I think it would be good if pirates (actually anyone) had the option of leaving their faction and become grey.
I'm pretty sure this has been suggested, which makes me wonder why this is still not possible...

Maybe make it so that you can leave your main faction for a faction-standing penalty of 250 points.
And maybe allow joining factions when you get +1000 (PoS) status. (with some restrictions: eg. you shouldn't be able to join the factions which have no descriptions, and a former serco/itani shouldn't be able to join itani/serco).

"I'm pretty sure this has been suggested"

It has, many times. Some of the renditions were good, some were utter drivel.

I agree with allowing people to be "grey"/unaligned in the sense of allowing them to not affiliate with any faction. It would be the complete absence of faction, not a "grey faction". There would of course be no "grey faction level".

There are arguments for and against being able to change your faction to any arbitrary one (with appropriate requirements to meet before you can be considered a candidate). The main argument against it is that it dilutes the primary conflict in the game - serco vs. itani - which is already not very strong.

In any case, the faction system as a whole is widely regarded to be one of the main things that needs significant fixing done.

Well I can live with not being able to go back once decided to go unaligned. I'd be very happy in fact.
And if joining an arbitrary faction is not an option, maybe rejoining the previous faction could be, but again, no need.

As for a conflict between Serco and Itani, I'm sorry but I can't think of any *good* suggestions about that. Whatever I seem to come up with seems either stupid or simply... unnatural. Like, say, make geining faction-standing on one side lose faction standing on the other side or something... mhhh...

Well if I can come up with anything solid I'll post it here, but I'm not the most creative type... sadly...

We'd need a damn well written mission string a la EV Nova imo.

Bluvd its a decent short term suggestion but something more complete is in the works or close to it. The devs have this high up on the list as part of the faction redux, and its been gone over multiple times.

Also why isn't faction redux/grey faction not listed in the "READ BEFORE POSTING THREAD"?

Dunno. I was all gonna post a snarky link to it only for it to let me down :(

"either stupid or simply... unnatural. Like, say, make geining faction-standing on one side lose faction standing on the other side or something"

This not only not stupid but completely natural, and should have been done years ago!

you mean it's not unnatural, because stupid it is - it maybe the case in reality, but it would still be stupid if a UIT member couldn't be friends with both serco and itani :) ... on the other hand... you shouldn't be able to get to a point where both factions sell you their "special goods"... because that would lead to potential "trading" of such goods... ummmm.... so maybe it really isn't stupid after all... since they have no way to enforce some "code of honor" on you :P

If you are selling weapons and supplies to my enemy, who is killing my friends and family and wishes to see my entire race exterminated or enslaved, you are not going to be my friend. Individual UIT can be more friendly with one or the other nation, but not both. For UIT-Itani trade, the UIT would send an Itani-friendly UIT, and for UIT-Serco trade, they'd send a Serco-friendly one. Those who wish to work both sides would have neutral standings with both - because they are being neutral.

If you take sides and be friendly with one, then you are not being neutral.

Trading between Itani and Serco is a desired thing - ideally there would be contraband and such, so you could take Itani goods and smuggle them out of Itani space and into Serco space and sell them to shadier people, at the risk of border guards attacking you etc. People who are neutral could work both sides for the more mundane items, but for the high faction items, you'd have to have more than one person involved - a high-faction/low-faction person (possibly a native) to procure the item, and somebody who is either low-faction/high-faction or else neutral/neutral to deliver it.

Some ideas:
Smuggling could be left to players, and should be a relatively good way to make money. Seeing how some things are already stored on items, (eg. to be able to see the actual profit you make from selling), I think it would be a nice idea to also add 2 more points of data to items: Who bought it (if bought at an itani/serco station), and if it was jettisoned or dropped after being killed.

For instance: You buy at an itani station, jettison it to hand it over to your "Serco"-Affiliate, and he sells it at a serco station: You should lose itani standing points. (To make it "work": Just imagine the nations putting hidden tags/tracking systems on those items.)
If on the other hand you get blown up, you might even gain points because you tried to defend the cargo against a Serco, or Serco-friendly player.

Another idea: Delivery missions from neutral to serco or itani space which work like current CTC transports, except executed by players.

Additionally: Whichever faction wins the "player-ctc week" could become owner of some special station in neutral space. Just a general well-positioned station to which the faction can pull back if desired/necessary. In this case, UITs should only be allowed to dock when they're actually friendly with the owning faction, not just neutral. Or, if allowed, then make some manufacturing missions only available to friendly players.

+1 for unaligned

This "4th Faction" really needs a RFC to be sticky in "READ BEFORE POSTING THREAD"...

Anyway, let's call it 4th Faction, since name here won't matter. Unaligned is the Hive and devs. Corvus is Black. Fourth works for whatever concept, from 'no apparent faction' to 'pirate nation'...

Fourth Faction should be a choice for player from any origin, and fixes properly IFF and diplomatic relations.

4F does not weaken the war. They are unrelated layers, just like mining have no interference on Deneb war. Miners won't go to war, normally. Pirates neither, since combat ships are neither easy nor valuable targets. So, invalid argument.

UIT and 4F must be mutually KoS, like a declared war, while (Serco,Itani) and (UIT,4F) start as neutral. That allows good interactions. This same idea must be applied to Serco/Itani, mutually exclusive. Something as, when you add the STANDING values for any player:
Serco+Itani = 0
UIT+4F = 0

Just as comparison, any player can have at most 2 PoS, one for each "couple". The better standing you get with one side, the lower it will be with its nemesis. But standing should NOT affect the other couple, i.e., UIT/4F standing changes have no effect over Itani/Serco standing.

Maybe make a very simplified standing level for 4th Faction, something like only 3 levels, KoS/Neutral/PoS. Or use 100pt steps, to make evolution much faster in 4F.

Finally, make 4th faction have exclusive ships and stuff, while its "capital" is the ressurected Itani Ark, therefore like a mobile station!

"Fourth works for whatever concept, from 'no apparent faction' to 'pirate nation'..."

No, it does not. Unaligned is a special case. Being unaligned means not having a faction. There would be no standing with the "unaligned faction" because it isn't a faction. It is the lack of faction.

Also, being unaligned does not imply being evil. It means only that you belong to yourself. You might be friendly or you might be a murderer. So in the case of unaligned, you wouldn't automatically be KOS to any factions, other than factions who just consider all outsiders to be KOS.

As for the stuff you posted, no. Calling your unified pirate faction "4th faction" does not change the fact that it is a bad idea. It has always been a bad idea and always will, so you might as well stop posting it and move on. We pirates are not unified. There is no pirate government that we all belong to that you can build your standing with. Yes, there should be a number of minor factions which are pirates, but not a unified faction, and there should still be an ability for independent people (whether pirates or not) to be unaligned.

I have to go with Pizzasgood here. I - and I'm sure all the people who previously posted this suggestion as well - never meant it to be an actual faction. Unaligned players are in no way related to each other, just as they're not related to any other nation.
It would not make any sense if a UIT player who earns PoS status in UIT is suddenly KoS for people who don't give a crap...

Becoming unaligned is supposed to be an option for people who don't want to participate in their nations politics and wars. It's for UITs who don't like the system, and it's for Serco and Itanis who don't want to be at war with the other faction.

But I think there needs to be something which would make it worth actually fighting the war ;)
So the serco/itani war doesn't suddenly come to an "unexpected end" because nobody wants to fight :P

For every practical aspect, the Hive is already a faction, named unaligned, with 3 sub-factions...

And who said that everybody in same "nation" is friendly to each other? Valent/Axia are declared enemies while being UIT. Serco pirates hunt Serco newbies for PK pleasure, since profit is very low...

Game Engine is a simplification of reality. Why the Hive Bots do not attack other hive bots, but attack NPCs, who are bots also? Faction tag differ... So engine knows that two "objects" should "attack" each other. And if you say "no tags", that is a tag if other factions have a tag. Think of ships and national flags... Most ships have a country flag, while those ships without any flag, or using a jolly roger, or a white flag, or a red cross flag, all those can be considered "non-national". Same principle applies to 4th faction.

And the simplified "standing" system is required so members of 4th faction can have relations with other factions, like a smuggler who is UIT KoS, but Serco and Itani neutral (S+I=0)... even neutral with UIT should be possible, resulting in native neutral. While the simplified system favours that pilots take one side, like (native+serco PoS, uit+itani KoS).

Back on Deneb war, for me, let the bots fight the war, and those who likes to "fight the enemy". I prefer another gameplay, as does the miners, EMS members and even pirates. Why should a pirate go to Deneb war? So, those layers does not affect each other.

"For every practical aspect, the Hive is already a faction, named unaligned, with 3 sub-factions..."

They are unaligned with respect to the 13 formalized factions. If the devs made a set of actual factions for the three hives, they could then belong to those instead. But currently those factions don't exist, so the hive is declared as unaligned. This does not mean the hive owns the term.

"Valent/Axia are declared enemies while being UIT."

Now you are just being silly. Valent is Valent and Axia is Axia. RP-wise they are members of the UIT, but faction-wise they are their own factions. But yes, sometimes people within a faction disagree or are enemies. That is not the important thing. The important thing is that they still consider themselves to be working to support the faction, even if they feel the other one is a traitor. They are parts of a whole. Pirates are not. We are individuals. Also, most members of any given faction are friendly with eachother. Sure, there are occasional outliers, but the majority get along and cooperate. With pirates, it is every guild and rat for himself. We might be friendlier to eachother than to traders, but only in the same way that most traders are friendlier to eachother than to pirates.

"Game Engine is a simplification of reality."

As far as the game engine goes, yes "unaligned" would be treated internally as a special faction rather than a literal lack of a faction. So what? When I say that "unaligned" is not a faction, I mean in the logical sense, describing how it should behave. Internally it might be considered a special faction, but it would function in a way as to simulate being a lack of faction. It would not allow you to have standing with it, the in-game text would not describe it as a faction, etc.

"And the simplified "standing" system is required so members of 4th faction can have relations with other factions"

No it isn't. An unaligned person would still have their own individual faction levels with all other factions, just as everybody already does now. What they would not have is a standing with the "unaligned faction", since it isn't a real faction. So two unaligned people wouldn't be able to do a simple faction-level comparison to determine friend or foe. That is a problem that the unaligned people would have to deal with themselves, and is a price they'd have to pay for being unaligned. But all the rest of the people in the game, who belong to a nation, will just check our individual standing with their nation - just like they do now. If I have been killing newbies in Itani space, it will not matter whether I am unaligned, UIT, Serco, or Itani. My Itani standing will still decrease, and other Itanis will still recognize me as an enemy. Duh.

You are starting to understand, Pizza... a little more and you will notice that an 'unaligned' facion is another faction...

So two unaligned people wouldn't be able to do a simple faction-level comparison to determine friend or foe.

This is exactly how it happens now, inside any nation. So no change in gameplay if 4th faction have standings.

More important is how that faction NPC's react to other's "local standing". Turrets and guards need at least KoS/Neutral. A UIT smuggler must be neutral with 4th faction to trade with it...

If I have been killing newbies in Itani space, it will not matter whether I am unaligned, UIT, Serco, or Itani. My Itani standing will still decrease, and other Itanis will still recognize me as an enemy.

wasn't you the one saying that unaligned should not have standings? Now you want standings back? Make up your mind, or accept simplified standings for 4th faction, at least 2 levels, KoS and Neutral.

And between 2 players on 4th, "local" standing does not matter, nor the guards care about who shoots who, even less than corvus;

Alloh, you are somehow misunderstanding me. I will try to be very explicit.

Right now, I am UIT. I have a UIT standing. I also have standings with all other factions. If the UIT had special privileges (like how Itani and Serco can buy Neut-3s when they win CTC) I would have access to those.

If I abandoned the UIT and became Unaligned, I would not have a standing with the unaligned "faction" (because it isn't a faction). I would still have the standings with all other factions, including UIT. I would have to give up any privileges that I formerly had as a member of the UIT, if there were any. (If I were a Serco/Itani, I'd no longer be able to buy Neut-3s).

I don't know why you cannot seem to understand this, but being unaligned means that you are an INDEPENDENT. You still would have standings with other factions. You just do not belong to any of them. When asked what faction you belonged to, you would say "None. I am unaligned." An unaligned person is his own micro-faction. If there are ten unaligned people, then those are ten independent micro-factions. They are not a unified group of people that outsiders could build or lose faction with, because they are independents. When you kill somebody who is Orion, the Tunguska do not care. When you kill one unaligned guy, the other unaligned guy will not care. They are independent. Do you see now why unaligned is not a faction and a person could not have standing with it?

"More important is how that faction NPC's react to other's "local standing". Turrets and guards need at least KoS/Neutral. A UIT smuggler must be neutral with 4th faction to trade with it..."

If there were to be unaligned NPCs and stations, then yes there would need to be a way to determine whether the NPC or station likes each individual who enters. I don't know what the best way to do that would be. Keep in mind that, as I keep repeating (and you keep ignoring) each unaligned station would be independent. Raising my standing with one would not necessarily have any impact on my standing with another - unless they are owned by the same unaligned NPC (but in that case, that particular group should be formalized into its own minor faction). You could literally treat each unaligned station as a separate faction so that each player would have a pile of standings corresponding to all the unaligned stations. (Just to be clear, I'm talking about having a separate standing for each unaligned entity, NOT a single standing that covers all unaligned entities (because that would be impossible)). That might get inefficient if there are too many unaligned stations. But there shouldn't be many, because they are mostly people who have left society and hang out on the fringes. They should definitely be a minority, at least in terms of NPCs, stations, etc. And those standings should be hidden from the player, at least by default (a collapsible listbox or something).

So rather than worry about that, just don't have unaligned NPCs and stations. It's mainly the players that should have the option to be unaligned (and the option to create our own factions, eventually). If we want NPC pirates, make a minor faction or two who are pirates for them to belong to (not the grand unified pirate faction however).