed are preponderant.
Mass will have a negative role, speed a positive role on energy required.
If jump is bending space time continuum. Then required energy is proportional to the size of the "window" you have to move object through. Window size could be standard or could depends on ship max cross section. Speed/Mass would be irrelevant then.
: p
To which I can only add:
If a jump is to be regarded as changing the fabric of space by spraying akan blessed fairy powder in front of the ship, then the main considerations are the supply of fairy powder and your standing with Akan.
[And if Akan is anything like the Buddha, which he probably isn't, I'm sure he has a weak spot for XC's.]
Which makes about as much sense as the rest of this thread ;-)
If a jump is to be regarded as changing the fabric of space by spraying akan blessed fairy powder in front of the ship, then the main considerations are the supply of fairy powder and your standing with Akan.
[And if Akan is anything like the Buddha, which he probably isn't, I'm sure he has a weak spot for XC's.]
Which makes about as much sense as the rest of this thread ;-)
The fictional details are not the point here. The point is to alter the mechanics of jumping so that some ships jump more easily than others, beyond the impact turbo-drain <= 50 already offers.
Okay, now you're just trolling.
;)
The fictional details need to match the proposed mechanic, so we can all agree what to roleplay.
;)
The fictional details need to match the proposed mechanic, so we can all agree what to roleplay.
The fictional details need to match the proposed mechanic, so we can all agree what to roleplay.
Perfect!
So, we don't wanna require new animations, so our limit here is adequating the physics modelling to what we have now.
Visually, both inter-sector jumps and wormholes inter-systems traversing are the same, so we can consider that both are the same, but if you engage the jump drives near a natural wormhole you'll end up in another system instead of another sector.
Next, that's clearly not an Alcubierre Drive, but a typical wormhole, also known as an Einstein-Rosen Bridge is a hypothetical topological feature of spacetime that would be, fundamentally, a "shortcut" through spacetime.(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wormhole)
Then, since we can traverse it while static in space, that is not the "long tunnel" type, but instead a plane singularity, as this NASA diagram:
Refer to http://www.nasa.gov/centers/glenn/technology/warp/warp.html.
Once the wormhole is open, it will "suck" anything in one side and "spit" back in the over side, when acceleration during fall is nulified by drag in the opposing side, so mass and speed don't matter.
Note that the ship is at same time on both sides of wormhole, in that precise moment.
After DentedHead ask someone to explain him the ideas here, he'll understand why the mass is irrelevant here...
Perfect!
So, we don't wanna require new animations, so our limit here is adequating the physics modelling to what we have now.
Visually, both inter-sector jumps and wormholes inter-systems traversing are the same, so we can consider that both are the same, but if you engage the jump drives near a natural wormhole you'll end up in another system instead of another sector.
Next, that's clearly not an Alcubierre Drive, but a typical wormhole, also known as an Einstein-Rosen Bridge is a hypothetical topological feature of spacetime that would be, fundamentally, a "shortcut" through spacetime.(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wormhole)
Then, since we can traverse it while static in space, that is not the "long tunnel" type, but instead a plane singularity, as this NASA diagram:
Refer to http://www.nasa.gov/centers/glenn/technology/warp/warp.html.
Once the wormhole is open, it will "suck" anything in one side and "spit" back in the over side, when acceleration during fall is nulified by drag in the opposing side, so mass and speed don't matter.
Note that the ship is at same time on both sides of wormhole, in that precise moment.
After DentedHead ask someone to explain him the ideas here, he'll understand why the mass is irrelevant here...
damn i was trying to roleplay a geek : )
I'm gonna say -1 to OP. The game is balanced around turbo drain and powercell recharge rates. The only glaring problem is the Trident
An empty trident type M weighs 3,000,000 kg currently. A tad heavy if you ask me, since NPC ships are 90,000 kg, but its thrust and spin torque are set for 3M, so w/e...
IMHO, it should not run on a powercell at all. Its 200MW reactor should be in a new equipment slot (and engines, and computer, and sensors, and shield generator: all eventually upgradeable/swappable). Rules for its warp efficiency can be balanced on its own to make sector hopping slower. Also, all turrets (and shields eventually) should be draining from this supply, while the pilot should be able to balance how much % power each system has available, so a trigger-happy gunner couldn't stop the ship from warping, nor nullify shields, sensors, engines, or any other system. Likewise, a ship set for full combat mode (shields and turrets @ max) should not be able to warp.
Alternately, you could require cappies to "spin up" their warp drive since they need to create a larger field than small ships, and this would automatically choke down weapons and shield recharge power. This idea is fun, because you could let pursuers in range see the destination as soon as spin-up starts, even allow ships that get in range during spin up see the destination, so they could get there first, their small ships able to sector hop much faster...
Whatever is done to player cappies should also happen to NPC cappies.
An empty trident type M weighs 3,000,000 kg currently. A tad heavy if you ask me, since NPC ships are 90,000 kg, but its thrust and spin torque are set for 3M, so w/e...
IMHO, it should not run on a powercell at all. Its 200MW reactor should be in a new equipment slot (and engines, and computer, and sensors, and shield generator: all eventually upgradeable/swappable). Rules for its warp efficiency can be balanced on its own to make sector hopping slower. Also, all turrets (and shields eventually) should be draining from this supply, while the pilot should be able to balance how much % power each system has available, so a trigger-happy gunner couldn't stop the ship from warping, nor nullify shields, sensors, engines, or any other system. Likewise, a ship set for full combat mode (shields and turrets @ max) should not be able to warp.
Alternately, you could require cappies to "spin up" their warp drive since they need to create a larger field than small ships, and this would automatically choke down weapons and shield recharge power. This idea is fun, because you could let pursuers in range see the destination as soon as spin-up starts, even allow ships that get in range during spin up see the destination, so they could get there first, their small ships able to sector hop much faster...
Whatever is done to player cappies should also happen to NPC cappies.
@CD:
I fully agree with that, why equip a (2? 20? MW) powercell when you have a full 200MW reactor? But it really deserves its own topic.
Seems I am not the only one to dream off-topic...
I fully agree with that, why equip a (2? 20? MW) powercell when you have a full 200MW reactor? But it really deserves its own topic.
Seems I am not the only one to dream off-topic...