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I have been working on figuring out a way to create a "zero-sum" economy (all credits created must be removed). Most activities are very easily zero-summed and in a few caases do so with no intervention required. I am down to a single item however and I would like some commentary on ways to balance things back out.
Crafting, mining and trading activities have all been considered and Zero-summed. Drops are also easily controlled. This leaves mission payments as the sole remaining activity. The problem is not the size of the actual payment, rather it is the lack of expenses to offset the income.
Please comment freely on any of these methods or even add a few to the list. Acceptability, feasability and "fun factor" of each method are fair subjects for comment.
Sin Taxes:
Fines for killing in a NFZ
Fines for foul language on open channels - 100 credits per word?
Fines for killing Station guards and other "official" NPC's
Fees:
Guild Creation fee
Docking Fee
Station Maintenance/operation Fees
Cappie Maintenance/registration Fees
Nation change Fee
Consumables:
Decay of some stock items like food or flowers
Require daily usage/upkeep of food and water
Random (Rare) Events:
Illness requiring hospital - Health cost
(risk increases if daily consumables not met?)
Destruction of Goods in storage by deliberate attack or robbery/vandalism.
Random hive attacks in areas where heavy losses occur -
Non-Random hive attacks on players in areas where major losses occur.
Insurance Policies for loss of goods in storage and other unfortunate events (piracy?)
Rental of in-game advertising/ bullitin boards
Crafting, mining and trading activities have all been considered and Zero-summed. Drops are also easily controlled. This leaves mission payments as the sole remaining activity. The problem is not the size of the actual payment, rather it is the lack of expenses to offset the income.
Please comment freely on any of these methods or even add a few to the list. Acceptability, feasability and "fun factor" of each method are fair subjects for comment.
Sin Taxes:
Fines for killing in a NFZ
Fines for foul language on open channels - 100 credits per word?
Fines for killing Station guards and other "official" NPC's
Fees:
Guild Creation fee
Docking Fee
Station Maintenance/operation Fees
Cappie Maintenance/registration Fees
Nation change Fee
Consumables:
Decay of some stock items like food or flowers
Require daily usage/upkeep of food and water
Random (Rare) Events:
Illness requiring hospital - Health cost
(risk increases if daily consumables not met?)
Destruction of Goods in storage by deliberate attack or robbery/vandalism.
Random hive attacks in areas where heavy losses occur -
Non-Random hive attacks on players in areas where major losses occur.
Insurance Policies for loss of goods in storage and other unfortunate events (piracy?)
Rental of in-game advertising/ bullitin boards
I'm so very sorry you're confused, but the Sim City forum is over there.
Don't let the doorknob rip yer balloon-knot as you exit with all this valuable work product you've created.
Don't let the doorknob rip yer balloon-knot as you exit with all this valuable work product you've created.
Lecter are you really a arse in real life or only when your tucked behind the saftey of the net? If you have nothing to contribute then perhaps you should find something better to do with your time instead of wasting everyone elses with your bull.
PaKettle: Your self-righteous indignation would be more tolerable if your idea had any merit to begin with. Fines for foul language on public channel? You must be joking.
A zero-sum economic system could be a valuable addition to the game, and is presumably one of the goals of the economic redux. However, you have clearly not put very much thought into the implementation of a zero-sum economy.
A zero-sum economic system could be a valuable addition to the game, and is presumably one of the goals of the economic redux. However, you have clearly not put very much thought into the implementation of a zero-sum economy.
he did contribute he said he didnt like it....
that is what we have a chat filter for douchenozzle
A more objective view then.
First, this is a suggestion and does not belong in this section :p
Sin Taxes:
Fines for killing in a NFZ
Fines for foul language on open channels - 100 credits per word?
Fines for killing Station guards and other "official" NPC's
Fail
Fees:
Guild Creation fee
Docking Fee
Station Maintenance/operation Fees
Cappie Maintenance/registration Fees
Nation change Fee
Fail
Consumables:
Decay of some stock items like food or flowers
Require daily usage/upkeep of food and water
Fail, I'll explain this one for you, I pay to play an Internet spaceship game, not Second life.
I decided the idea was fail at this point, so did not read the rest. I agree there needs to be a money sink though. Oh yeah, and bring bounties back!
First, this is a suggestion and does not belong in this section :p
Sin Taxes:
Fines for killing in a NFZ
Fines for foul language on open channels - 100 credits per word?
Fines for killing Station guards and other "official" NPC's
Fail
Fees:
Guild Creation fee
Docking Fee
Station Maintenance/operation Fees
Cappie Maintenance/registration Fees
Nation change Fee
Fail
Consumables:
Decay of some stock items like food or flowers
Require daily usage/upkeep of food and water
Fail, I'll explain this one for you, I pay to play an Internet spaceship game, not Second life.
I decided the idea was fail at this point, so did not read the rest. I agree there needs to be a money sink though. Oh yeah, and bring bounties back!
No, PaK, I merrily call fools fools here IRL, too. I do it professionally, though I have to use nicer words in court, and of course I do it in every day life, out of force of habit. And on those fairly rare occasions that my big mouth gets me a chance to beat the shit out of someone who mistakes me for a limp wristed city boy in a suit, it just makes life that much more fun.
Out of curiosity, how did you "zero-sum" mining? Mining in any real economy is not a zero-sum game. In fact if it was, it's likely that no one would engage in it - if no value were created by spending your days in a hole in the ground, why would you do it and who would pay you to do it?
Ok, late at night but even so. A money sink in a game where having a lot of money gives no advantage is a waste of effort.
Sorry PAK, the things you have suggested as sins would have zero impact on the richest players in the game, because our main alts just don't do them. The rest, a tiny commercial cost.
Read the newsposts, the devs are moving towards the control of resources, much underlying work has been done. When that happens large expenditure for real economic advantage will become a reality. Until then one's credits are just a meaningless number.
Sorry PAK, the things you have suggested as sins would have zero impact on the richest players in the game, because our main alts just don't do them. The rest, a tiny commercial cost.
Read the newsposts, the devs are moving towards the control of resources, much underlying work has been done. When that happens large expenditure for real economic advantage will become a reality. Until then one's credits are just a meaningless number.
actually being able to repeadetly die and hence by more ships more times then your enemy is an advantage
Actually mining is very easily zero-summed when you consider its overall effect on the economy. Ore's are converted to manufactured goods which can then be further refined or sold to a player untill eventually destroyed. Credits obtained from mining are recovered when the goods are destroyed. It does require that all goods be accounted for and limited in quantity but that is a relatively simple matter.
Yes this is a spaceship game. Please note under the description the letters RPG and MMORG. They mean there is a persistant economy which needs to be reasonably well balanced or there will be no game at all. One only needs to read through all the posts whining over various activities that create too much "easy" money to figure out there is a need to deal with the subject.Put a different way there is more to VO then just PVP and the economy affects gameplay far more then some of you realise.
Sin taxes by nature do tend to be small annoyances but when spread over a large number of players they can add up to a fairly sizeable amount. They also tend to discourage various behaviours as a side benefit. They usually are also easily avoided. In this case I do see the point that they may spoil the fun for some players but they also protect the fun for the playerbase and cut down complaints to the game staff of various abuses. The NFZ tax for instance works well for corvus areas as they would be easily bribed to forget such incidences. Such a tax could easily be adjusted on a per station basis as well so that an NFZ violation in Dau could be very costly while the same violation at corvus would be only minimal.
Yoda I am surprised you failed a fee to become unaligned....Any reason why besides the fact that it might cost you credits?
DaveJohn I do keep up with the devs activities as much as they allow and they will be busy on other matters for several months. With roid seeding, bug fixes and Cappies I doubt we will see any changes to the overall economy for at least a year. I also am not convinced that cappies will create a large enough drain on the economy. If they are in fact expensive then I dont see them being destroyed very often and certainly not on the scale that the smaller ships are. I suspect the same will hold true for player owned stations. The point of a zero sum approach is not to prevent billionaires but rather to keep most of the players at a reasonable level. There actually is a point behind this thread and I actually would like to hear any point of view that actually goes beyond merely saying something fails - why matters a lot.
Yes this is a spaceship game. Please note under the description the letters RPG and MMORG. They mean there is a persistant economy which needs to be reasonably well balanced or there will be no game at all. One only needs to read through all the posts whining over various activities that create too much "easy" money to figure out there is a need to deal with the subject.Put a different way there is more to VO then just PVP and the economy affects gameplay far more then some of you realise.
Sin taxes by nature do tend to be small annoyances but when spread over a large number of players they can add up to a fairly sizeable amount. They also tend to discourage various behaviours as a side benefit. They usually are also easily avoided. In this case I do see the point that they may spoil the fun for some players but they also protect the fun for the playerbase and cut down complaints to the game staff of various abuses. The NFZ tax for instance works well for corvus areas as they would be easily bribed to forget such incidences. Such a tax could easily be adjusted on a per station basis as well so that an NFZ violation in Dau could be very costly while the same violation at corvus would be only minimal.
Yoda I am surprised you failed a fee to become unaligned....Any reason why besides the fact that it might cost you credits?
DaveJohn I do keep up with the devs activities as much as they allow and they will be busy on other matters for several months. With roid seeding, bug fixes and Cappies I doubt we will see any changes to the overall economy for at least a year. I also am not convinced that cappies will create a large enough drain on the economy. If they are in fact expensive then I dont see them being destroyed very often and certainly not on the scale that the smaller ships are. I suspect the same will hold true for player owned stations. The point of a zero sum approach is not to prevent billionaires but rather to keep most of the players at a reasonable level. There actually is a point behind this thread and I actually would like to hear any point of view that actually goes beyond merely saying something fails - why matters a lot.
PaK; while I don't necessarily agree with paying to become unaligned, paying to become ^aligned^, or faction change as you said, would make more sense.
Also, I have to agree with davejohn. At this point, it doesn't really matter who has the most credits. If you have a couple million, you're pretty much set for a while. And the players who have the most money generally aren't out there spending money on ammo/repairs/new ships as often as those who fight more, so the money just sits there. The miner with a million and the miner with a billion (assuming equal levels, factions, etc) are practically equal. As of yet, there's just nothing to spend that much money on.
Also, I have to agree with davejohn. At this point, it doesn't really matter who has the most credits. If you have a couple million, you're pretty much set for a while. And the players who have the most money generally aren't out there spending money on ammo/repairs/new ships as often as those who fight more, so the money just sits there. The miner with a million and the miner with a billion (assuming equal levels, factions, etc) are practically equal. As of yet, there's just nothing to spend that much money on.
I dunno, I kind of like PAK's ideas. Any kind of money sink is a motivator to get money, purchase the new shiny thing, and move on to the next thing.
Grayspace monsterz purchase candies cause thats what monies for?
Grayspace monsterz purchase candies cause thats what monies for?
Yeah, I pass. kthxbai
At this point it there is no real difference between an million and a billion in VO. Very true - This is about how to get to a point where there is a difference and stay there. As long as the game keeps handing out credits and those credits never really leave, the economy will remain borked forever.
The fee would be to alter alignment... unaligned is only one possibility. In this case perhaps a mission based method like the mission to regain standing that corvus currently offers.
The fee would be to alter alignment... unaligned is only one possibility. In this case perhaps a mission based method like the mission to regain standing that corvus currently offers.
Actually, here's a short-term fix; make anything that gives you money less (by a factor of whatever the devs see fit, across the board), or just make everything cost more, again by a factor of something.
Back to the suggestion, I agree, we need something to put money into. The big issue is that ships don't cost enough to be considered an investment. It's more like pocket change. Which actually goes back up to the first point; ships cost more, or money is harder to get. I could definitely see NFZ fines, and maybe for killing station guards.
As for the rare events, I think that would be just a random punishment thing. You'd lose money for no reason whatsoever. If we're going to take money, you should have to have done (or not done) something to cause it.
On to consumables; this could be implemented in player/guild owned stations, for sure. Don't get enough of a supply, the prices go up, eventually the station shuts down (or something?)
And while you could add fuel onto this, we already pay for ship repairs and ammo, I think fuel would be too much of a hassle. Anyways, it's not like we make voyages the length you would in EVE; those can take an hour or more to do, you can make it across VO in ~15 minutes.
Capship maintenance costs would be a delicate thing, as it would have to cost enough to make a dent, but not enough that in a month or two, you could've bought another cappie. It'll entirely depend on how much capships go for when released.
Back to the suggestion, I agree, we need something to put money into. The big issue is that ships don't cost enough to be considered an investment. It's more like pocket change. Which actually goes back up to the first point; ships cost more, or money is harder to get. I could definitely see NFZ fines, and maybe for killing station guards.
As for the rare events, I think that would be just a random punishment thing. You'd lose money for no reason whatsoever. If we're going to take money, you should have to have done (or not done) something to cause it.
On to consumables; this could be implemented in player/guild owned stations, for sure. Don't get enough of a supply, the prices go up, eventually the station shuts down (or something?)
And while you could add fuel onto this, we already pay for ship repairs and ammo, I think fuel would be too much of a hassle. Anyways, it's not like we make voyages the length you would in EVE; those can take an hour or more to do, you can make it across VO in ~15 minutes.
Capship maintenance costs would be a delicate thing, as it would have to cost enough to make a dent, but not enough that in a month or two, you could've bought another cappie. It'll entirely depend on how much capships go for when released.
As far as "Sin Taxes" are concerned, a "foul language" tax, or anything like, hasn't worked in any game where freely typed chat existed - especially if there is an already implemented swear filter. And if you get a "sin tax" (horrible name, lets just call it a Fine), then you'll only be charged that fee if you get caught by the faction or gave it to you (or a faction who prescribes to that factions laws, etc. like TPG in UIT space). And there has to be a way to "not pay" the fee, i.e. run.
As mentioned prior, a nation change tax makes no sense at all but a "bribe" to go from unaligned to a specific faction might make more sense. Nation changes should be demonstrated by the actions a player does, i.e. "Well you've killed a lot of bots for us, so maybe you can work for us now." I think "nation change" should also be changed to "allied nation change" because you can't change you nationality can you?
I'm not very fond of the "consume foods to live" idea either. I don't think that fits into the game very well... but if you're going to make players consume food, then why not make it mandatory to expel our waste? Just doesn't work for anything but a "real life" simulator.
Aside from that, I think the economy should largely be a player-run economy, which I guess a zero-sum economy refers to, in that all players contribute by mining, which would then be sold to stations so they can produce items, which can be purchased by players and sold to other players or stations, which end up making more items, etc. etc. etc. A short term fix however, won't do much good. We need to get more players, reset credits (or cap them), implement a new economic system and then go from there.
As mentioned prior, a nation change tax makes no sense at all but a "bribe" to go from unaligned to a specific faction might make more sense. Nation changes should be demonstrated by the actions a player does, i.e. "Well you've killed a lot of bots for us, so maybe you can work for us now." I think "nation change" should also be changed to "allied nation change" because you can't change you nationality can you?
I'm not very fond of the "consume foods to live" idea either. I don't think that fits into the game very well... but if you're going to make players consume food, then why not make it mandatory to expel our waste? Just doesn't work for anything but a "real life" simulator.
Aside from that, I think the economy should largely be a player-run economy, which I guess a zero-sum economy refers to, in that all players contribute by mining, which would then be sold to stations so they can produce items, which can be purchased by players and sold to other players or stations, which end up making more items, etc. etc. etc. A short term fix however, won't do much good. We need to get more players, reset credits (or cap them), implement a new economic system and then go from there.
Fix the handouts (escort systems), make it so the cargo carried by convoy Atlases, Taurs, and Moth Heavies is capped at 1500cr/cu, make it so the cargo carried by convoy Tridents and Connies is a minimal of 1000cr/cu, alert people that credits will be reset, everyone with more than 100,000cr will have their balances set to 100,000cr, clear out the guild banks, clear station storages of anything that's worth anything including what is equipped (things costing 0cr will be spared - such as hive posis or lenbs).
Fixed.
Fixed.
lets call it a fee
L-O-L jesus christ let your political affiliations get involved in internet spaceships much?
L-O-L jesus christ let your political affiliations get involved in internet spaceships much?