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The recent redux makes it so that nobody can be safe in both Itani and Serco space. If an Itani choses to be safe in Serco space, he must give up protection within his home space. By having more Serco standing than Itani, he is declaring sides, and should be making himself a target for the Itani nationalist guilds. If ONE and ITAN happen to be too squeamish to shoot their traitorous brethren, that's their problem. (I have no idea whether that is the case mind you.)
Anyway, I don't see why this should have any relevance whatsoever to guilds, or even being in the military. If all you want is to kill Itanis in Serco space, then just make that open to all Sercos. If the government is fine with nationalists and soldiers killing Itanis, why wouldn't they be okay with traders killing Itanis?
Now, if you want to make it so that Itanis who are members of the Itani military are fair game in Serco space regardless of standing, that is fine by me. Of course, any member of a military who has higher standing with the enemy really should be kicked out in the first place. For that matter, joining a military should cap your standing with the other side at just barely hated. Soldiers should not be able to enter enemy stations, period.
Anyway, I don't see why this should have any relevance whatsoever to guilds, or even being in the military. If all you want is to kill Itanis in Serco space, then just make that open to all Sercos. If the government is fine with nationalists and soldiers killing Itanis, why wouldn't they be okay with traders killing Itanis?
Now, if you want to make it so that Itanis who are members of the Itani military are fair game in Serco space regardless of standing, that is fine by me. Of course, any member of a military who has higher standing with the enemy really should be kicked out in the first place. For that matter, joining a military should cap your standing with the other side at just barely hated. Soldiers should not be able to enter enemy stations, period.
Yeah.. what Rin said.
Lector won this thread for correctly predicting the future.
I don't think this suggestion would be in line with Inc's stated core design goal of No Guild-Exclusive Content:
http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/1/25891?page=2#316793
http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/1/25891?page=2#316793
Just a scenario for you to consider.... Lets say Itan - Perhaps CS built a trident and decided to stage a raid on serco space. To do so he could build up his serco standing to admired and then haul a number of Itani raiders into Sol2 and act as a repair platform.
As the faction system stands - anyone who destroys his trident (which should be destroyed) would end up with a severe faction hit to his serco standing....
.... just a thought
As the faction system stands - anyone who destroys his trident (which should be destroyed) would end up with a severe faction hit to his serco standing....
.... just a thought
eve deals with this sort of thing by having the act of repairing somebody with an aggression timer set one on you as well. Vo could do something similar - a kos person docking with a trident in monitored space could flag the trident as tmp kos
But you do realize we already did this before tridents, via repair guns, right?
But you do realize we already did this before tridents, via repair guns, right?
The mechanic of being marked in some way for healing someone engaged in a given activity is not limited to eve. It was in place in Everquest long before Eve came on the scene, and I assume was in a number of other games as well.
Yeah, I guess you could use a Trident as a Trojan Horse and sneak KoS peoples into enemy regions.
Except... the border turrets tear Tridents apart. Hell, even a Connie will make it past two or three sectors worth of turrets.
Except... the border turrets tear Tridents apart. Hell, even a Connie will make it past two or three sectors worth of turrets.
The trojan horse usage isn't really a problem. The problem is parking the trident in an empty sector and using it as a place to get repairs and reloads while in enemy territory. People would be reluctant to kill it due to the faction penalty. Also, using the turrets to shoot people - the gunner takes the penalty, not the pilot, and player owned tridents don't have destructable turrets for some reason.
aye - the damage to the trident is easily dealt with by a single rep gun in the group
PaKettle wrote-
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One of the operating principles of VO is that no place is completely safe. It should never be totally safe for an Itani to stroll around serco space simply due to being POS. While the Itani may be a pillar of society the high command isnt going to spend a lot of time looking for someone who kills Itanis....
++++++++++++++++++ agreed
It seems to me that there is a paradox with the backstory and the pool of ideas of trying to solve this topic as it relates to factions achievement in general
If Itani's achieve Serco POS or admire as a result of hauling some freight this is bull to begin with
Killing the opposing nation should also be required to get POS which would also help to tank your opposing standing.
This might help keep to the Vendetta theme somewhat.
Serco who go to Itani space should Never be allowed to stroll through Itani space at least without being interogated by the marshall or escorted to a holding cell for questioning. Same with Itani's who come to Serco space
Being Serco/Itani is a proclaimation in the selection of that character.
So why would you proclaim to be the enemy of a waring nation and be allowed to just dock at the enemy station without some major issues.
Honesly I don't see how they will solve this problem in minor mini steps with this major conflict of the theme of Vendetta vs faction standing.
So far the pool of ideas varies and spawns from the faction standing point of view and the abuse of this system. Although not a bad idea I think it conflicts with the theme of Vendetta in general which is why there is so much trouble finding a good workable solution that players would like.
With the Vendetta theme in mind how can Serco ever be anything but hated in Itani space ? and vice versa ? and why ?
Who cares how much freight they hauled to get standing, it would be better to create a crafted device only for opposing factions or perhaps even UIT that you put in your cargo hold which will mask your faction standing but only on a limited basis such as a timed decoy/camoulflage but nothing perminent and certainly not for very long.
This would also allow you to attack other nations sectors if you had the crafted device to allow entrance for the short amount of time
Or even a weapon like a repair weapon that someone would fire on you to create the temporary camoulflage and give you cover for short times etc. That way your attack fleet could have at least one repair ship with this weapon, but again nothing perminant and it should wear off quickly, also there should be a counter measure to crack it too by the opposing nation if they suspect an attack by camoulflaged ships etc. This would even be cool in Deneb in short bursts
Maybe masking even your nation for a short time just to get goods and services hauled around, or to sneek attack only.
I would say that ALL Serco / Itani should be shot at by the turrets in nations space at all times unless there is some sort of device or something that will mask who they are or something to that effect.
Or some variations of this device or addon to allow entrance to that space, however the mashall would still be in the interogation business and perhaps could find them out in some way too if he got too close or something.
This way shooting in nation space could be allowed and justified but only so long as their nation is unknown to the system by use of a device or to get shot by the camoulfaging weapon or something like that.
I don't know if that is a good idea or not but something to work around the current nation faction standing seems to be the general agreement no matter the solution
Seems like something should be made to mark you so that your alliance is always being confirmed not simply by being POS but should be maintained or something
Such as required to kill 3 opposing NPC's in opposing nation space with while using the camoulflage device
It would not be hard to just go kill a guard or something at least one, and of course you might be killed by the turrets if your too close to them but you could hang out by jump point and do it.
Of course this would insure that hated factions standing of opposing nation stays hated which might not be good I guess, but anyhow just another idea
Happy blogging
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One of the operating principles of VO is that no place is completely safe. It should never be totally safe for an Itani to stroll around serco space simply due to being POS. While the Itani may be a pillar of society the high command isnt going to spend a lot of time looking for someone who kills Itanis....
++++++++++++++++++ agreed
It seems to me that there is a paradox with the backstory and the pool of ideas of trying to solve this topic as it relates to factions achievement in general
If Itani's achieve Serco POS or admire as a result of hauling some freight this is bull to begin with
Killing the opposing nation should also be required to get POS which would also help to tank your opposing standing.
This might help keep to the Vendetta theme somewhat.
Serco who go to Itani space should Never be allowed to stroll through Itani space at least without being interogated by the marshall or escorted to a holding cell for questioning. Same with Itani's who come to Serco space
Being Serco/Itani is a proclaimation in the selection of that character.
So why would you proclaim to be the enemy of a waring nation and be allowed to just dock at the enemy station without some major issues.
Honesly I don't see how they will solve this problem in minor mini steps with this major conflict of the theme of Vendetta vs faction standing.
So far the pool of ideas varies and spawns from the faction standing point of view and the abuse of this system. Although not a bad idea I think it conflicts with the theme of Vendetta in general which is why there is so much trouble finding a good workable solution that players would like.
With the Vendetta theme in mind how can Serco ever be anything but hated in Itani space ? and vice versa ? and why ?
Who cares how much freight they hauled to get standing, it would be better to create a crafted device only for opposing factions or perhaps even UIT that you put in your cargo hold which will mask your faction standing but only on a limited basis such as a timed decoy/camoulflage but nothing perminent and certainly not for very long.
This would also allow you to attack other nations sectors if you had the crafted device to allow entrance for the short amount of time
Or even a weapon like a repair weapon that someone would fire on you to create the temporary camoulflage and give you cover for short times etc. That way your attack fleet could have at least one repair ship with this weapon, but again nothing perminant and it should wear off quickly, also there should be a counter measure to crack it too by the opposing nation if they suspect an attack by camoulflaged ships etc. This would even be cool in Deneb in short bursts
Maybe masking even your nation for a short time just to get goods and services hauled around, or to sneek attack only.
I would say that ALL Serco / Itani should be shot at by the turrets in nations space at all times unless there is some sort of device or something that will mask who they are or something to that effect.
Or some variations of this device or addon to allow entrance to that space, however the mashall would still be in the interogation business and perhaps could find them out in some way too if he got too close or something.
This way shooting in nation space could be allowed and justified but only so long as their nation is unknown to the system by use of a device or to get shot by the camoulfaging weapon or something like that.
I don't know if that is a good idea or not but something to work around the current nation faction standing seems to be the general agreement no matter the solution
Seems like something should be made to mark you so that your alliance is always being confirmed not simply by being POS but should be maintained or something
Such as required to kill 3 opposing NPC's in opposing nation space with while using the camoulflage device
It would not be hard to just go kill a guard or something at least one, and of course you might be killed by the turrets if your too close to them but you could hang out by jump point and do it.
Of course this would insure that hated factions standing of opposing nation stays hated which might not be good I guess, but anyhow just another idea
Happy blogging
Someone actually gets the point.....
Im just saying someone needs to be able to deal with unwanted foreign nationals inspite of thier high standing. ...
I am thinking military with POS standing if vilgilante is ok or perhaps even a group vote on channel 11 to expel them like an unruly ambassador....
Im just saying someone needs to be able to deal with unwanted foreign nationals inspite of thier high standing. ...
I am thinking military with POS standing if vilgilante is ok or perhaps even a group vote on channel 11 to expel them like an unruly ambassador....
Hmmmm, expelling them sounds interesting too, but perhaps easily abused.
Seem like the itemized problems should be listed first to get a better overview and then try to itemize the solutions maybe.
It's a paradox of problems and solutions lol
The main problem is that a persons nation standing causes them not to shoot another player who has equal or POS standing this is a very big problem.
Regardless of the other various topics about faction standing nation players should be allowed to shoot another opposing nation player at anytime without penalty on one hand.
But on the other hand same nation players in nation space is another subject and I don't know what would be good for that ?
Should we let them kill eachother ? , do they get penalized ? and why ?
If their pirates do we want them penalized to ban them from nation space ?
Or just take away their standing and let them dock but have guards chasing them like in grey?
Difficult for sure
Seem like the itemized problems should be listed first to get a better overview and then try to itemize the solutions maybe.
It's a paradox of problems and solutions lol
The main problem is that a persons nation standing causes them not to shoot another player who has equal or POS standing this is a very big problem.
Regardless of the other various topics about faction standing nation players should be allowed to shoot another opposing nation player at anytime without penalty on one hand.
But on the other hand same nation players in nation space is another subject and I don't know what would be good for that ?
Should we let them kill eachother ? , do they get penalized ? and why ?
If their pirates do we want them penalized to ban them from nation space ?
Or just take away their standing and let them dock but have guards chasing them like in grey?
Difficult for sure
As I posted on another topic:
Pirates have no "same nation" limits, no RoE.
Privateers never attack ships from "same nation", but predate all others they want.
Simple limit and solution. But since UIT is not at war, should be no UIT privateers.
Serco and Itani Privateers are expected to be KoS with opposing faction, and are sanctioned to attack the enemy anywhere (except NFZs). They are the enemy, not matter if also a respected trader. Even inside UIT territory, resulting in minor UIT faction standing hit. UIT citizens are not the enemy, so keep current consequences/penalties.
So, nationalists become privateers, earn the right to engage "the enemy" anywhere without losing native standing.
Pirates have no "same nation" limits, no RoE.
Privateers never attack ships from "same nation", but predate all others they want.
Simple limit and solution. But since UIT is not at war, should be no UIT privateers.
Serco and Itani Privateers are expected to be KoS with opposing faction, and are sanctioned to attack the enemy anywhere (except NFZs). They are the enemy, not matter if also a respected trader. Even inside UIT territory, resulting in minor UIT faction standing hit. UIT citizens are not the enemy, so keep current consequences/penalties.
So, nationalists become privateers, earn the right to engage "the enemy" anywhere without losing native standing.
-1, it is stupid.
First of all, having a letter of marque from the Serco government doesn't mean the UIT are going to ignore violent acts committed within their territory. That is just silly. If Canada and Mexico went to war and the USA remained neutral, do you really think the USA would look the other way if some Mexicans with letters of marque drove up to Minnesota and assassinated some random Canadians who were shopping at the Mall of America?
Second of all, and I could be wrong on this, but I don't recall being a privateer requiring any kind of citizenship. In fact, I believe some people would carry letters of marque from several different nations, and they'd pull out whichever one was most appropriate for the ship they happened to be plundering at the time.
Thirdly: we already have a military system, so no need for a separate "privateer" system. Just finish implementing the military one.
Fourthly: Privateers did their dirty work out in the ocean, not in the streets of London.
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Edit: Look, there's a simple solution to this. Just reduce the general penalty for killing people who are from a faction who the local faction dislikes. So if anybody kills a Serco in Itani space, they'd get a lower penalty than if they' killed a UIT of equal standing. For that matter, slightly lower the penalty for killing any foreigner (but not as much as an enemy). And I'm not saying that the penalty for killing the enemy should be completely nerfed either, but make it more comparable to the penalties that greyspace stations use, rather than the huge one that nations have. You still wouldn't want to do it, but you could get away with killing a few of them before you risk becoming hated.
(It isn't being able to kill the enemy I have issues with. What I have issues with is construing ridiculous circumstances to excuse it.)
First of all, having a letter of marque from the Serco government doesn't mean the UIT are going to ignore violent acts committed within their territory. That is just silly. If Canada and Mexico went to war and the USA remained neutral, do you really think the USA would look the other way if some Mexicans with letters of marque drove up to Minnesota and assassinated some random Canadians who were shopping at the Mall of America?
Second of all, and I could be wrong on this, but I don't recall being a privateer requiring any kind of citizenship. In fact, I believe some people would carry letters of marque from several different nations, and they'd pull out whichever one was most appropriate for the ship they happened to be plundering at the time.
Thirdly: we already have a military system, so no need for a separate "privateer" system. Just finish implementing the military one.
Fourthly: Privateers did their dirty work out in the ocean, not in the streets of London.
-----
Edit: Look, there's a simple solution to this. Just reduce the general penalty for killing people who are from a faction who the local faction dislikes. So if anybody kills a Serco in Itani space, they'd get a lower penalty than if they' killed a UIT of equal standing. For that matter, slightly lower the penalty for killing any foreigner (but not as much as an enemy). And I'm not saying that the penalty for killing the enemy should be completely nerfed either, but make it more comparable to the penalties that greyspace stations use, rather than the huge one that nations have. You still wouldn't want to do it, but you could get away with killing a few of them before you risk becoming hated.
(It isn't being able to kill the enemy I have issues with. What I have issues with is construing ridiculous circumstances to excuse it.)
Well, the UIT subject is sort of separate to the Itani/Serco subject although it overlaps.
But I don't think that there should be any faction hit for Itani killing Serco in Itani space at all, and vise versa. They attacked the enemy of the war but this means Serco could not come in and start shooting Itani no matter what in Itani space that seems normal to me for waring nations
UIT with Itani Standing on the other hand, in Itani space, appears at first glance you would want to penalize the Itani killer, but this is where all sorts of variation and abuse of the faction standing system seems to happen
Ok in Itani space Itani kills UIT gets penalized, UIT kills Itani get penalized and lose standing, however shouldn't it be that the one who fired and hit the opponent should be the one who get penalized not simply for the UIT who fires back and kills the one who initiated the event ?
I mean currently if UIT gets shot by Itani what's he going to do ? watch the guards maybe chase em ?
So thats not bad, but if they abuse the system they can kill UIT no prob and work up standing again, thats not good either.
On one hand I like the faction standing but don't like the fact that you can't dock and actually pirate in hated stations.
I understand why but also that doesn't mean that it should be absolute either since pirates do and can work around the legal system.
And the way the faction system works is that if you kill someone at a station who has standing then you could end up hated and not able to dock and treated as a pirate hated everywhere and perhaps you should be.
However, I don't know that restricting docking is the best idea even though you think of it as an allowed government authorization, but simply flying your ship in does not declare that your a pirate and thus there should be some allowance to work around that without abuse.
If you make the game too legalistic no one would be allowed to shoot anyone anywhere if there is any witnesses, such as I say Serco shoot Itani and this was confirmed cause I was in the same sector thus Serco looses all Itani standing etc.
Techinically this should be investigated and a trial with a witness, but if thats how legal the faction standing gets then no one could shoot anyone anywhere there were any witnesses even B8 etc.
So fixing the abuse without focusing too much on the legal logistics will be better then trying to see logic in it because the logic would dictate that no one should be shooting anyone without cause to begin with.
The idea is to make it so the faction system can't be abused yet let people shoot each other at the same time which is sort of the paradox in general.
Long post I know, but it's complicated and simple at the same time too.
What would be the problem with using faction standing for better equipment / weapons and missions, but still letting people dock without worry of losing faction standing when shooting someone.
This is the abuse part that comes in.
I don't know that it can be fixed with this major paradox in mind.
But I don't think that there should be any faction hit for Itani killing Serco in Itani space at all, and vise versa. They attacked the enemy of the war but this means Serco could not come in and start shooting Itani no matter what in Itani space that seems normal to me for waring nations
UIT with Itani Standing on the other hand, in Itani space, appears at first glance you would want to penalize the Itani killer, but this is where all sorts of variation and abuse of the faction standing system seems to happen
Ok in Itani space Itani kills UIT gets penalized, UIT kills Itani get penalized and lose standing, however shouldn't it be that the one who fired and hit the opponent should be the one who get penalized not simply for the UIT who fires back and kills the one who initiated the event ?
I mean currently if UIT gets shot by Itani what's he going to do ? watch the guards maybe chase em ?
So thats not bad, but if they abuse the system they can kill UIT no prob and work up standing again, thats not good either.
On one hand I like the faction standing but don't like the fact that you can't dock and actually pirate in hated stations.
I understand why but also that doesn't mean that it should be absolute either since pirates do and can work around the legal system.
And the way the faction system works is that if you kill someone at a station who has standing then you could end up hated and not able to dock and treated as a pirate hated everywhere and perhaps you should be.
However, I don't know that restricting docking is the best idea even though you think of it as an allowed government authorization, but simply flying your ship in does not declare that your a pirate and thus there should be some allowance to work around that without abuse.
If you make the game too legalistic no one would be allowed to shoot anyone anywhere if there is any witnesses, such as I say Serco shoot Itani and this was confirmed cause I was in the same sector thus Serco looses all Itani standing etc.
Techinically this should be investigated and a trial with a witness, but if thats how legal the faction standing gets then no one could shoot anyone anywhere there were any witnesses even B8 etc.
So fixing the abuse without focusing too much on the legal logistics will be better then trying to see logic in it because the logic would dictate that no one should be shooting anyone without cause to begin with.
The idea is to make it so the faction system can't be abused yet let people shoot each other at the same time which is sort of the paradox in general.
Long post I know, but it's complicated and simple at the same time too.
What would be the problem with using faction standing for better equipment / weapons and missions, but still letting people dock without worry of losing faction standing when shooting someone.
This is the abuse part that comes in.
I don't know that it can be fixed with this major paradox in mind.