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+1 ShankTank, agree with your point of view.
Great, I finally find a plugin - customhud - that allows me to reposition the distance to target information above the crosshairs so I can keep track of this important information as I learn to fly and fight.. and now you veterans want to remove it. Well I guess you guys need easy targets so you're afraid of either people learning important stuff like distance control this way or people using automated plugins to fight --- who will never rise above mediocrity if they rely upon the automation. Oh but we must keep it easy for Dr Lecter et al to kill newbies and discourage new players from the game.. I see.
omnivore61, -10011001.
First of all, learn to fly and fight without ANY plugins at ALL, even without customhud.
Otherwise you will never learn to fight and will be easy target forever.
First of all, learn to fly and fight without ANY plugins at ALL, even without customhud.
Otherwise you will never learn to fight and will be easy target forever.
And you know this how, pirren? Crystal ball? Logic fail.
[edit] Speaking of logic, if automated combat aids are so evil in this game, why do we have auto aim and flight assist modes? Shouldn't they be removed too? Oh, and they should remove seeker missiles, I mean you don't aim them... and gatling turrets.. and..
As to learn to fly... many try and give up, leaving the game with a small player base. A player base that might just become larger if it were easier to fly and fight a bit more effectively. If that is what this combat assist plugin does for some people, then *GREAT* this game needs more players.
Most of the arguments I see against this plugin and this type of added feature in this thread are being made by players who are griefers plain and simple. They are against anything that makes it harder for them to kill other players.
[edit] Speaking of logic, if automated combat aids are so evil in this game, why do we have auto aim and flight assist modes? Shouldn't they be removed too? Oh, and they should remove seeker missiles, I mean you don't aim them... and gatling turrets.. and..
As to learn to fly... many try and give up, leaving the game with a small player base. A player base that might just become larger if it were easier to fly and fight a bit more effectively. If that is what this combat assist plugin does for some people, then *GREAT* this game needs more players.
Most of the arguments I see against this plugin and this type of added feature in this thread are being made by players who are griefers plain and simple. They are against anything that makes it harder for them to kill other players.
I think they object to the fact that it flies for you, to some extent, not the distance-number use case you describe. And, perhaps, that it negates some degree of their hard-won skill. And, that people may accuse them of using it, when they don't actually need it. Many of them may enjoy their common skill advantage over others, but I think they would actually prefer if there were more skilled players out there. They just want the skills to be from the opposing player, not their computer.
Anyway, I'm fine with continued discussion of whether or not this issue is really "exploitative" or not, and how serious it may be; but let's dial down the melodrama, and not castigate anyone opposing it as some sort of "griefer".
Anyway, I'm fine with continued discussion of whether or not this issue is really "exploitative" or not, and how serious it may be; but let's dial down the melodrama, and not castigate anyone opposing it as some sort of "griefer".
First of all, the plugin sucks. If someone wins a fight with it then it's probably not because the plugin helped them. I've never tried it nor do I see any purpose in doing so. Next, I haven't seen an option to fix the problem yet. At least not one that wouldn't really mess things up. I wouldn't mess with the distance or time at all because that could cause some serious problems...maybe even with the AI(depending on how it navigates). The only possible way would be to have the client checking for scripts using said distance control parameters and not load them. The problem isn't with knowing how far away someone is and at what given time...its with the plugin taking that info and moving your ship with it. So...take away the plugins ability to move the ship and you solve the problem. Although then we will need to work on how to nerf alias ship control as well. Neither should be able to control your ship.
And you know this how, pirren? Crystal ball? Logic fail.
This maid will serve my turn, sir.
They are against anything that makes it harder for them to kill other players.
Wrong. Did you hear the proclamation?
This maid will serve my turn, sir.
They are against anything that makes it harder for them to kill other players.
Wrong. Did you hear the proclamation?
This has nothing at all to do with AI.
The solutions proposed so far are purely client side, and only impact the data that is exported to the lua sandbox. Ie, that which is accessible to the plugins. We can have it only update based on 100m increments, and all it will affect is the given client, and the information the plugins can use. There is no need to "check for scripts". This isn't punkbuster, this is our own API. We're choosing to expose the information to plugin developers.
The solutions proposed so far are purely client side, and only impact the data that is exported to the lua sandbox. Ie, that which is accessible to the plugins. We can have it only update based on 100m increments, and all it will affect is the given client, and the information the plugins can use. There is no need to "check for scripts". This isn't punkbuster, this is our own API. We're choosing to expose the information to plugin developers.
Again. Dial down the melodrama. Stay on point. The discussion here is the plugin, and ramifications thereof.
OK...cool. I wasn't aware of that Inc. I thought they were talking about something else. Thanks for the heads up. As long as it doesn't have any effect on anything else besides just these types of scripts I'm all for it! :-)
Well if the devs are stating this as a problem then ok. As for solution, what about approaching it from the other side? Leave the distance information in as it is now, but remove the ability to drive the flight controls from lua.
As it stands now, the next thread in this category might well be about auto-dodge plugins that are much improved lua implementations of the old diamond-dodge bind. I tested a preliminary version of such a plugin yesterday evening and against energy fire it proved extremely effective.
Modify the lua interface to disallow the following (and similar) lines:
gkinterface.GKProcessCommand("Accel +1000") -- from combat ass't
gkinterface.GKProcessCommand('+StrafeLeft 0') -- from auto dodge
Problem solved, and I can still be happy with an accurate distance display in my hud where I can see it.
PS: I apologize for the melodramatic phrasing earlier, some long time players in this community just rub me the wrong way.
As it stands now, the next thread in this category might well be about auto-dodge plugins that are much improved lua implementations of the old diamond-dodge bind. I tested a preliminary version of such a plugin yesterday evening and against energy fire it proved extremely effective.
Modify the lua interface to disallow the following (and similar) lines:
gkinterface.GKProcessCommand("Accel +1000") -- from combat ass't
gkinterface.GKProcessCommand('+StrafeLeft 0') -- from auto dodge
Problem solved, and I can still be happy with an accurate distance display in my hud where I can see it.
PS: I apologize for the melodramatic phrasing earlier, some long time players in this community just rub me the wrong way.
Now it sounds very constructive, omnivore61.
Quot from plugin's readme:
In plain English, it prevents you from having to hold down the forward and reverse keys by allowing you to just tap either, (or the break) to control your ship's acceleration.
Btw, I think this is unacceptable too.
[EDIT]Maybe let's change all players to programmed bots? Player pilot is player, not auto-piloted bot, especially in combat.
Quot from plugin's readme:
In plain English, it prevents you from having to hold down the forward and reverse keys by allowing you to just tap either, (or the break) to control your ship's acceleration.
Btw, I think this is unacceptable too.
[EDIT]Maybe let's change all players to programmed bots? Player pilot is player, not auto-piloted bot, especially in combat.
Interesting thread.
For me the appeal of VO is that the player actually flies their own ship. To my mind any plugin that takes any flight or fire controls from a player and hands it over to their computer is contrary to the ethos of the game.
When plugins were introduced I envisaged that they would only be used to store or display information in game which could already be recorded manually by other means, or to provide GUI enhancements providing local data and replacing / commands.
I am not a lua expert, I had no real idea that it was now being used to take control of a players ship. The mechanism by which lua ship control is prevented for both pvp and pve is for the devs, but I would support any method they choose even if some plugins lose functionality.
For me the appeal of VO is that the player actually flies their own ship. To my mind any plugin that takes any flight or fire controls from a player and hands it over to their computer is contrary to the ethos of the game.
When plugins were introduced I envisaged that they would only be used to store or display information in game which could already be recorded manually by other means, or to provide GUI enhancements providing local data and replacing / commands.
I am not a lua expert, I had no real idea that it was now being used to take control of a players ship. The mechanism by which lua ship control is prevented for both pvp and pve is for the devs, but I would support any method they choose even if some plugins lose functionality.
Haven't tried it but I'm pretty sure you can do that part (tap forward, reverse, or brake to control ship acceleration) entirely from within the old .cfg file using aliases and binds.
The old config file alias/bind system (which is still usable) allows you to do quite a bit of automation, albiet in a convoluted format. The major difference between that and the lua plugins being discussed is that the old binds require human input to initiate a series of actions, while the plugins can initiate a series of actions on an event without requiring any human intervention. Still, you could easily make a better dodge helper than the diamond dodge bind by making it *less* automated. Take out the timer and let the user press a key to initiate pattern stepping.
Just to play devil's advocate for a moment though.. if someone is determined enough to automate the play of *any* game, it can be done. Even if both the old alias bind system and the lua plugin system were completely removed from the game, at some point someone will just drive it externally. While not a trivial task, you could examine the graphic output for certain features periodically and insert appropriate control codes into the input channels. Of course, few would do it that way, most would just reverse engineer enough of the client and/or the packet data to achieve similar ends. This has happened to practically every multiplayer game out there that has achieved any sort of widespread popularity. In the end, there is no solution if you define the problem as 'preventing automation'.
I think the developers of VO were brilliant in their addition of auto-aim and flight assist as in game options, in one fell swoop they disarmed any potential hackers from a very common initial point of entry. I still believe they should follow exactly the same path in regards to the plugins, let them exist, heck, go a step further and encourage them to be polished up and made easily available to all players. The top ten percent of pvp veterans will still remain the same since they'll only use truely useful plugins and make better use of what they have than anyone else.
The old config file alias/bind system (which is still usable) allows you to do quite a bit of automation, albiet in a convoluted format. The major difference between that and the lua plugins being discussed is that the old binds require human input to initiate a series of actions, while the plugins can initiate a series of actions on an event without requiring any human intervention. Still, you could easily make a better dodge helper than the diamond dodge bind by making it *less* automated. Take out the timer and let the user press a key to initiate pattern stepping.
Just to play devil's advocate for a moment though.. if someone is determined enough to automate the play of *any* game, it can be done. Even if both the old alias bind system and the lua plugin system were completely removed from the game, at some point someone will just drive it externally. While not a trivial task, you could examine the graphic output for certain features periodically and insert appropriate control codes into the input channels. Of course, few would do it that way, most would just reverse engineer enough of the client and/or the packet data to achieve similar ends. This has happened to practically every multiplayer game out there that has achieved any sort of widespread popularity. In the end, there is no solution if you define the problem as 'preventing automation'.
I think the developers of VO were brilliant in their addition of auto-aim and flight assist as in game options, in one fell swoop they disarmed any potential hackers from a very common initial point of entry. I still believe they should follow exactly the same path in regards to the plugins, let them exist, heck, go a step further and encourage them to be polished up and made easily available to all players. The top ten percent of pvp veterans will still remain the same since they'll only use truely useful plugins and make better use of what they have than anyone else.
omnivore61 this isn't about the top percent of vo players and whether they use it or not. like Kierky pointed out it's for the majority of players that this is actually effective against. To be completely fair if I was a new player I would be pretty turned off to find out that people were already negating the twitch aspect of the game for automated plugins.
Also to all the people saying "oh this doesn't really help etc etc" I would say go out with a friend have a bunch of fights with them using combat assist in some of them with out telling you. I don't want to take away from any of the skills that Ritter has gained but when we were testing it out yes there was some advantage over being able to concentrait more on aiming and getting a jump start on reversing away from flares.
Also to all the people saying "oh this doesn't really help etc etc" I would say go out with a friend have a bunch of fights with them using combat assist in some of them with out telling you. I don't want to take away from any of the skills that Ritter has gained but when we were testing it out yes there was some advantage over being able to concentrait more on aiming and getting a jump start on reversing away from flares.
I believe some VETS are using a distance plugin, and that is far worse in my eyes than a newb using it. A newb has hardly any chance against a vet. A newb has zero chance against a vet using a distance control plugin and a valk.
I considered requesting disabling lua access to flight control inputs, but I estimated that would break more things than a time delay.
I have detected that some newbs are using bind dodges. I do not like it. I do not consider a dodge bind to have the same impact as the distance issue.
I considered requesting disabling lua access to flight control inputs, but I estimated that would break more things than a time delay.
I have detected that some newbs are using bind dodges. I do not like it. I do not consider a dodge bind to have the same impact as the distance issue.
I like to charge in guns blazing and sort out the mess later so I have no objections to restricting the ability create things like this as they interfere with my in your face ways
Alright, now that yet another night I don't really remember is over, let's sum up the ideal solution before I have to turn away from this thread again.
*Remove LUA export of player ship distance data after 501m.*
-Allows for finding others in the sector accurately enough (i.e., is that person within catch-up distance or should I not bother), but removes all combat-relevant distance from the data stream.
-Does not harm legitimate LUA mods, because it's limited to player ships.
-Better than removing all flight controls from the LUA link, because it only targets the data that allow flight control links to be abused for automating combat. For example, I think we can agree that 'flying your own ship' is significantly less important when the bind at issue is a simple turbo lock. Nobody who has to do long haul trade routes or the Deneb run wants that to go away, and there's no reason it should have to just because some asswipes would rather dream up ways to game the VO control interface rather than play the fucking game.
-Tumble had mentioned something else that has no business being in the LUA sandbox and that, when linked to an effective distance meter, can make the game's AA feature unnaturally effective. Inc., can you pull any data from the LUA stream that relates to the AA pipper indicating engaged/disengaged?
*Remove LUA export of player ship distance data after 501m.*
-Allows for finding others in the sector accurately enough (i.e., is that person within catch-up distance or should I not bother), but removes all combat-relevant distance from the data stream.
-Does not harm legitimate LUA mods, because it's limited to player ships.
-Better than removing all flight controls from the LUA link, because it only targets the data that allow flight control links to be abused for automating combat. For example, I think we can agree that 'flying your own ship' is significantly less important when the bind at issue is a simple turbo lock. Nobody who has to do long haul trade routes or the Deneb run wants that to go away, and there's no reason it should have to just because some asswipes would rather dream up ways to game the VO control interface rather than play the fucking game.
-Tumble had mentioned something else that has no business being in the LUA sandbox and that, when linked to an effective distance meter, can make the game's AA feature unnaturally effective. Inc., can you pull any data from the LUA stream that relates to the AA pipper indicating engaged/disengaged?
Not too mention it's easy on the fingers!
But seriously some of you are posting "The plug-in doesn't help PvP even though I personally haven't tried it.."
Go out, do a case-study, and then come back before you condemn the people criticizing this plug-in.
But seriously some of you are posting "The plug-in doesn't help PvP even though I personally haven't tried it.."
Go out, do a case-study, and then come back before you condemn the people criticizing this plug-in.
If you start nerfing LUA interface, you can continue and never stop.
I have been fighting a perfectly chained four port ship recently. It was a quite hard task because my opponent practically had a beam weapon. For me, it is 100% easier to fight someone with a distance control plugin and before you ask, yes, I did. In this case, I had to dodge that much that I had not the time to aim and fire. My probability of getting into a flight position I can hit from was dramatically lessened. I was brushing off all my fingers while my opponent was only holding the fire key and the plugin did everything for him. Hard minute or two for me. Then, I figured out a style how to deal with it. I got more hits than I would but I won in the end. If I did not I was not going to complain/whine/post anyway.
Next, like Impavid said, it is possible to write a plugin which will fire for you when you get AA green. Well, yellow in VO. You are not going to hit with every shots but it is a similar case. And again, a plugin takes some work off your fingers.
Next, we have dodging plugins and trust me, there is more ways how to take advantage from the API and people will always be finding new ones until you disable it completely.
What you do not expect here is me telling you that I am not going to complain and I am perfectly fine with whatever plugin whoever uses. I, personally, use a lot of plugins but not any "combat" one.
All I wanted to say was that this issue is not the only one and we even have few more important opportunities how to "exploit" combat via LUA plugins. If you want to get rid of all of them, you have to cripple the LUA interface hardly, very hardly. I know, some people would like the API completely removed from the game but is good for VO and the majority of player base?
I stay on the opposite side. Fly and let fly. Let people do what they want. Learn how to deal with them or even how to take an advantage from their plugins. I would not like to see VO going the way of crippling existing LUA interface functionality that much. VO actually relies on plugins a lot. They add functionality missing in the client, they make life of a lot of players easier thus they make it more fun to play the game. You have to break a lot of things to preserve combat. Combat is an important, maybe the main, part of this game but it is not everything. I am not going to ask for breaking a lot of functional and helpful things for other people just because someone bothered me in a fight.
I only wanted to express a bit different and maybe more global seeing of the problem. I hope I managed to constructively stay on topic and no person/player/animal personal feelings were hurt.
Have fun, folks.
I have been fighting a perfectly chained four port ship recently. It was a quite hard task because my opponent practically had a beam weapon. For me, it is 100% easier to fight someone with a distance control plugin and before you ask, yes, I did. In this case, I had to dodge that much that I had not the time to aim and fire. My probability of getting into a flight position I can hit from was dramatically lessened. I was brushing off all my fingers while my opponent was only holding the fire key and the plugin did everything for him. Hard minute or two for me. Then, I figured out a style how to deal with it. I got more hits than I would but I won in the end. If I did not I was not going to complain/whine/post anyway.
Next, like Impavid said, it is possible to write a plugin which will fire for you when you get AA green. Well, yellow in VO. You are not going to hit with every shots but it is a similar case. And again, a plugin takes some work off your fingers.
Next, we have dodging plugins and trust me, there is more ways how to take advantage from the API and people will always be finding new ones until you disable it completely.
What you do not expect here is me telling you that I am not going to complain and I am perfectly fine with whatever plugin whoever uses. I, personally, use a lot of plugins but not any "combat" one.
All I wanted to say was that this issue is not the only one and we even have few more important opportunities how to "exploit" combat via LUA plugins. If you want to get rid of all of them, you have to cripple the LUA interface hardly, very hardly. I know, some people would like the API completely removed from the game but is good for VO and the majority of player base?
I stay on the opposite side. Fly and let fly. Let people do what they want. Learn how to deal with them or even how to take an advantage from their plugins. I would not like to see VO going the way of crippling existing LUA interface functionality that much. VO actually relies on plugins a lot. They add functionality missing in the client, they make life of a lot of players easier thus they make it more fun to play the game. You have to break a lot of things to preserve combat. Combat is an important, maybe the main, part of this game but it is not everything. I am not going to ask for breaking a lot of functional and helpful things for other people just because someone bothered me in a fight.
I only wanted to express a bit different and maybe more global seeing of the problem. I hope I managed to constructively stay on topic and no person/player/animal personal feelings were hurt.
Have fun, folks.