Forums » Suggestions
Hurry up and bring in the radar limiter.
Yeah, long long long overdue, as this is the one I'm most anticipating..
+1, as well as the myriad other awesome radar updates; detection based upon mass, fake ID, etc.
What the heck is a radar limiter?
I assumed he meant having people who are too far away drop out of the sector list, like in fogged sectors.
With radar range only being 5000m, i've got to -1 this one.
The thing I'm most sick of this enabling though is the detection of ships millions and millions of kilometers away by spybots.
Maybe there should be some delay in sensor logs depending on how far away you are.
Maybe there should be some delay in sensor logs depending on how far away you are.
So people don't like spy bots. I get this. But would it really make that much more difference if a person were physically seated at the computer?
So the desired end result is a reduction in the ability for people to track you from a distance preventing retaliation. As has been argued in the past, people complain enough as it is about not seeing other ships, and having people drop off the radar completely if they are too far away could only exasperate the situation. Perhaps the better compromise would be graduated radar capabilities dependent on range to the target.
>20km - Presence of other ships in the sector
20km - Type of ship and name of pilot
5km - Target-lock possible, tracking of location
Frankly, I don't see what the big issue is. If you're so worried about someone knowing where you were at, then hire an escort. It's not like there are all that many routes through grey-space anyway.
So the desired end result is a reduction in the ability for people to track you from a distance preventing retaliation. As has been argued in the past, people complain enough as it is about not seeing other ships, and having people drop off the radar completely if they are too far away could only exasperate the situation. Perhaps the better compromise would be graduated radar capabilities dependent on range to the target.
>20km - Presence of other ships in the sector
20km - Type of ship and name of pilot
5km - Target-lock possible, tracking of location
Frankly, I don't see what the big issue is. If you're so worried about someone knowing where you were at, then hire an escort. It's not like there are all that many routes through grey-space anyway.
Principle of the matter. Or are you one of those "Who cares if the government knows what you're doing? If you don't do anything wrong it doesn't matter!" people?
I am a fan of having a separate distance before the radar fails to detect a ship (or does, but cannot ID it ala your suggestion). My opinion is that if I can see the person's name in the sector list, it should be feasible for me to explore a bit and find that person so I can kill him. I don't care if the ship is a bot or a human. People who cannot feasibly be found should not be shown to each other.
20 km or so would be sufficient for all normal situations, and would not cause space to seem any more lonely than it already is.
I am a fan of having a separate distance before the radar fails to detect a ship (or does, but cannot ID it ala your suggestion). My opinion is that if I can see the person's name in the sector list, it should be feasible for me to explore a bit and find that person so I can kill him. I don't care if the ship is a bot or a human. People who cannot feasibly be found should not be shown to each other.
20 km or so would be sufficient for all normal situations, and would not cause space to seem any more lonely than it already is.
+1 draugath's 3 zones. 0...5...20km BUT for lock/id/NO INFO for small ships. Why detect that there are ships that you can't trace? So, any ship beyond 20km becomes effectively invisible, including to sector list. Also his sector list becomes empty and it cannot trace ships entering sector, unless they come within 20km form each other.
+1 to draugs three, except, knock them off the list when they're behind something. Radar doesn't penetrate objects, and this opens up more stealth techniques.
Alloh said:
Why detect that there are ships that you can't trace? So, any ship beyond 20km becomes effectively invisible, including to sector list. Also his sector list becomes empty and it cannot trace ships entering sector, unless they come within 20km form each other.
I would much rather know that there is something in the sector if it is outside of the show info range, than get an empty report. Especially if I'm doing a mission and need to know whether the NPCs I might be hunting are actually in the sector... somewhere. This is really the only argument I have against hiding ship information at any range, though a weak one. Plus, we get back to the silliness that is a 5km active radar with target-locking, considering we have radar in the real world that can lock targets around 100miles away. I also understand that inside of the game there needs to be some sort of balance to make things fun/interesting.
Besides, jumping into/out of a sector creates a detectable disturbance. Either that or our ships use projector system to display a flashy light show when they jump, in which case I want to disable mine.
tarenty said:
...except, knock them off the list when they're behind something. Radar doesn't penetrate objects,...
Since this system is already implemented at <5km, I don't see why it couldn't be extended to long range. Just be aware that roids that block radar at close range may not be large enough to effectively block radar at long range.
Why detect that there are ships that you can't trace? So, any ship beyond 20km becomes effectively invisible, including to sector list. Also his sector list becomes empty and it cannot trace ships entering sector, unless they come within 20km form each other.
I would much rather know that there is something in the sector if it is outside of the show info range, than get an empty report. Especially if I'm doing a mission and need to know whether the NPCs I might be hunting are actually in the sector... somewhere. This is really the only argument I have against hiding ship information at any range, though a weak one. Plus, we get back to the silliness that is a 5km active radar with target-locking, considering we have radar in the real world that can lock targets around 100miles away. I also understand that inside of the game there needs to be some sort of balance to make things fun/interesting.
Besides, jumping into/out of a sector creates a detectable disturbance. Either that or our ships use projector system to display a flashy light show when they jump, in which case I want to disable mine.
tarenty said:
...except, knock them off the list when they're behind something. Radar doesn't penetrate objects,...
Since this system is already implemented at <5km, I don't see why it couldn't be extended to long range. Just be aware that roids that block radar at close range may not be large enough to effectively block radar at long range.
Draugath: they still show up on the list if they are hiding behind a roid you just lose target lock, That needs to be fixed
This would be cool if you could see like 20 or 40km but only able to lock a target within 5.
+1 for the asteroid blocking. I didn't even think about that.
+1 for the asteroid blocking. I didn't even think about that.
Asteroids should cause a one tier change. If they were close enough to be targetable, they become non-targetable. If they were close enough to be detectable but not targetable, they become undetectable.
The disturbance of warping is a good point. If a ship warps in beyond radar range, you should still get some kind of notification that something has entered the sector. Same for warping out. But you shouldn't automatically know about ships that were already there when you got there, unless you get close enough. That way it allows ambushes.
The disturbance of warping is a good point. If a ship warps in beyond radar range, you should still get some kind of notification that something has entered the sector. Same for warping out. But you shouldn't automatically know about ships that were already there when you got there, unless you get close enough. That way it allows ambushes.
I like a lot of the ideas in this thread, but what is the potential data transfer increase from trying to implement this. I know Incarnate has made strong efforts to minimize data traffic to keep a level playing field for all connection types.
No data traffic involved. Server calculates distance between two ships. If Distance>Max.Range then NO data is sent. IF D<M.R then ships info is sent to each client. Same applies to appear or not in sector list.
Quick example, for easier understanting, let's suppose that there is only one entry point in sector, located at (0,0,0)., so, a ship S1 located at (0,0,21km) will become invisible to any ship entering sector, but also will not be able to see who enters sector.
while a ship S2 near (0,0,10km) would be able to see both S1 and incoming ships, remaining visible to both...
(...[....0.{......S1.....)..S2....]....} --> Ranges: (entrance) [s1] {s2}
Quick example, for easier understanting, let's suppose that there is only one entry point in sector, located at (0,0,0)., so, a ship S1 located at (0,0,21km) will become invisible to any ship entering sector, but also will not be able to see who enters sector.
while a ship S2 near (0,0,10km) would be able to see both S1 and incoming ships, remaining visible to both...
(...[....0.{......S1.....)..S2....]....} --> Ranges: (entrance) [s1] {s2}
The server would have to continually update the client's list of visible targets, especially if they start disappearing by going behind roids. Under the current system, there is minimal traffic because new character information is only sent to the clients in the sector when a character enters and leaves the sector and when they enter and leave the <5k radar range.
I suppose the number of updates wouldn't grow that much, but there could still be enough new events to cause some really slow connections to have issues, especially in large battles.
And why are you so fixated on having no information at all about ships that are outside of an arbitrary range? If anything, Rin's idea is the best compromise. As an addendum to Rin's idea, and keeping with my belief that at the very minimum the presence of ships inside of a sector be known, only ships that have zero thrust should be able to be undetected by initial scans upon entering a sector, if they are outside of a given range.
I suppose the number of updates wouldn't grow that much, but there could still be enough new events to cause some really slow connections to have issues, especially in large battles.
And why are you so fixated on having no information at all about ships that are outside of an arbitrary range? If anything, Rin's idea is the best compromise. As an addendum to Rin's idea, and keeping with my belief that at the very minimum the presence of ships inside of a sector be known, only ships that have zero thrust should be able to be undetected by initial scans upon entering a sector, if they are outside of a given range.
The server would have to continually update the client's list of visible targets, especially if they start disappearing by going behind roids.
Add some "timeout" or persistance for sector list. Problem solved and more logical. Once your sector list "finds" someone, it keeps the information until that person warps away or during Xmin after last contact.
Why invisibility? To allow shady mining, sector observation, ambushes, etc. and restrict bots to stations (or make possible hunt them).
And I'd like to relate detection range to speed / weapons usage / etc... but will be satisfied with an initial simpler implementation.
Add some "timeout" or persistance for sector list. Problem solved and more logical. Once your sector list "finds" someone, it keeps the information until that person warps away or during Xmin after last contact.
Why invisibility? To allow shady mining, sector observation, ambushes, etc. and restrict bots to stations (or make possible hunt them).
And I'd like to relate detection range to speed / weapons usage / etc... but will be satisfied with an initial simpler implementation.
In this post, "visible" refers to radar visibility.
Traffic could be reduced by having a timing requirement for radar status to change. If a ship was visible and passes behind a roid for a couple seconds and then emerges, its status should not change. Similarly for a ship that was not visible and only briefly enters visible range. Note that this applies both ways - the distant ship would not see you when he quickly peeks out, unless he stays out long enough for you to detect him.
This way a distant ship could at most trigger one update every X seconds, where X is the delay required.
That's just for the distant ships that aren't in targeting range. Ships within targeting range that pass behind a roid should continue working how they do now.
Traffic could be reduced by having a timing requirement for radar status to change. If a ship was visible and passes behind a roid for a couple seconds and then emerges, its status should not change. Similarly for a ship that was not visible and only briefly enters visible range. Note that this applies both ways - the distant ship would not see you when he quickly peeks out, unless he stays out long enough for you to detect him.
This way a distant ship could at most trigger one update every X seconds, where X is the delay required.
That's just for the distant ships that aren't in targeting range. Ships within targeting range that pass behind a roid should continue working how they do now.