Forums » Suggestions
I seem to recall suggesting this years ago the last time I played...
The problem with guardians isn't so much that they're OP, as it is that they're incredibly frustrating to fight, especially considering that they show up in adv combat practice at level 2, long before assaults. I've tended to refer to Adv Combat Practice as the mission where newbies learn to fight to collectors, and to avoid guardians. It's because despite all the super heavy armor and large size, the guardians have elite ninja dodging skills, that force players to get within the serious pain range of the guardians' powerful short-range weaponry to even have a chance of scoring a hit.
Reduce lateral thrust of the guardians so they cant dodge as well.. that's all I'm asking.
The problem with guardians isn't so much that they're OP, as it is that they're incredibly frustrating to fight, especially considering that they show up in adv combat practice at level 2, long before assaults. I've tended to refer to Adv Combat Practice as the mission where newbies learn to fight to collectors, and to avoid guardians. It's because despite all the super heavy armor and large size, the guardians have elite ninja dodging skills, that force players to get within the serious pain range of the guardians' powerful short-range weaponry to even have a chance of scoring a hit.
Reduce lateral thrust of the guardians so they cant dodge as well.. that's all I'm asking.
Hmm.. -1.
try different weapon/ship configuration and avoid sectors with guardians until you'll become more expierenced.
At lvl2 there's no need to fight guardians: look for orun/artemis/dentek sector and shoot them all and at 3 combat 3 light you'll be able to equip neutr and grab brand new vulture, which allows you to shoot anything in the verse.
What about 2nd combat, purchase hog mk2, equip it with plasma devastator and phase buster mk2 or even use only plase devastator/eliminator. You'll find out that guardians can't dodge these big yellow balls without being hit.
try different weapon/ship configuration and avoid sectors with guardians until you'll become more expierenced.
At lvl2 there's no need to fight guardians: look for orun/artemis/dentek sector and shoot them all and at 3 combat 3 light you'll be able to equip neutr and grab brand new vulture, which allows you to shoot anything in the verse.
What about 2nd combat, purchase hog mk2, equip it with plasma devastator and phase buster mk2 or even use only plase devastator/eliminator. You'll find out that guardians can't dodge these big yellow balls without being hit.
+1 because guardians have more firepower, armor than assault and they give much less exp.
They are guardians, so they need to be "tough guys", not just flying sausage.
But I totally agree that they give much less exp, than they worth :(
But I totally agree that they give much less exp, than they worth :(
They are meant to be hard, the only thing that needs adjustment is the xp/payout as they are mini gun boats and not really fighters
This game isnt meant to be easy, try again.
This game isnt meant to be easy, try again.
Guardians are suckers for high-velocity energy weapons. Snipe one or two shots at a time and they don't react as much as a full string, also. Same with assaults.
-1 to nerfing bots.
+1 to increase guardians' reward. They move slow, but bite hard and have tons of armour. They should be harder than assaults as they are, but should reward much better to be fair.
It only requires a Revenant with 2.Gauss + Plasma and proper dodging against any bot without shields. Set F/A off, hold fire, wait it approach, hit twice. Rinse and repeat.
+1 to increase guardians' reward. They move slow, but bite hard and have tons of armour. They should be harder than assaults as they are, but should reward much better to be fair.
It only requires a Revenant with 2.Gauss + Plasma and proper dodging against any bot without shields. Set F/A off, hold fire, wait it approach, hit twice. Rinse and repeat.
Well my point was, the guardians need either A) to dodge less, or b) to pay out more when you kill them. As it stands, assaults are far less difficult to kill, having less armor, and much less dangerous weaponry up close. With guardians, you can't close in for the kill unless you're already an experienced player in a fast ship, or have high velocity weapons or lots of ordnance to take them out from a distance, because they just dodge energy weapons... so why are they rated "lower" on the bot difficulty scale than assaults? it doesn't make sense. In the adv combat missions, newbs are asked to tackle guardians first, at the lower levels, and not assaults until much later, and the guardians give substantially less XP, while generally making a mess of your ship, so you spend more on costly repairs. To more seasoned players, this isn't a problem, but think of the newbs.
I guess the reason I suggested nerfing the ninja dodging powers rather than beefing the XP, is because I think it just makes more sense. Guardians are supposed to be this big, heavily armored, lumbering defense platforms... they have a ton of mass, and a ton of weaponry, and yet they can change direction way faster than should be possible. We already have assault bots, which are supposed to be small and agile, and those ones teach good close-combat skills, so I think the guardians could fit well as the opposite... make them maybe even more heavily armored, but slower, to teach good standoff skills. If you make them easier to kill that way, you don't need to increase their XP, or change the way the combat missions are done.
Of course stronghold bots should remain faster and tougher, but I'm mostly talking about the aputechs and such that newbs are supposed tio be botting at low levels.
Maybe just differentiate more between guardians... lowering the agility of them on the low end ones, while raising the XP on the high end ones, for more diversity.
I guess the reason I suggested nerfing the ninja dodging powers rather than beefing the XP, is because I think it just makes more sense. Guardians are supposed to be this big, heavily armored, lumbering defense platforms... they have a ton of mass, and a ton of weaponry, and yet they can change direction way faster than should be possible. We already have assault bots, which are supposed to be small and agile, and those ones teach good close-combat skills, so I think the guardians could fit well as the opposite... make them maybe even more heavily armored, but slower, to teach good standoff skills. If you make them easier to kill that way, you don't need to increase their XP, or change the way the combat missions are done.
Of course stronghold bots should remain faster and tougher, but I'm mostly talking about the aputechs and such that newbs are supposed tio be botting at low levels.
Maybe just differentiate more between guardians... lowering the agility of them on the low end ones, while raising the XP on the high end ones, for more diversity.
Wasn't the reward for guardians buffed this year already?
Dont do advanced combat till combat 3, stick to beginner. Problem solved.
Never do advanced combat practice. Go to one of the core dynamic hives and do Hive Skirmishes. Also, do Rogue Drones missions combat <3 to get combat and light weapon xp.
The XP for guardians was increased earlier this year, but it only applied to some of them while most were unaffected.
As far as I know, there has been no official confirmation from the devs that it was intentional to only increase the XP of some but not all guardians.
See this thread, for example:
Increased XP for Guardian and Overseer kills
http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/2/23124
As far as I know, there has been no official confirmation from the devs that it was intentional to only increase the XP of some but not all guardians.
See this thread, for example:
Increased XP for Guardian and Overseer kills
http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/2/23124
I do agree the should not be very good at dodging - so triple the armor and nerf their strafing....
+1 to XP increase, again.
the aputechs are not too bad, but 100 xp for an apu-5 is too little. In situation when once would engage multiple bots at the same time, these damn sneaky guardians are very irritating.
the aputechs are not too bad, but 100 xp for an apu-5 is too little. In situation when once would engage multiple bots at the same time, these damn sneaky guardians are very irritating.
My proposal would be to leave the stats and xp alone if it's too controversial or too much effort, and instead focus on fixing the mission. Advanced Combat Practice should start by focusing on each assault bot in turn, then finally mention guardians only after many, many kills. In other words, update it to reflect what most patient players figure out by trial and error anyway. Or, leave Advanced as it is and create a new assault-focused Intermediate Combat Practice.
The combat practice missions should start new players off on the right foot regarding expectations of bot difficulty. The problem is that new players (the target audience of these missions), having just finished the detailed tutorial, implicitly trust missions for guidance about what to do next; we don't have the seasoned player's knowledge to "never do advanced combat practice". The most natural thing in the galaxy is to fire up Advanced Combat Practice, find some of the 4 kinds of guardians it specifies out of 6 bots total, and get blown to bits over and over till you give up. Frankly, the Aputech 5 had me doing lots of trade missions and reconsidering my decision to subscribe, until vo-wiki clued me in that "Most players simply avoid Guardian drones" (!!), and now I'm happily battling TyCorps. Best tip I've seen yet.
At the very least, any mention of a guardian drone in the combat practice mission text should be preceded by something like, "For an extra tough challenge, try..." It should be much clearer that you should start with Artemises, then TyCorps, and so on.
The combat practice missions should start new players off on the right foot regarding expectations of bot difficulty. The problem is that new players (the target audience of these missions), having just finished the detailed tutorial, implicitly trust missions for guidance about what to do next; we don't have the seasoned player's knowledge to "never do advanced combat practice". The most natural thing in the galaxy is to fire up Advanced Combat Practice, find some of the 4 kinds of guardians it specifies out of 6 bots total, and get blown to bits over and over till you give up. Frankly, the Aputech 5 had me doing lots of trade missions and reconsidering my decision to subscribe, until vo-wiki clued me in that "Most players simply avoid Guardian drones" (!!), and now I'm happily battling TyCorps. Best tip I've seen yet.
At the very least, any mention of a guardian drone in the combat practice mission text should be preceded by something like, "For an extra tough challenge, try..." It should be much clearer that you should start with Artemises, then TyCorps, and so on.
One of the problems with having an undocumented rule (e.g. "Don't do advanced combat missions til 3") is that it's undocumented! If Guardians are too much to expect a level 2 new player to take on (they are) then why offer the mission?
Most people coming into this game (and any new MMO) are coming from other MMOs now. These new players have come to expect certain paradigms over years of playing these games. These paradigms have been consistent for the most part contributing to the player base's expectations from new games just now coming out (I know VO isn't that new). When these paradigms are seemingly betrayed it can frustrate the less tenacious customers.
Now, you all may be very proud of yourselves for being the small group of customers tenacious and forgiving enough to have given VO a second (or third, or fourth chance). And Kudos to you all. But have any studies been done asking the question "Why have you decided to stop playing VO?" If so, were things like guardians ever mentioned?
I'm speaking here from being a long time player of MMOs (since 1998). The very first thing I noticed about VO that set me off was that the enemy AIs were not well balanced (ApuTech-5 case in point). This is just a first impression, but first impressions have been known to make or break games.
Do the kind folks at Guardian wish to appeal to a wider audience? Then I would recommend a kinder, gentler Newb Experience. I encountered Guardians after only playing the game for 2 hours. In my opinion, that's still part of the Newb Experience.
Bottom line, I personally don't feel that guardians contribute in a meaningful way to this Newb Experience.
If however, both Guardian and its player base prefer to enjoy a small, quiet community of close-knit brothers in arms, and underground cult hit as it were, then you could probably leave it alone for now.
Some questions I have for the devs is this: What *did* you originally intend the guardians to be for? What sort of new player experience had you envisioned? Do you think you have accomplished that? Since most players simply avoid them, why keep them?
Here's some questions I have for the more seasoned players: after leveling up considerably, do you still go after low-level guardians? Why or why not? Do you even bother trying to kill and loot collectors et al being guarded by guardians? How do you manage it? What level is recommended for this? Do the ship/gear requirements for such efforts outweigh the benefits?
Most people coming into this game (and any new MMO) are coming from other MMOs now. These new players have come to expect certain paradigms over years of playing these games. These paradigms have been consistent for the most part contributing to the player base's expectations from new games just now coming out (I know VO isn't that new). When these paradigms are seemingly betrayed it can frustrate the less tenacious customers.
Now, you all may be very proud of yourselves for being the small group of customers tenacious and forgiving enough to have given VO a second (or third, or fourth chance). And Kudos to you all. But have any studies been done asking the question "Why have you decided to stop playing VO?" If so, were things like guardians ever mentioned?
I'm speaking here from being a long time player of MMOs (since 1998). The very first thing I noticed about VO that set me off was that the enemy AIs were not well balanced (ApuTech-5 case in point). This is just a first impression, but first impressions have been known to make or break games.
Do the kind folks at Guardian wish to appeal to a wider audience? Then I would recommend a kinder, gentler Newb Experience. I encountered Guardians after only playing the game for 2 hours. In my opinion, that's still part of the Newb Experience.
Bottom line, I personally don't feel that guardians contribute in a meaningful way to this Newb Experience.
If however, both Guardian and its player base prefer to enjoy a small, quiet community of close-knit brothers in arms, and underground cult hit as it were, then you could probably leave it alone for now.
Some questions I have for the devs is this: What *did* you originally intend the guardians to be for? What sort of new player experience had you envisioned? Do you think you have accomplished that? Since most players simply avoid them, why keep them?
Here's some questions I have for the more seasoned players: after leveling up considerably, do you still go after low-level guardians? Why or why not? Do you even bother trying to kill and loot collectors et al being guarded by guardians? How do you manage it? What level is recommended for this? Do the ship/gear requirements for such efforts outweigh the benefits?
VO is based on the skill of the player. A skilled player in a free bus can kill them at 1/1/1/0/0. Technique and practice matter most.
This is the kinder gentler Newb experiance. There were no sandbox sectors when I started and very few tutorials.
PS: if ya like the APU guardians try out the Orun and Devus ones...:}
This is the kinder gentler Newb experiance. There were no sandbox sectors when I started and very few tutorials.
PS: if ya like the APU guardians try out the Orun and Devus ones...:}
I kill bots (any kind that are close by) if I find myself terribly bored. I don't usually bother with the drops as I generally have massive stockpiles of the things they drop.
Here is a quick and easy WORKAROUND for this:
Add a few lines of text to mission, stressing that this is much more dangerous than previous ones, and advicing "new pilots" to avoid it until feel comfortable against larger bots, also suggesting to ask for help from veterans if in trouble, and a confirmation step, like "are you sure you wanna try?".
And add that cancelling this mission have no penalties.
All done, the simple way, no need to nerf anything
Add a few lines of text to mission, stressing that this is much more dangerous than previous ones, and advicing "new pilots" to avoid it until feel comfortable against larger bots, also suggesting to ask for help from veterans if in trouble, and a confirmation step, like "are you sure you wanna try?".
And add that cancelling this mission have no penalties.
All done, the simple way, no need to nerf anything
To hell with paradigms. Paradigms are what make most other mmos out there thinly veiled wow clones and the absence of which makes vo awesome. I think one of the reasons vo is around today is that it hasn't tried to fit into the mold of 'grind this mob, now move over here, now grind this one'. Rather, if you have the skill to take on a guardian, you have that option from the very beginning. There are many steps to becoming an excellent vo player, and some of them are quite large. Successfully defeating a guardian is something that cannot be measured by a progress or xp bar, rather it takes that satori moment of awareness, when you can virtually see the lines of code guiding the guardian's behavior being acted out before your very eyes, and the solution presents itself. Then you will be space samurai.
You see, I never had to give vo a second chance. It had me from the very beginning. License levels are little more than a formality, all that really matters is the player's experience.
To kill a guardian you must be quick, you must be aware of the space around you at all times.
You see, I never had to give vo a second chance. It had me from the very beginning. License levels are little more than a formality, all that really matters is the player's experience.
To kill a guardian you must be quick, you must be aware of the space around you at all times.