Forums » Suggestions
I need to point something out. Where real-world spacecraft stats are concerned, acceleration is the important metric for computing speediness. And VO's ships have plenty of acceleration, especially at the low-end before the weird physics start kicking in. According to some data I gathered a few months ago, a Revenant (the standard model) has a 0-60 mph time of 1s. To be more specific, I clocked it at 1.033 seconds to reach 27.53 m/s, which is about 2.72 G of acceleration. And that's not some nimble little fighter, that's a low-end mining rig. I don't have measurements handy for a ship like the Rev-C or the Valk, but they probably get 4-6 G at the low end.
How does this compare to a modern jet? The VO ship is superior. Unless my 3-AM math is erroneous, which is very possible, I compute that the F-16 can produce about 1.4 G during acceleration with afterburners. Sorry USAF, you just got pwned by a newbie mining ship.
I should point out that the 9-G turns that fighter pilots pull off are completely irrelevant in this discussion, as they have nothing to do with engine power. Within the atmosphere they can "cheat" by using air to redirect their motion, which at high speed results in high G forces. In space, turns must be made entirely using engine power and occasionally gravity. So if an F-16 could fly in space, it could only achieve 1.4 G turns at best.
But yeah, our weaponry on the other hand don't compare favorably at all to what the modern world has, other than the whole infinite ammo energy cannon thing, and maybe the l-mine.
How does this compare to a modern jet? The VO ship is superior. Unless my 3-AM math is erroneous, which is very possible, I compute that the F-16 can produce about 1.4 G during acceleration with afterburners. Sorry USAF, you just got pwned by a newbie mining ship.
I should point out that the 9-G turns that fighter pilots pull off are completely irrelevant in this discussion, as they have nothing to do with engine power. Within the atmosphere they can "cheat" by using air to redirect their motion, which at high speed results in high G forces. In space, turns must be made entirely using engine power and occasionally gravity. So if an F-16 could fly in space, it could only achieve 1.4 G turns at best.
But yeah, our weaponry on the other hand don't compare favorably at all to what the modern world has, other than the whole infinite ammo energy cannon thing, and maybe the l-mine.
Its a friggin GAME NOT RL
@redotter: I figured you were having a laugh, though I do like the ideas of Monkeys per Salsa. THAT would be some interesting math...
My whole goal with this thread wasn't to suggest the game is broken and unplayable, but that there is a severe discrepancy between the length of time the citizens of the universe have been in space and the actual level of technology (apparently) attained.
Maybe I'm to much of a geek and sci-fi enthusiast. Maybe I'm just anal. Maybe I'm what someone would call a nit-picker.
The fact is, it just seems unbalanced and in my mind could be improves to match the universe the game is built in. But That's Just Me.
- Vadtec
My whole goal with this thread wasn't to suggest the game is broken and unplayable, but that there is a severe discrepancy between the length of time the citizens of the universe have been in space and the actual level of technology (apparently) attained.
Maybe I'm to much of a geek and sci-fi enthusiast. Maybe I'm just anal. Maybe I'm what someone would call a nit-picker.
The fact is, it just seems unbalanced and in my mind could be improves to match the universe the game is built in. But That's Just Me.
- Vadtec
I don't think the math would be that interesting. I mean, once you find out the average length of a monkey and the average duration of a salsa, it becomes just another speed unit. The interesting part would be trying to reach a consensus about what the individual units mean, e.g. what species of monkey to use, how to measure it, etc.
@Vadtec:
Sometime ago I did some "reverse-engineering" on our engines, with imagination on full.
We could have high speeds, but we swapped that for:
1. Endless "gravitic" propulsion without fuel, for small distances (maneuvering)
2. Jump engines for nullify long distances... intra-system normally or inter-system when activated near an wormhole.
3. High speeds, as Pizza said, requires long acceleration, and the same amount of braking, thus offering worse performance and increased dangers.
The way Gravitic engines work is by "focusing" gravity. You can have a wide focus, resulting in lower speeds with full maneuvrability, or a sharp focus, resulting in much higher speed in one single direction.
Those engines cannot be shut off when focused, so you cannot glide at turbo speed, must fall back to "max speed". The "Flight Assist" mode makes the engine remain active all the time, in wide focus mode, while when FA is off you can glide after impulse cease.
So, that "fantasy-Science" explains why we have a "fluid space", and that we can't glide at turbo speeds.
Sometime ago I did some "reverse-engineering" on our engines, with imagination on full.
We could have high speeds, but we swapped that for:
1. Endless "gravitic" propulsion without fuel, for small distances (maneuvering)
2. Jump engines for nullify long distances... intra-system normally or inter-system when activated near an wormhole.
3. High speeds, as Pizza said, requires long acceleration, and the same amount of braking, thus offering worse performance and increased dangers.
The way Gravitic engines work is by "focusing" gravity. You can have a wide focus, resulting in lower speeds with full maneuvrability, or a sharp focus, resulting in much higher speed in one single direction.
Those engines cannot be shut off when focused, so you cannot glide at turbo speed, must fall back to "max speed". The "Flight Assist" mode makes the engine remain active all the time, in wide focus mode, while when FA is off you can glide after impulse cease.
So, that "fantasy-Science" explains why we have a "fluid space", and that we can't glide at turbo speeds.
As for weapon velocity - if it's so fast you can't see it coming, it's no fun to dodge. Despite common misconception, VO is Dodgeball in Space, not Space-Quake.
The whole idea with Railguns is that they're supposed to be so fast you can't see them coming.
The whole idea with Railguns is that they're supposed to be so fast you can't see them coming.
@Alloh: Interesting theory, but even then, I would think 2292 years of development would lend it self to greatly improved gravitic engines capable of higher speeds with the same degree of control, or possibly even more control.
Using your gravitic style engines, I can see why the speeds would be more limitted in VO as they are. While IRL pilots would likely be able to zip around at extremely high speeds, in the game it's not nearly as easy.
Still, I fall back to my original reason for making this suggestion.
- Vadtec
Using your gravitic style engines, I can see why the speeds would be more limitted in VO as they are. While IRL pilots would likely be able to zip around at extremely high speeds, in the game it's not nearly as easy.
Still, I fall back to my original reason for making this suggestion.
- Vadtec
Waaaay back in the day ships in VO used to be able to accelerate to 240m/s. It was then nerfed back to 220m/s due to connection restraints at the time?
Why not just unnerf them?
Why not just unnerf them?
Arf, railguns are the exception. My point was that if all weapons were like that, it would be un-fun.
Vadtec: you say that like developing gravitic engines and warp drives is simple. IMO, we will consider ourselves lucky to have them at all even by 4440, let alone in a form that is small enough to put into a bus sized ship, and cheap enough to give away for free to anybody who wants one.
Anyway, I still don't see your point. I already dock at 500 mph on a regular basis, and fly into people's face to blast them at a relative velocity of 1000 mph. That is plenty fast. It doesn't make sense go much faster than we already can for the things we can do.
Sure, being able to would be nice, but that leads to a bunch of other implications, such as high speed hit-and-run, or possibly high-speed TU mine dropping. It also means the physics engine has to deal with a wider range of speeds, which can make it harder to keep the physics stable, smooth, and sane. High speeds also imply that people will travel large distances, which would require a bunch more physics engine work. Currently the game loses precision as you get far away from the sector's center. Turbo off into the void somtime and you'll see what I mean - everything gets jittery.
Your problem is that you want interplanetary speeds, but this is not an interplanetary game. I suggest that you go play Vega Strike for a while and get it out of your system ; )
Also, if you want realistic space combat, go read "Protector" by Larry Niven. In fact, go do that regardless if you haven't already. Great book. And it's short, so no excuses.
Vadtec: you say that like developing gravitic engines and warp drives is simple. IMO, we will consider ourselves lucky to have them at all even by 4440, let alone in a form that is small enough to put into a bus sized ship, and cheap enough to give away for free to anybody who wants one.
Anyway, I still don't see your point. I already dock at 500 mph on a regular basis, and fly into people's face to blast them at a relative velocity of 1000 mph. That is plenty fast. It doesn't make sense go much faster than we already can for the things we can do.
Sure, being able to would be nice, but that leads to a bunch of other implications, such as high speed hit-and-run, or possibly high-speed TU mine dropping. It also means the physics engine has to deal with a wider range of speeds, which can make it harder to keep the physics stable, smooth, and sane. High speeds also imply that people will travel large distances, which would require a bunch more physics engine work. Currently the game loses precision as you get far away from the sector's center. Turbo off into the void somtime and you'll see what I mean - everything gets jittery.
Your problem is that you want interplanetary speeds, but this is not an interplanetary game. I suggest that you go play Vega Strike for a while and get it out of your system ; )
Also, if you want realistic space combat, go read "Protector" by Larry Niven. In fact, go do that regardless if you haven't already. Great book. And it's short, so no excuses.
@arf: I have more faith in humanity to one day figure out space travel and be zipping around at many thousands of m/s or mph. If we can figure out how to make space probes the size of a small car go that fast, then we can surely make ships the size of a buss (or even larger) go that fast.
Being a programmer my self, I fully understand the programming and game play aspects and implications my suggestion would have. I'm not some kid who wants to go fast and pew pew everything in sight. Knowing full well what faster speeds would mean for the VO universe, I just thought it was weird that the game is so different from the back story.
Me personally, I would enjoy the game more with higher speeds. In the end, I still think this is a good suggestion, thought it seems I'm out numbered.
- Vadtec
Being a programmer my self, I fully understand the programming and game play aspects and implications my suggestion would have. I'm not some kid who wants to go fast and pew pew everything in sight. Knowing full well what faster speeds would mean for the VO universe, I just thought it was weird that the game is so different from the back story.
Me personally, I would enjoy the game more with higher speeds. In the end, I still think this is a good suggestion, thought it seems I'm out numbered.
- Vadtec
Vadtec, you should consider joining the PCC; we could use someone with programming skills.
Alloh's response is the most accurate to the backstory and my own explanations. The gravitic pulse technology used by the ships at normal flight speeds has fundamental limitations (for the sake of argument, physical-law type limitations), but uses no fuel and allows indefinite navigation. Coupled with jump engines and wormholes, it makes for a pretty reasonable way to get around without the needs for consumable fuels.
Also, as people have mentioned, I do plan for intra-sector navigation at higher speeds. Kind of a short-range jump.
As (perhaps) mentioned, we did experiment with unbounded speeds in early development and it was very.. weird. The gameplay experience was poor.
But, in reality, the single biggest real-world reason for ship speeds is the impact on network latency. The difference between a "playable multi-player game" and an "unplayable multi-player game" is the point where the speed differential of pilots becomes too great to render in 200ms interpolated packets, and still expect people to react. Yes, some people on ideal broadband connections in ideal locations (like me, for instance; I think I have a 4ms ping to the servers) could handle more, but the point is to not give such an advantage to lower-pings that it makes all gameplay over other topologies basically futile (like say, an LTE 4G connection that adds 100ms for packet setup).
So, while I'm all about adding other enhancements and tweaks down the road.. like methods of getting around in large sectors, fast-travel across the galaxy that has specific tradeoffs, etc.. certain fundamentals of combat speed within VO are not likely to change, as they are fundamentally limited by the speed of light (in this case, through a piece of fiber, which is about 66% of the speed of light in a vacuum, see this ancient and still-accurate article on the absolute limits of ping times). Barring the invention of FTL communications here on real-world earth, our particular pretend-future is kind of stuck with things as they are.
Also, as people have mentioned, I do plan for intra-sector navigation at higher speeds. Kind of a short-range jump.
As (perhaps) mentioned, we did experiment with unbounded speeds in early development and it was very.. weird. The gameplay experience was poor.
But, in reality, the single biggest real-world reason for ship speeds is the impact on network latency. The difference between a "playable multi-player game" and an "unplayable multi-player game" is the point where the speed differential of pilots becomes too great to render in 200ms interpolated packets, and still expect people to react. Yes, some people on ideal broadband connections in ideal locations (like me, for instance; I think I have a 4ms ping to the servers) could handle more, but the point is to not give such an advantage to lower-pings that it makes all gameplay over other topologies basically futile (like say, an LTE 4G connection that adds 100ms for packet setup).
So, while I'm all about adding other enhancements and tweaks down the road.. like methods of getting around in large sectors, fast-travel across the galaxy that has specific tradeoffs, etc.. certain fundamentals of combat speed within VO are not likely to change, as they are fundamentally limited by the speed of light (in this case, through a piece of fiber, which is about 66% of the speed of light in a vacuum, see this ancient and still-accurate article on the absolute limits of ping times). Barring the invention of FTL communications here on real-world earth, our particular pretend-future is kind of stuck with things as they are.
@incarnate: Thanks for the technical background info. I figured it was network latency that ultimately lead to the current implementation. I just wasn't sure how much of an impact that really had on gameplay. Now I know.
In light of the confirmed technical reasons for the "slow ship speeds" I relent. While I prefer the realism, even I don't want a game that requries I have fiber to even stand a chance at not getting blasted.
Given that this "suggestion" is now ultimately moot, I have another idea related to engines (though not to speed) that I might fully flesh out and post. As of yet, it's not well defined, and I'm not sure how the VO universe would handle it.
Thanks again for the info.
@Phaserlight: Thought about it, though I never really gave it much thought. I thought the PCC stuff was "build your own adventure using these building blocks". I'm sure it is, but now I'm curious why my programming skills would be handy. I'll catch you in game or on IRC when I get a chance.
- Vadtec
In light of the confirmed technical reasons for the "slow ship speeds" I relent. While I prefer the realism, even I don't want a game that requries I have fiber to even stand a chance at not getting blasted.
Given that this "suggestion" is now ultimately moot, I have another idea related to engines (though not to speed) that I might fully flesh out and post. As of yet, it's not well defined, and I'm not sure how the VO universe would handle it.
Thanks again for the info.
@Phaserlight: Thought about it, though I never really gave it much thought. I thought the PCC stuff was "build your own adventure using these building blocks". I'm sure it is, but now I'm curious why my programming skills would be handy. I'll catch you in game or on IRC when I get a chance.
- Vadtec
I personally find writing plugins to be far more satisfying than the PCC. For me, using the mission editor feels like having my hands tied behind my back. Not that it can't be fun and rewarding too. It definitely can. But it can also be really frustrating, especially when you're still learning what bugs and limitations it has. Things become more pleasant once you are able to plan out a mission without painting yourself into so many corners.
Ah, yes, I expected this all along. You see, you may have thought you had fooled everyone into thinking that you actually thought your idea was a good one, but I saw through the ruse!
Yes, I have for a long time suspected that you were just confirming your own suspicions of how the internet works. And now my suspicions are confirmed. You see, I have a sword, and a telephone.
The telephone has a weird blur on the screen. I think it's from getting wet, or something. Whatever. The point is, it is a good phone. It connects to my wifi.
The other day I was playing with my accordion, and I realized something. I realized that my long time love for science fiction and technology makes me an expert in all things that have any sort of relation. What's more, I realized that the important thing about any work, videogame or book, is its setting. And in this case, the setting is defined by the internets, since there is not much the devs can do about the platform that connects us.
Anyway, I realized that you, Vadtec, are also a self-professed sci fi fan and technological expert, and that you too would have realized that the speed of the game is an established fact defined by latencies and vague things like "fun."
So you see, you may have fooled people into thinking you were actually serious with your inane original post, but I saw through the ruse!
I have known all along that you were just asking leading questions to confirm your own well formed opinion! And I respect your devotion to the ruse. Good work, internet warrior, good work. Maybe next, we can swap stories about the first time we read a given heinlein novel, or the first time we realized that we're really elks at heart.
PS: I also have a whole bagful of rubber bands.
Yes, I have for a long time suspected that you were just confirming your own suspicions of how the internet works. And now my suspicions are confirmed. You see, I have a sword, and a telephone.
The telephone has a weird blur on the screen. I think it's from getting wet, or something. Whatever. The point is, it is a good phone. It connects to my wifi.
The other day I was playing with my accordion, and I realized something. I realized that my long time love for science fiction and technology makes me an expert in all things that have any sort of relation. What's more, I realized that the important thing about any work, videogame or book, is its setting. And in this case, the setting is defined by the internets, since there is not much the devs can do about the platform that connects us.
Anyway, I realized that you, Vadtec, are also a self-professed sci fi fan and technological expert, and that you too would have realized that the speed of the game is an established fact defined by latencies and vague things like "fun."
So you see, you may have fooled people into thinking you were actually serious with your inane original post, but I saw through the ruse!
I have known all along that you were just asking leading questions to confirm your own well formed opinion! And I respect your devotion to the ruse. Good work, internet warrior, good work. Maybe next, we can swap stories about the first time we read a given heinlein novel, or the first time we realized that we're really elks at heart.
PS: I also have a whole bagful of rubber bands.
@bunghole: You sir rank a 7 out of 10 on my weird person list. I appreciate your assumptions about me, though they are unfounded assumptions, and your post made me laugh. I'd suggest not trying to probe the inner depths of my mind...it's a scary place. Enjoy! :)
I'm pretty sure bunghole's mind is a scarier place than yours. And let's not even think about the real bung's mind. If you can call it that.
I have tried playing VO at the ludicrous speed that Inc mentioned. One of the draws of Vo is the "twitch-based" combat. At high speeds combat is like this:
"Hey, is that dot? It is! I wonder if it's friendly? (pew pew pew) Ah! It's an enemy! Pew pew pew! Okay, no damage. Now where'd that dot go?"
Faster guided weapons would be the obvious solution, and where's the twitch-based skill then?
"Hey, is that dot? It is! I wonder if it's friendly? (pew pew pew) Ah! It's an enemy! Pew pew pew! Okay, no damage. Now where'd that dot go?"
Faster guided weapons would be the obvious solution, and where's the twitch-based skill then?
/me casts **resurrection**
Actually, I think scale etc has a lot to do with it. Take the mps and just call it units per time... the speed scale and fun factor in VO is awesome.
I recently tried a game demo for the x / x3 games...
The scale of those capitals and space stations are HUGE (really detailed and awesome to fly through) and most ships are going from 130-250 mps, but no turbo and it takes for ever (as its single player, there is a speed up time 600x to help you get from A to B)
One trick in video games is 'the more stuff flying by, the faster it looks' - there are the odd 3d specks flying by in VO, but x3 uses some client side post effects which looks like 'mist/particles' and adds some basic motion blur to make it feel like you are going faster.. may be an easy implementation for the VO engine?
A nice mix between x3's speed/scale and VO's playability would be ideal.
I must admit, the blurry skymap of VO and the fact everything is relatively close does make the sectors feel 'small'. In x3 you just feel like this speck floating in the vastness of space as I imagine it would feel.
Here's a video showing scale of ships (huge planets, gigantic cap ships... colossal asteroids... ... ...behemoth space? ok... you get the jist of it.)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=os98YXIfsl0&feature=related
I recommend you try a demo to see what I mean.
http://www.egosoft.com/download/x3/demos_en.php
-my 2c
Actually, I think scale etc has a lot to do with it. Take the mps and just call it units per time... the speed scale and fun factor in VO is awesome.
I recently tried a game demo for the x / x3 games...
The scale of those capitals and space stations are HUGE (really detailed and awesome to fly through) and most ships are going from 130-250 mps, but no turbo and it takes for ever (as its single player, there is a speed up time 600x to help you get from A to B)
One trick in video games is 'the more stuff flying by, the faster it looks' - there are the odd 3d specks flying by in VO, but x3 uses some client side post effects which looks like 'mist/particles' and adds some basic motion blur to make it feel like you are going faster.. may be an easy implementation for the VO engine?
A nice mix between x3's speed/scale and VO's playability would be ideal.
I must admit, the blurry skymap of VO and the fact everything is relatively close does make the sectors feel 'small'. In x3 you just feel like this speck floating in the vastness of space as I imagine it would feel.
Here's a video showing scale of ships (huge planets, gigantic cap ships... colossal asteroids... ... ...behemoth space? ok... you get the jist of it.)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=os98YXIfsl0&feature=related
I recommend you try a demo to see what I mean.
http://www.egosoft.com/download/x3/demos_en.php
-my 2c
To improve your sense of speed, try the SpeedWarp plugin. :)