When I first started playing VO, my first grey space venture may have stood out the most. The thrill of being hunted, and chased down by a pirate was like nothing other. Grey space meant something back then: that only the strong survived. Now that I've resubbed, as of late, I have rarely ran into a pirate, VPR, or trader. The traders I do come across in grey, casually fly by with no fear at all. New players at first are intimidated to float out to grey due to the warnings about Corvus, but quickly realize there is nothing to worry about.

At the time being, nationalists seem to control grey space due to the state of Deneb.. but that is another story. Anyhow, after talking with LNH about the state of grey space, one idea popped into my head. This idea I thought was already implemented, as it seems to be common sense, but I was told otherwise.

Would it be possible to create fixed trade routes/missions into grey space, where if accomplished, the trader would receive a large amount of credits for completing. The sum of credits would have to greatly exceed the profits made in nation space, to give motivation for completing these high-risk missions. The profit would have to be in the millions, much more than textiles, or the others offer.

If something like this was to be implemented, I believe that traders would have more incentive to leave nation space. This would cause many pirates to come back, causing many VPR's and mercenaries to come back as well. This would eventually increase player population and enjoyment out of VO. I've been told that there used to be "luxury trade routes" in the past, and I'm not sure if this is the same or not.

This is a simple suggestion coming from a nationalist concerned about other forms of role-play.

-Merry Christmas, Ritter

+1

Merry Christmas!

+ a lot

And nobody need bother mentioning the so-called "enhanced" grey space routes. They're very nice, but nowhere near nice enough...

Ricker

I think that instead of increasing profits in grey, lower profits in nation space. That way it'll be more difficult for people to make hundreds of millions of credits, and may help with the vastly underpriced equipment out there. At the same time, it gives more incentive to trade in grey.

+1 either way, but imo the last thing we need is more money when our equipment is priced so low.

I like this idea, and I have already asked improvements in convoys in this way. I think that the Convoys crossing grayspace should be realy reinforced and larger, when compared to nation space's ones. Surely, a big voy into gray should pay some 10x or 20x more than a regular nation-bound.

Integrating that with OP, and Tarenty's idea, and evolving:

1) Reorganize production, so we have many items that are only produced in grayspace but demanded in nation space, and many others that are produced only in nations but desired in gray. Example, 'Civilian Textiles' should be produced only by nations, thus highly requested in grayspace, what justifies a trade lane.

2) Make nations explore trade with grayspace, hauling unique items from one side into another. This should be offered as missions within Trade Guild and Convoy missions with big convoys to go there, load and return, and the station's welcome screen for free traders. Three indications.

3) Make convoys inside nation pay MUCH lower than ones crossing gray. Make many voys (nations<=>grayspace) with higher pay. Relate to (1,2) for content.

***Note on war'voy/blockade: They should NOT interrupt trading lanes (mission offerings). But it should try to disrupt traffic. ***

4) Reorganize convoys. Small ones inside nations. BIG ones crossing nation/gray. Medium ones inside gray only. Convoy missions should report convoy size, destination, cargo and base payment (if convoy is not attacked).
4.1) Create also Round-Trip Voys, departing from A, take cargo X to station B, then cargo Y to station C, then taking cargo Z back to station A. These ones should pay more, and point out the most profitable routes.

>> Or, basic above concept from another PoV:
The nations and factions should explore trade. The most profitable lanes/products should be explored by big convoys, with corresponding escort missions. Each faction/nation should have [2...6] "lanes", related to its size. The lane are defined dinamically by market.
There is a fixed demand, but a floating offer of a few basic items, like 3 items that are highly demanded but not produced in grayspace/nation. So every day the convoys change destination and cargo responding to market variations. Each faction will raise/lower prices independent.

As much as it hurts...

+1 to Nahins idea. Lowering Nation prices and profits should beef up Gray traffic (though it wouldn't hurt to make specialty items pay huge in Gray.).

As much as it kills me...

+1 to Alloh's points 1,2,3,4 and 4.1.

As much as it hurts...

As much as it kills me...

I lol'd.

+1 to Alloh's ideas, especially round trip voys and redistribution of cargo sources.

First of all, there are dedicated routes from Odia to the capitals in Itani & Serco space for porn and lingerie. Unfortunately, the dumb ass devs failed to create return routes that are reasonably profitable. They have also made some other modifications so that goods from nation space tank a bit more slowly but that is of negligible value from my experience.

One of the key problems with trade in Grey, particularly on the Itani side, is the severe lack of station diversity. I've been over this repeatedly. Just look at the god damned map if you doubt me.

The next problem is that there really aren't that many people fucking trading at any given time. That's the reality. I'll grant there's been an increase since the last time I subbed, but I'm attributing that to the crafting at the conq stations. This is to the point that a recent post was bemoaning 'traders' safely traversing Grey in greyhounds. Let me tell you Mr or Ms Pirate, you'd better catch that hound cause they've got chocolates!

Most players who are actively 'trading' are in my experience working up standing. So you want to get more trade happening in Grey? Make the premium proc runs pick up items only produced in Grey space. Problem fucking solved.

Next, we need a fucking redistribution of goods. Not every god damned military station in Serco should have Combat Syms. Rare or high manufacture items should be sparingly available. The demand / drop curve (and max profit) should reflect the distance between the nearest source and the sell station

I fully disagree with reducing profit levels in nation space, however, as part of the above mentioned redistribution, same system stations should have very low profits for trade between them regardless of station type.

Next, optimize trader routes between Grey and nation space so that they are actually noticeable. The changes made to date have been about as useless as my attitude towards VO.

Now I'm sure Alloh said some interesting things, but I just skimmed his post. tl;dr and so forth, however, I would point out that as to # 3 this already exists in Serco & Itani space. UIT seems to have been exempted from that nerf possibly because of the multiple factions or because UIT is still so fucking easy to pirate.

#4 no, because voys should be tied to station demand that has not been satisfied by pc's in order to keep the economy of the stations humming along. Yeah, I know this one is absolutely hillarious. A balanced/dynamic economy in VO??? I am just too god damned funny.

Edit: Oh, and for the love of fucking, limit the availability of purchasable items and show a price increase as that availability goes down.

Edit2: I'm really not getting this. I thought everyone was excited about and getting into the conquerable stations and crafting? Are you saying that even this is dead? I find that hard to believe given some of the posts I've read in the recent past. Perhaps the presumption of what Grey 'should' be like is in error. Yes, it should be a bad lands of sorts. Realistically, I can't imagine it being a major commercial zone when compared with the presumed stability of nation space. I think there needs to be a stronger motivation for people to transport goods to and from Grey than just better profits. Station crafting for the upcoming- say around March or April-ish player owned cap ships I'm sure is going to be a huge part of this. However, I will just close this argument by asking why else would many US businesses be bailing out of operating in Russia or who wants to invest in a Venezuelan business atm? If the goal is to move every one out of nation space, just eliminate those systems. Expecting non stop trade in Grey is just silly no matter what artificial constraints you apply.

Edit3: To the premise of the OP, create a pirate alt and spice things up! The reality is that the player base fluctuates vastly throughout the year and years. I created a pirate alt years ago when there were virtually no active pirates around. Then guilds like CLM and SYN had something of a rebirth and subsided. SCAR tried to spice things up and ended up imploding leading to a very active Serco guild at the time ONE which as far as I can tell is dead or dying now. ITAN has fluctuated, recently being far more active than I've ever seen them be only to be 'on vacation' for the holidays or so I'm told. The point is, people come and go, guilds rise and fall. Until VO can do better than 30-40 active players at any given time (I have no reason to believe this has improved), your really going to notice the vacuum when someone is gone.

Has to agree with Fluffy on this one. +1

yeah.

Fluffster, I like your style!

Edit: Oh, and for the love of fucking, limit the availability of purchasable items and show a price increase as that availability goes down.

Did you miss a word? :)

Oh, look. A pony

failed to create return routes that are reasonably profitable.

+1

Make the premium proc runs pick up items only produced in Grey space.

+1

Next, we need a fucking redistribution of goods. Not every god damned military station in Serco should have Combat Syms

Next, optimize trader routes between Grey and nation space so that they are actually noticeable

+1

Oh, and for the love of fucking, limit the availability of purchasable items and show a price increase as that availability goes down.

I thought everyone was excited about and getting into the conquerable stations and crafting? Are you saying that even this is dead?

It's not RP wise for my rats chars to conquer stations, that's because I abandoned that "business". But ye, I'd love pirate base deep in space, at least for free repairs and maybe even that station should buy all commodities but for low price (so no speculating). That station will probably be interesting for my business.

Crafting? I don't need that items for cappies and weapons for turrets. I am not Captain Morgan.
I'd prefer there'll be mission for warthog mk2 or even centurion mk1 crafting and some neuts/blaster/gauss crafting. For my RP it'll be ok to craft free of charge vessel or weapons for future outlaw actions..

"I thought everyone was excited about and getting into the conquerable stations and crafting? Are you saying that even this is dead?"

They were, then they realized that the missions were tied into getting cappies and that for the missions/access to cappies was most feasible for large guilds (50 plus) or people that had no life outside of VO, the interest waned.

I sense much frustration, take a chill pill and read the following:

http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/3/21125

In a nutshell, they already know, and it's happening... gradually.

For what it's worth I do most of my trading in Nyrius, feel free to come hunt me there.

"Grayspace has become a bit more dangerous"

I must have missed something, as Gray space has never, ever... been safer. Safe enough to fly unarmed cargo ships through.

"For what it's worth I do most of my trading in Nyrius, feel free to come hunt me there."

That's exactly what I was trying to get at removing. Systems should be considered a small, localized economy where trade between stations of varying types yields minimal profit. Also, there need to be more specializing at stations so that items at a Barracks in Initros sell reasonably well at a Barracks in Odia because they don't produce the exact same items. Some items should also be system specific, much like porn & lingerie are in Odia. As I said, don't tank routes in nation space, but DO tank them to near zero for same system.

Also, I don't recall my cousin ever seeing you in Nyrius ;)

As to the frustration, its more I'm out to see just how much abuse and hostility I have to dispense before I get banned.

@Azumi - No, I believe I used all of them :P

That's exactly what I was trying to get at removing. Systems should be considered a small, localized economy where trade between stations of varying types yields minimal profit. Also, there need to be more specializing at stations so that items at a Barracks in Initros sell reasonably well at a Barracks in Odia because they don't produce the exact same items.

+1, but this needs whole economy system to be rebuilt.

On the other hand there's easy solution to ceize profits in one system: implement penalty for single system trade.

say, give only 50% expierence for single system trade and 50% of profit.

Remove what, the behavior or the profitability? I think you may be overestimating how profitable an intrasystem trade in national space may be... with the right knowledge, equipment, and conditions I get only around 100,000 credits per trade in Nyrius. A trade between deep gray and nation space would yield 5-10x that amount with the right knowledge and equipment (by the way there is no p0rn/lingerie i.g., guess that's a creative take on Corvus Holo Disks and Textiles). Also, the market in Nyrius tanks very quickly... after about an hour in an XC the returns don't warrant further trading.

Now then, the behavior. Why trade in Nyrius at all when I could be getting massive returns from trips out of greyspace? It's safer, and it's fun. If I was a serious trader I probably would be making trips to and from greyspace in an XC, under escort. As a VPR one of my primary duties is to escort traders on just such dangerous legs. However, the path I've chosen is not that of a trader but an anti-pirate, so if I do a little trading on the side I prefer it to be within a small, localized economy exactly as you describe.

If you want to go after those small time traders, you'll have to venture in to nation space. The fact that greyspace isn't flocked with players in XCs just shows that grey really is more dangerous. You give the example of a trader (I would say courier) in a Hound running Sedina chocolates out of grey. What did you expect, a Behemoth?

As others have pointed out, this may change with the new crafting taking place at the conquerable stations (interesting that one of the materials for these missions only fits inside of an XC)... until that time I'll sit back and wait, leaving the large Nation-Deep grey trades to high risk venture capitalists.

Gray space has never, ever... been safer. Safe enough to fly unarmed cargo ships through.

In my experience, greyspace is a gamble. Sometimes you get lucky, sometimes you don't. If one trader makes it safely through grey in an XC don't forget about the one who gets caught.

Some items should also be system specific...

Did you forget about Divinia Spices, Dau Wine, Deneb Rum, Meditation Crystals, Pelatus Spices, Betheshee Spices, etc. etc.?

For some reason Firefox closed on me during the final comments in my response, so since I am now somewhat irritable, my response will be more abbreviated, but hopefully still polite.

1) Your first paragraph is what has been argued against in multiple threads for a while. The ability to trade without risk or minimal risk.

2) As to your 'premium' routes, I can make as much or better trading in the same manner you describe moving to from system to system, in the same amount of time.

3) My comment about the hound was intended as sarcasm towards an attitude I saw in another thread recently where the poster was bemoaning that traders fly hounds unmolested through grey. Personally I use a hog 2. Not really all that much difference except in availability and cost imo.

4) I was thinking less of the unique items and more that station types should not all produce every item that they now sell. This would allow for same system profits to be adjusted down.

5) To emphasize an earlier point that active traders are not that prevalent, when I do log in to trade I very rarely find the best trade items tanked same or near system. So, unless the dev's seriously increased the recovery rate, which I doubt, not much real trade is happening.

6) You are correct about the holo and textiles. I call them what they were intended to be, but that the dev's didn't have the balls to name them.

Well as one of the few who have no life I haul a lot of goods through grey space. Because of the time I spend there I have in fact paid off most of the rats and simply try to avoid the griefers. I still routinely explode while carrying low value cargo. That is simply how it is.

Once again - ruining the trading in Nationspace will NOT attract traders to grey. I have said this several times in the past and grey space in now emptier then ever. Let me repeat it once more.

RUINING TRADE IN NATION SPACE WILL NOT ATTRACT TRADERS TO GREY SPACE.

If you want there to be actual trading going on then the traders must be an integral part of the system.
This means traders need to supply the weapons and every other good that exists in greyspace.
Every item in VO needs to be made somewhere and transported to every other place including ships.

In reality it aint gonna happen so the rest is just a pointless discussion.

Every item in VO needs to be made somewhere and transported to every other place including ships.

This should be the long term objective.

As starting steps, change production to make more unique items, many things only produced by one faction, but required by others. All sort of goods, including weapons.

Then create a demand for them. Make every mining station request Orion Drills, capitals want Holodisks and Textiles, and the longer it has been without receiving it, the higher the price. And grayspace stations request things only found in nation space, and pay really good for it.

That would give a real meaning for stations' welcome screen, when the list of "desired" items only lists those NOT produced in its nation.