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A few things phaserlight didn't give me a chance to address
I never got a chance to respond...
Lolz about the thread that some of you dug up. The short version of what happened is... AF is well known for starting projects and abandoning them. In the spring community he has started and dropped somewhere around 10 projects. His latest (which he has abandoned), SHARD, is a configurable AI that can be ordered around with LUA, and is mostly LUA already but relies on an antiquated C++ Library.
I was lobbying for him to transform the C++ library into lua so that it could be maintained by anyone in the community (because we all knew he would abandon it, it was just a question of when). At the point of him starting that thread I had stopped pressing gently for him to do it, and he went into melodrama mode (another thing AF is very well known for).
It should be noted that at the time of AF making that forum thread, shard had sat broken for nearly a year because he couldn't be arsed to fix the antiquated library that it relied on. That is the problem with C++ AIs, they break every time there is a new engine release, and if people like AF refuse to bother to fix them, then they lie dormant and abandoned, and anyone who was silly enough to rely on them is then 100% screwed.
As it is, SHARD has been abandoned. It was fully abandoned less than a month after his making that thread. Thankfully, one of the engine devs more or less forced him to put the source code into a git repo that the engine devs could control, so now the engine devs can fix it when it goes haywire.
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The main point I wanted to address though is this... Someone posted that my topic being posted during the kickstarter was nothing short of malevolence. That is simply untrue. I have been watching VO for roughly 6 years. In essence, I waited 6 years to make that post. Kickstarter got me thinking about VO again and so I decided to check in again. I was fairly disappointed with what I found, but that post was made as an "idea sparker", not out of some desire to see VO harmed. I want VO to see massive success very muchly, but pointing out it's issues is not the same thing as trying to harm it.
My criticism was very constructive. I pointed out an issue and posted ideas that might help fix it.
Wrt the combat, I wasn't suggesting that the current system be ripped out. I was pointing out that lateral thrusting raises the skill bar much higher.
Wrt role playing, you have to enjoy full on role playing in order to do that. At the same time, true RP players are always a small subset of a game like this, and normal interaction has a tendency to upset them, so many casual players simply avoid them.
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@POL, it is very common for companies to listen only to their most hardcore fans. The problem is that hardcore fans get perpetual tunnel vision and if the devs follow them too closely, then the devs end up with it as well.
I am not suggesting that that is the case here.
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The reason that you guys couldn't find my game or more information about me is because google does this:
About 5,390,000 results (0.26 seconds)
******Showing results for foreboding angel******
Search instead for forboding angel
You need to click on "Search instead for forboding angel". Sorry about that. I assumed people knew how2google.
But to save you trouble: http://www.evolutionrts.info , http://www.youtube.com/forbodingangel
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Wrt soundeffects,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=ZWP1TF3_GRk#t=82s
Weaksauce explosion sound (and it's used for every single explosion -_-). The laser sounds are incredibly generic as well as the hit sounds (not the beep, but the sound when you have actual impact).
Wrt music,
Serco space. Even after 6 years, the word "vendetta" brings this to mind:
wom wom wom wom wom wom wom wom doink doink doink doink doink doink doink doink. Rinse repeat ad nauseum.
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Sorry to ruffle your feathers, hardcores.
Lolz about the thread that some of you dug up. The short version of what happened is... AF is well known for starting projects and abandoning them. In the spring community he has started and dropped somewhere around 10 projects. His latest (which he has abandoned), SHARD, is a configurable AI that can be ordered around with LUA, and is mostly LUA already but relies on an antiquated C++ Library.
I was lobbying for him to transform the C++ library into lua so that it could be maintained by anyone in the community (because we all knew he would abandon it, it was just a question of when). At the point of him starting that thread I had stopped pressing gently for him to do it, and he went into melodrama mode (another thing AF is very well known for).
It should be noted that at the time of AF making that forum thread, shard had sat broken for nearly a year because he couldn't be arsed to fix the antiquated library that it relied on. That is the problem with C++ AIs, they break every time there is a new engine release, and if people like AF refuse to bother to fix them, then they lie dormant and abandoned, and anyone who was silly enough to rely on them is then 100% screwed.
As it is, SHARD has been abandoned. It was fully abandoned less than a month after his making that thread. Thankfully, one of the engine devs more or less forced him to put the source code into a git repo that the engine devs could control, so now the engine devs can fix it when it goes haywire.
------
The main point I wanted to address though is this... Someone posted that my topic being posted during the kickstarter was nothing short of malevolence. That is simply untrue. I have been watching VO for roughly 6 years. In essence, I waited 6 years to make that post. Kickstarter got me thinking about VO again and so I decided to check in again. I was fairly disappointed with what I found, but that post was made as an "idea sparker", not out of some desire to see VO harmed. I want VO to see massive success very muchly, but pointing out it's issues is not the same thing as trying to harm it.
My criticism was very constructive. I pointed out an issue and posted ideas that might help fix it.
Wrt the combat, I wasn't suggesting that the current system be ripped out. I was pointing out that lateral thrusting raises the skill bar much higher.
Wrt role playing, you have to enjoy full on role playing in order to do that. At the same time, true RP players are always a small subset of a game like this, and normal interaction has a tendency to upset them, so many casual players simply avoid them.
------
@POL, it is very common for companies to listen only to their most hardcore fans. The problem is that hardcore fans get perpetual tunnel vision and if the devs follow them too closely, then the devs end up with it as well.
I am not suggesting that that is the case here.
------
The reason that you guys couldn't find my game or more information about me is because google does this:
About 5,390,000 results (0.26 seconds)
******Showing results for foreboding angel******
Search instead for forboding angel
You need to click on "Search instead for forboding angel". Sorry about that. I assumed people knew how2google.
But to save you trouble: http://www.evolutionrts.info , http://www.youtube.com/forbodingangel
------
Wrt soundeffects,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=ZWP1TF3_GRk#t=82s
Weaksauce explosion sound (and it's used for every single explosion -_-). The laser sounds are incredibly generic as well as the hit sounds (not the beep, but the sound when you have actual impact).
Wrt music,
Serco space. Even after 6 years, the word "vendetta" brings this to mind:
wom wom wom wom wom wom wom wom doink doink doink doink doink doink doink doink. Rinse repeat ad nauseum.
------
Sorry to ruffle your feathers, hardcores.
facepalms leave us please
Dear god you are verbose
I smell some hurt butts.
Sad. Go make your game, let the devs make theirs, without trying to deter anyone that gets on the forums from trying it. Whether you intended to be malevolent or not, it certainly appears that way, as I said in my last post.
Hey forboding angel,
I've read your entire first post on the other thread, all of the comments on said thread, and skimmed your latest post on this thread. Your ideas have a lot of merit and vo certainly is a dull place for people who don't actively do something about it, especially with the low player base.
However, I think the main reason your getting trolled around a bit is because this stuff is already planned to be implemented, and will be soon (tm). There are only 4 devs and this stuff is trickier to do then it may seem at face value, which I'm sure as a game developer you know as well as anyone. For each of the ideas you presented, there are whole threads dedicated to fleshing out the details of them that the devs have read, but are probably too busy to implement at the moment.
Also, as for the lack of players, there is a fundraiser thingy going on to counter that (saw about 5 people in one training sector in sercospace last night) and also the devs plan to release a $1 "minisubscription" soon (tm) which will massively increase player retention for those players who can't afford the $10.
While I agree that an f2p model with incentives to pay for access to more aspects of the game would benefit the game by adding in many more players, the fact is the devs won't budge on that particular front unfortunately.
I've read your entire first post on the other thread, all of the comments on said thread, and skimmed your latest post on this thread. Your ideas have a lot of merit and vo certainly is a dull place for people who don't actively do something about it, especially with the low player base.
However, I think the main reason your getting trolled around a bit is because this stuff is already planned to be implemented, and will be soon (tm). There are only 4 devs and this stuff is trickier to do then it may seem at face value, which I'm sure as a game developer you know as well as anyone. For each of the ideas you presented, there are whole threads dedicated to fleshing out the details of them that the devs have read, but are probably too busy to implement at the moment.
Also, as for the lack of players, there is a fundraiser thingy going on to counter that (saw about 5 people in one training sector in sercospace last night) and also the devs plan to release a $1 "minisubscription" soon (tm) which will massively increase player retention for those players who can't afford the $10.
While I agree that an f2p model with incentives to pay for access to more aspects of the game would benefit the game by adding in many more players, the fact is the devs won't budge on that particular front unfortunately.
Hey crusader, thanks for the reply!
Wrt getting trolled, it's no big deal. I'm a dev of a free indie game and irl I run my own business. I have a pretty thick skin :-)
Yeah, in my OP I did address the dev manpower a bit. What I was trying to get across is that the devs seem to be concentrating on pig picture items, when it's the smaller scale stuff that really needs love the most (imo).
And yeah, I know exactly what it's like to want to implement 50 things and only having time for a few. I suppose the difference for me is that I love working on my game and dumping all of my free time into it is fun for me, so it works out.
That's not to sat that guild doesn't love their game. I wasn't trying to insinuate that at all. I'm merely pointing out that for them it is their passion and their job (which is cool as hell), but at the end of the day, it is a job, and they are 4 guys trying to support a game encompassing a huge area.
$1 minisub sounds neat actually. That's low enough so that someone like me who wouldn't be playing often, still might pop in now and again. The main issue with mmos are that you end up feeling forced to play them in order to get your money's worth. :-/ And yeah, especially for younger kids (which is exactly what you need), that might really help out.
Well, tbh, I really dislike f2p, but, I like it more than mmo, so for me it's kind of a lesser of two evils thing. But I can totally see why they won't budge. Moving to f2p means that they are basically putting their livelihoods in the hands of players who may or may not spend enough to support them. As such a small studio, they simply can't afford to take the risk, and I doubt that I would if I were them.
I'm saddened that the more trolling members of this board seem to think I have it in for VO when I really don't. I love indie games, I love indie dev studios and VO, for all it's little downsides, is an amazing game and imo the best space sim mmo out there (by far). But I would love to see more attention to detail on the smaller stuff that me, average joe gamer, tends to care about.
Wrt getting trolled, it's no big deal. I'm a dev of a free indie game and irl I run my own business. I have a pretty thick skin :-)
Yeah, in my OP I did address the dev manpower a bit. What I was trying to get across is that the devs seem to be concentrating on pig picture items, when it's the smaller scale stuff that really needs love the most (imo).
And yeah, I know exactly what it's like to want to implement 50 things and only having time for a few. I suppose the difference for me is that I love working on my game and dumping all of my free time into it is fun for me, so it works out.
That's not to sat that guild doesn't love their game. I wasn't trying to insinuate that at all. I'm merely pointing out that for them it is their passion and their job (which is cool as hell), but at the end of the day, it is a job, and they are 4 guys trying to support a game encompassing a huge area.
$1 minisub sounds neat actually. That's low enough so that someone like me who wouldn't be playing often, still might pop in now and again. The main issue with mmos are that you end up feeling forced to play them in order to get your money's worth. :-/ And yeah, especially for younger kids (which is exactly what you need), that might really help out.
Well, tbh, I really dislike f2p, but, I like it more than mmo, so for me it's kind of a lesser of two evils thing. But I can totally see why they won't budge. Moving to f2p means that they are basically putting their livelihoods in the hands of players who may or may not spend enough to support them. As such a small studio, they simply can't afford to take the risk, and I doubt that I would if I were them.
I'm saddened that the more trolling members of this board seem to think I have it in for VO when I really don't. I love indie games, I love indie dev studios and VO, for all it's little downsides, is an amazing game and imo the best space sim mmo out there (by far). But I would love to see more attention to detail on the smaller stuff that me, average joe gamer, tends to care about.
First of all, can't we have suggestions discussions in the forum that is dedicated to that exact purpose?
Second of all, I don't disagree with many of the basic points put forth in the original thread, but as Crusader states, we're already trying to fix those. So, I'm not sure what to say other than "Yup!". I mean, I've mentioned improved persistent NPC creation and event handling, group mission editors and so on, along with a lot of other stuff. What do you think this is for (?!).
Thirdly, throughout the years since 2006, we've been continually developing a lot of major mechanics to take the game to where I want it to go. Mostly back-end technology like Kourier and Dynamic warfare, stuff that has only been exposed and utilized to a miniscule degree. Up until 2010, those were our primary focus. We took a left-turn onto mobile due to the immediate financial need, and now we're doing everything we can to come back to gameplay development and make VO 1.9 the thing it was intended to be.
I appreciate that everyone has input, some of it is really good and on-point, and some people have more development insight than others, and that some simply think they do. But the fact is, developing a system to control millions of NPCs using complex, long-range AI mechanics, with low memory overhead and massive scalability in a stable ongoing manner (just as one example) is not trivial. And as far as I know, it isn't something that anyone else is doing in the entire MMO genre. Plus, it's not something we can really post about to an MOTD and say "Kourier now does.. stuff.. slightly differently! You can't tell!". The whole litmus test will be when we get to fully utilize all this functionality and put it into practice. That has been delayed by a couple of years by mobile, granted, but I.. did what I did, and I believe the company is still here as a direct result of my choice.
It would be wise to take a look at what I've mentioned as the general overall plans for VO 2.0 (player owned fleets, stations, territory, player-posted missions, completely player-driven dynamics in an expanded universe with player-controlled convoys that may be captained by NPCs, etc).. and then consider what would be needed to achieve that. You might find it runs pretty parallel to what we've actually been doing (aside from mobile) for a number of years. The point now is to bring it all together.
While I agree that an f2p model with incentives to pay for access to more aspects of the game would benefit the game by adding in many more players, the fact is the devs won't budge on that particular front unfortunately.
Wait, what? I've repeatedly been open to it, and stated in the Lite subscription thread you reference that this could be a transition to F2P. But that doing a hard cutover requires a lot of development time and funds that we don't have (min of six months, doing nothing but F2P/micro stuff, no gameplay advancements in the meantime, and then who knows how long to find out of it works.. a Lite system launching on mobile is an easier transition).
I'm also moving this thread to suggestions shortly..
Second of all, I don't disagree with many of the basic points put forth in the original thread, but as Crusader states, we're already trying to fix those. So, I'm not sure what to say other than "Yup!". I mean, I've mentioned improved persistent NPC creation and event handling, group mission editors and so on, along with a lot of other stuff. What do you think this is for (?!).
Thirdly, throughout the years since 2006, we've been continually developing a lot of major mechanics to take the game to where I want it to go. Mostly back-end technology like Kourier and Dynamic warfare, stuff that has only been exposed and utilized to a miniscule degree. Up until 2010, those were our primary focus. We took a left-turn onto mobile due to the immediate financial need, and now we're doing everything we can to come back to gameplay development and make VO 1.9 the thing it was intended to be.
I appreciate that everyone has input, some of it is really good and on-point, and some people have more development insight than others, and that some simply think they do. But the fact is, developing a system to control millions of NPCs using complex, long-range AI mechanics, with low memory overhead and massive scalability in a stable ongoing manner (just as one example) is not trivial. And as far as I know, it isn't something that anyone else is doing in the entire MMO genre. Plus, it's not something we can really post about to an MOTD and say "Kourier now does.. stuff.. slightly differently! You can't tell!". The whole litmus test will be when we get to fully utilize all this functionality and put it into practice. That has been delayed by a couple of years by mobile, granted, but I.. did what I did, and I believe the company is still here as a direct result of my choice.
It would be wise to take a look at what I've mentioned as the general overall plans for VO 2.0 (player owned fleets, stations, territory, player-posted missions, completely player-driven dynamics in an expanded universe with player-controlled convoys that may be captained by NPCs, etc).. and then consider what would be needed to achieve that. You might find it runs pretty parallel to what we've actually been doing (aside from mobile) for a number of years. The point now is to bring it all together.
While I agree that an f2p model with incentives to pay for access to more aspects of the game would benefit the game by adding in many more players, the fact is the devs won't budge on that particular front unfortunately.
Wait, what? I've repeatedly been open to it, and stated in the Lite subscription thread you reference that this could be a transition to F2P. But that doing a hard cutover requires a lot of development time and funds that we don't have (min of six months, doing nothing but F2P/micro stuff, no gameplay advancements in the meantime, and then who knows how long to find out of it works.. a Lite system launching on mobile is an easier transition).
I'm also moving this thread to suggestions shortly..
@Inc
This thread does really need to be in suggestions, thanks for the move.
I'm sorry I misread your intention in the Lite subscription thread, I didn't realize you were open to changing to a f2p type model.
This thread does really need to be in suggestions, thanks for the move.
I'm sorry I misread your intention in the Lite subscription thread, I didn't realize you were open to changing to a f2p type model.
FA: I agree you had some constructive criticism in the previous thread, however it was couched in a tone (both in the thread title and the main body) that seemed to pre-suppose that the thread would be either flamed, trolled, or otherwise belittled/disregarded, which became a self-fulfilling prophecy. I wanted to end things on a positive note.
I wish you well with your RTS game, but this forum is about Vendetta Online; I think it's common sense to try and confine discussion to that topic. There is an 'Off-Topic' forum, too.
I wish you well with your RTS game, but this forum is about Vendetta Online; I think it's common sense to try and confine discussion to that topic. There is an 'Off-Topic' forum, too.
Thanks for the reply, incarnate.
Please don't take it as me trying to bash you guys or VO in general. That wasn't the intention at all.
It's good that you mention controlling npcs and tracking them and whatnot. Tbh, that can't be easy, but I was working under the assumption that kourier (hehe I remember when that was first implemented :-)) could handle all of it, and more accurately, could do so without much oversight from you guys.
That's a pretty big assumption, but in order to launch that point I had to start somewhere.
I don't think that you have made incorrect choice wrt company direction. I don't think that anyone could presume to tell you one way or the other because anyone else would be lacking oversight and perspective.
Regardless, I will continue following VO's progress. I wanted to get out some of my more poignant thoughts. I've actually wanted to post that thread for many years, but always decided against it because I am not active in the community.
At any rate, I'm looking forward to what the future brings and I'm hoping that VO smashes through 700k on kickstarter (lets be honest, how frigging cool would that be?) :-)
Edit: @phaserlight,
I was basing that presupposition off of other threads that I have read in the past on this forum. Pardon the expression, but someone like me who is considered new, will tend to be shouted down by the hardcore crowd. And honestly, for most of it, isn't that what happened?
Please don't take it as me trying to bash you guys or VO in general. That wasn't the intention at all.
It's good that you mention controlling npcs and tracking them and whatnot. Tbh, that can't be easy, but I was working under the assumption that kourier (hehe I remember when that was first implemented :-)) could handle all of it, and more accurately, could do so without much oversight from you guys.
That's a pretty big assumption, but in order to launch that point I had to start somewhere.
I don't think that you have made incorrect choice wrt company direction. I don't think that anyone could presume to tell you one way or the other because anyone else would be lacking oversight and perspective.
Regardless, I will continue following VO's progress. I wanted to get out some of my more poignant thoughts. I've actually wanted to post that thread for many years, but always decided against it because I am not active in the community.
At any rate, I'm looking forward to what the future brings and I'm hoping that VO smashes through 700k on kickstarter (lets be honest, how frigging cool would that be?) :-)
Edit: @phaserlight,
I was basing that presupposition off of other threads that I have read in the past on this forum. Pardon the expression, but someone like me who is considered new, will tend to be shouted down by the hardcore crowd. And honestly, for most of it, isn't that what happened?
I would add that though there may be the impression that only the 'hardcores' or whatever you called the regular players are listened to when it comes to suggestions in my experience it's really not the case.
Incarnate is the visionary behind VO, always has been and he's had the whole thing planned out in terms of what he wants to do for ages and ages. He really doesn't do anything that doesn't fit with his overall vision of what VO is meant to be and it's down to the T.
When I did the TRIPS missions for example he got me to change "The Propeller Group" to "TPG Corp" in the mission text because that's how he wanted the corporate image of the company to come across in the game and he explained the reasons for that very eloquently. That's just an example of the level of control he exerts over the finished product. It's not at all the case that he's only doing what the established players want, quite the opposite it's that as established players we know what direction and position he will take on certain issues and we know that we won't get anywhere unless they fit into his vision; and we are established players because we agree with his vision and know unequivocally that he is the best person to make it happen.
It's usually only the case that we've already proposed them previously and been privy to a well thought out and structured response like the one you've just read above so we know why it's not the direction that VO is going in and we understand it fully.
With the F2P issue I also don't like how VO can be such a progressive product being available on mobile and PC but be so behind and antiquated with the subscription business model. I also don't like the really stupid attitude some people in the community have towards the model saying they will quit if it ever happens as if there's no possible way it can be implemented well. But in any case, Incarnate posts on the topic do exist and they are satisfyingly in-depth - if you have any doubts that the dev team is somehow incompetent instead of just paddling upstream in a difficult marketplace then let me use this opportunity to reassure you that the latter is the case.
Incarnate is the visionary behind VO, always has been and he's had the whole thing planned out in terms of what he wants to do for ages and ages. He really doesn't do anything that doesn't fit with his overall vision of what VO is meant to be and it's down to the T.
When I did the TRIPS missions for example he got me to change "The Propeller Group" to "TPG Corp" in the mission text because that's how he wanted the corporate image of the company to come across in the game and he explained the reasons for that very eloquently. That's just an example of the level of control he exerts over the finished product. It's not at all the case that he's only doing what the established players want, quite the opposite it's that as established players we know what direction and position he will take on certain issues and we know that we won't get anywhere unless they fit into his vision; and we are established players because we agree with his vision and know unequivocally that he is the best person to make it happen.
It's usually only the case that we've already proposed them previously and been privy to a well thought out and structured response like the one you've just read above so we know why it's not the direction that VO is going in and we understand it fully.
With the F2P issue I also don't like how VO can be such a progressive product being available on mobile and PC but be so behind and antiquated with the subscription business model. I also don't like the really stupid attitude some people in the community have towards the model saying they will quit if it ever happens as if there's no possible way it can be implemented well. But in any case, Incarnate posts on the topic do exist and they are satisfyingly in-depth - if you have any doubts that the dev team is somehow incompetent instead of just paddling upstream in a difficult marketplace then let me use this opportunity to reassure you that the latter is the case.
also - people take this game development suggestion thing way to frakking seriously sometimes - boggles the mind. I mean it's fun and all but gawd damn!