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He left Verasi, Azek, and Metatna vunerable for a reason, and I agree with it, see > http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/7/22369?page=3#277458
Bring the bounty system back, hell, I can get more money than I used to get out of bounties with escort missions(bounties were way more fun). Also, Turrets do not belong in grey space, take them out of entry worm holes. You yourself John said that you want grey to be more unsafe, remove all turrets from greyspace! There really is no need nor no RP reason to have Latos H-2 full of turrets. Nor any other *grey* side of a wormhole.
Bring the spirit Waylon had back, make some places even inside nation space dangerous, you really do listen too much to too many newbs! (they last months, we have lasted years, wake up)
Bring the bounty system back, hell, I can get more money than I used to get out of bounties with escort missions(bounties were way more fun). Also, Turrets do not belong in grey space, take them out of entry worm holes. You yourself John said that you want grey to be more unsafe, remove all turrets from greyspace! There really is no need nor no RP reason to have Latos H-2 full of turrets. Nor any other *grey* side of a wormhole.
Bring the spirit Waylon had back, make some places even inside nation space dangerous, you really do listen too much to too many newbs! (they last months, we have lasted years, wake up)
Way back when, I went over the RP and gameplay reasons for "weak points" on the interior of UIT and Itani nationspace for weeks on end and in innumerable long, well-argued posts. Inc. claimed that these things were an oversight and something that had somehow escaped his attention (for several years...).
Inc. read, ignored, and went to what we have now.
As for the turrets, apparently they're needed because the ones inside the WH are less effective. I'm not sure how that's true, since I can easily dodge everything on the "I'm flying into the WH" side, but will sometimes get boomed while warping in. But again, I think the debate has already happened on this one, too.
I think it's safe to say that this one is OVAH, Yodar.
Finally, from a purely economic perspective, I'm not surprised that the interests of fickle noobs are the Devs' focus. We're somehow still paying for this ... game ... despite all that we find wrong with it after many years. It's safe for them to ignore our complaints and carry on, secure as they quite rationally are in the belief that we're not going to put our money where our mouth is.
Inc. read, ignored, and went to what we have now.
As for the turrets, apparently they're needed because the ones inside the WH are less effective. I'm not sure how that's true, since I can easily dodge everything on the "I'm flying into the WH" side, but will sometimes get boomed while warping in. But again, I think the debate has already happened on this one, too.
I think it's safe to say that this one is OVAH, Yodar.
Finally, from a purely economic perspective, I'm not surprised that the interests of fickle noobs are the Devs' focus. We're somehow still paying for this ... game ... despite all that we find wrong with it after many years. It's safe for them to ignore our complaints and carry on, secure as they quite rationally are in the belief that we're not going to put our money where our mouth is.
Yeah, Lecter, this isn't my first thread or discussion on this topic, infact I thought the turrets were a good idea at first, but then they went and spammed them everywhere.
But yeah, they have to realise we are right one day.
But yeah, they have to realise we are right one day.
You guys realize if the turrets on the grey side of the wormholes get killed, we'll end up with beam-weapons-of-death guarding the capital wormholes? Just saying, be careful what you wish for.
Though I agree that more greyspace choke-points would be a blessing.
Though I agree that more greyspace choke-points would be a blessing.
I have to agree. Putting the turrets on the Grey side of the wh's pretty much destroyed Grey IMO.
Worse, for a clever player, they aren't even a threat. Esp when you can kill a POS player right in their midst in Grey and not take a point of loss. Never mind even a semi skilled pilot such as myself can easily get past them 9 out of 10 times or better.
All part of my argument against forcing the game.
To be fair though, when my other account (char) was alive, they made UIT a beautiful place to make illicit gains.
Worse, for a clever player, they aren't even a threat. Esp when you can kill a POS player right in their midst in Grey and not take a point of loss. Never mind even a semi skilled pilot such as myself can easily get past them 9 out of 10 times or better.
All part of my argument against forcing the game.
To be fair though, when my other account (char) was alive, they made UIT a beautiful place to make illicit gains.
Atice that is not necessary. Without a cap ship to ride into dau, I get killed by the inside turrets 75% of the time, and the other 25% I never escape crippling damage.
I remember back when the UIT and Itani stations were removed from Edras because they were nation stations inside grey space. Unfortunately the turrets have a much greater impact on those sectors than the stations ever did.
All these things happened, as they always happen, because a small minority of players whined long and loud, and whenever that happens, Inc switches gears to "fix" a problem that doesn't exist.
I remember back when the UIT and Itani stations were removed from Edras because they were nation stations inside grey space. Unfortunately the turrets have a much greater impact on those sectors than the stations ever did.
All these things happened, as they always happen, because a small minority of players whined long and loud, and whenever that happens, Inc switches gears to "fix" a problem that doesn't exist.
Atice that is not necessary. Without a cap ship to ride into dau, I get killed by the inside turrets 75% of the time, and the other 25% I never escape crippling damage.
It was more of an ironic comment than anything else. Though the whole "I'm gonna be smuggled aboard a cappy into Dau" thing should get a fix. Maybe be able to bribe a cappy for safe passage? And now I've digressed...
It was more of an ironic comment than anything else. Though the whole "I'm gonna be smuggled aboard a cappy into Dau" thing should get a fix. Maybe be able to bribe a cappy for safe passage? And now I've digressed...
I'd like to see the turrets restricted to guarding only capital systems and guard the rest of nation space with patrols.
Since I wasn't around during the npc pirate days, I'm shooting blind here, but it seems to me that a bit of work could get a supped up patrol similar but not quite like the SF patrolling all of nation spaces- with the ability to engage in sub faction sectors of UIT space. I would even give them the ability to persue one jump into Grey just for shits and giggles. Have them respond to any violence, whether pvp or pve(non hive).
Since I wasn't around during the npc pirate days, I'm shooting blind here, but it seems to me that a bit of work could get a supped up patrol similar but not quite like the SF patrolling all of nation spaces- with the ability to engage in sub faction sectors of UIT space. I would even give them the ability to persue one jump into Grey just for shits and giggles. Have them respond to any violence, whether pvp or pve(non hive).
Strike forces already pursue a jump or two into gray on occasion. I generally have to either make several jumps through empty sectors or one into a station sector to loose them. I don't think that is their intended behavior, but it is what happens.
Must be a new bug. Immediately after jumping into Grey, they would return to nation space when I was being chased. Weird.
Aye, turrets guarding capitals and dynamic fighter ship patrols (or maybe a cap ship blockade around the more vital systems) everywhere else are the way to go, I think. But I would take out the aerna seekers and replace them with supped up centurions that are just as fast but are interceptor fighters. Especially if the patrols would be made dynamic, it should be much harder to evade a fight but not complete and total suicide no matter the numbers on your side if you turn around. By all means, though, keep the aernas in station SF arsenal, it makes sense for them to be restricted to single sectors as they are technically just smart missiles.
Edit: my idea would be to have capital ships on the borders of capital systems: you can slip by them easily, but you wouldn't be able to camp in the same sector as them.
Then turrets in the capital stations possibly even more buff than the current ones, and of course remove all valuable profits, widgets, or ships from these stations other than the newbie grade ships, missions, and trade profits: the idea is that these would basically become the havens for newbies until they can buy a Vulture MK2 or a hog or an atlas or something (like a tier up from the newbie stations).
And finally supped up fighter patrols everywhere else that are actually killable after a few waves after the pirate[s] is[are] spotted, but they would make it nearly impossible to take out traders and the like while they're up and chasing you (unlike the current slow-ass SF): these would be in places like Metana and Verasi and the like.
The general idea is that all these defenses except for the turrets can be destroyed and have that sector be blockaded by the destroyers. Only the capital ship blockade areas would pretty much take all the online pirates (or nationalist combat pilots) to take out. I think it would add a lot to immersion. Here are a few scenarios:
---
Group 1: 3 pirates... These guys want to set up something along the lines of a Verasi blockade.
Step 1) They enter Edras B-11... A single patrol wave comes out of the wormhole and attacks them. There are no other targets so the wave of vultures, warthogs, and supped up centurion interceptors are taken out with a quick furball. Perhaps 10% damage is taken by the pirate group. If they want they could stop here and no other wave would come out of the wormhole until after around 30 minutes, but still they could dispatch that single wave and no other one would come out until another 30 minutes. But the pirates want to get in nation space, so they move on.
2) They move through the station on the other side much faster as all they need to do is turn tale and run for 2000m from the usual aerna seeker/vulture SF. Same rules apply as today's station SF; no possibility of blockading here whatsoever as it is a continuous wave of little shits that blow up and instant kill you. It is intended that they stay out of here other than passing through.
3) They are now in Verasi C-2: where they want to set up...
possibility a) there is no dynamic patrol in the sector yet, after aprox. 30 seconds one comes, however, and the waves begin; there are 3 waves this time in 1 minute succession of each other, after they are done they don't continue until another 15 minutes...
b) a patrol is already in the sector, the waves begin as described above...
4) While in the middle of the say... 2nd wave, a player trader comes through. In classic trader fashion he doesn't respond to any hails and the pirates want to kill him.
a) While still in the middle of the wave, the pirates decide to attack the trader around 1000m away. However, unlike how they could easily ignore old SF, the supped up Centurion interceptors start chewing their asses off whilst still in the middle of turbo. This is not a smart option, even if they succeeded in destroying the trader, the time they lost doing so allows the 3rd wave to spawn on top of the one they were fighting (which is still unscathed) and now they fight a double wave. Good luck with the gat/flare spam from 10 simultaneous WTDs, boys.
b) They are forced to let the trader go for now, they will be able to get at him, however, when the waves are on cooldown. After killing the 3 patrol waves in 3 minutes they now have the sector to themselves for 15 minutes of which it is up to VPRs to deal with them. Note: turning around and fighting the supped up centurions would pretty much be the equivalent in difficulty and time consumption as taking on a convoy guard vulture.
---
Edit: my idea would be to have capital ships on the borders of capital systems: you can slip by them easily, but you wouldn't be able to camp in the same sector as them.
Then turrets in the capital stations possibly even more buff than the current ones, and of course remove all valuable profits, widgets, or ships from these stations other than the newbie grade ships, missions, and trade profits: the idea is that these would basically become the havens for newbies until they can buy a Vulture MK2 or a hog or an atlas or something (like a tier up from the newbie stations).
And finally supped up fighter patrols everywhere else that are actually killable after a few waves after the pirate[s] is[are] spotted, but they would make it nearly impossible to take out traders and the like while they're up and chasing you (unlike the current slow-ass SF): these would be in places like Metana and Verasi and the like.
The general idea is that all these defenses except for the turrets can be destroyed and have that sector be blockaded by the destroyers. Only the capital ship blockade areas would pretty much take all the online pirates (or nationalist combat pilots) to take out. I think it would add a lot to immersion. Here are a few scenarios:
---
Group 1: 3 pirates... These guys want to set up something along the lines of a Verasi blockade.
Step 1) They enter Edras B-11... A single patrol wave comes out of the wormhole and attacks them. There are no other targets so the wave of vultures, warthogs, and supped up centurion interceptors are taken out with a quick furball. Perhaps 10% damage is taken by the pirate group. If they want they could stop here and no other wave would come out of the wormhole until after around 30 minutes, but still they could dispatch that single wave and no other one would come out until another 30 minutes. But the pirates want to get in nation space, so they move on.
2) They move through the station on the other side much faster as all they need to do is turn tale and run for 2000m from the usual aerna seeker/vulture SF. Same rules apply as today's station SF; no possibility of blockading here whatsoever as it is a continuous wave of little shits that blow up and instant kill you. It is intended that they stay out of here other than passing through.
3) They are now in Verasi C-2: where they want to set up...
possibility a) there is no dynamic patrol in the sector yet, after aprox. 30 seconds one comes, however, and the waves begin; there are 3 waves this time in 1 minute succession of each other, after they are done they don't continue until another 15 minutes...
b) a patrol is already in the sector, the waves begin as described above...
4) While in the middle of the say... 2nd wave, a player trader comes through. In classic trader fashion he doesn't respond to any hails and the pirates want to kill him.
a) While still in the middle of the wave, the pirates decide to attack the trader around 1000m away. However, unlike how they could easily ignore old SF, the supped up Centurion interceptors start chewing their asses off whilst still in the middle of turbo. This is not a smart option, even if they succeeded in destroying the trader, the time they lost doing so allows the 3rd wave to spawn on top of the one they were fighting (which is still unscathed) and now they fight a double wave. Good luck with the gat/flare spam from 10 simultaneous WTDs, boys.
b) They are forced to let the trader go for now, they will be able to get at him, however, when the waves are on cooldown. After killing the 3 patrol waves in 3 minutes they now have the sector to themselves for 15 minutes of which it is up to VPRs to deal with them. Note: turning around and fighting the supped up centurions would pretty much be the equivalent in difficulty and time consumption as taking on a convoy guard vulture.
---
supped up centurions that are just as fast but are interceptor fighters.
Um, ranged weapon fighters with the speed of seekers would be a retarded buff. May as well add instakill beams.
have capital ships on the borders of capital systems: you can slip by them easily, but you wouldn't be able to camp in the same sector as them.
That's exactly the situation with turrets in Grey now. Do you mean inside the WH?
Um, ranged weapon fighters with the speed of seekers would be a retarded buff. May as well add instakill beams.
have capital ships on the borders of capital systems: you can slip by them easily, but you wouldn't be able to camp in the same sector as them.
That's exactly the situation with turrets in Grey now. Do you mean inside the WH?
Whoops, sorry, got consumed in making a long edit to my post while you replied. The point of the supped up centurions is that you wouldn't be able to run from them or completely ignore them like the current strike force vultures, but getting rid of instant kill bombs that hover around you and explode if you ever think about turning around and actually engaging the strike force would allow the possibility of actually fighting a wave of patrols.
Ah, yeah, that makes more sense. Though seekers are actually quite killable with energy so long as you're facing them as they approach, rather than trying to turn once they've arrived.
The main problem is that SF after SF after SF spawns all but automagically, so there's no point to actually fighting them.
The main problem is that SF after SF after SF spawns all but automagically, so there's no point to actually fighting them.
Aye, read the scenario I imagine of the idea in the post before last... I find it much more reasonable and immersive to escape SF by killing them rather than by jumping in circles in empty sectors. Keep in mind that the same principles of killing capital ship blockades and only having them respawn every 30 minutes would be applied for the larger raids that go for capital borders and such.
I'm with yoda on bringing back the bounties. We need combat oriented ways to earn credits equivalent to the escort payout.
But, but, but... people might farm! It would be like getting hundreds of thousands of credits in exchange for doing no real work!!
Oh. Wait. Carry on.
Oh. Wait. Carry on.
I completely missed out on this thread. But, maybe that's not such a bad thing, as I had a lot less patience last week.
Anyway, I uhh.. don't know where to start on Yoda's first post. For one, I designed the damned galaxy, not Waylon. He implemented it according to my specifications, and made the map look prettier. I also had all sorts of ideas of "no-mans land" and dangerous territory stuff. But the process of making this game, and the experience and decisions that come from it, have been highly evolutionary. Just because I made a choice in 2002 doesn't mean it's still a super great idea (god knows, based on the.. many issues from which our game still suffers).
Secondly, I utterly fail to grasp the obsession with whether the turrets are in grayspace or not. WHO CARES?@!# It's like six freakin' sectors out of over two thousand. What is it about that that makes people so upset? There's seemingly the whole argument of "there shouldn't be Nation stuff in Gray!, it's the Principle of the thing!", but Helios B7 has been a Serco station since alpha, so that doesn't really wash. I honestly don't care very much whether we have turrets inside or outside of a border. For those who were paying attention, we did a first-gen turret test over in Verasi, and players actually told me we should stick the turrets outside.. because otherwise jumping in was too easy (various changes have happened since then, people are more attuned to them now, whatever). There's probably some forum traffic on this too, for those who want to look it up. I have no particular religious fixation on which side of a wormhole a given set of turrets appears, all I care about is the intended goal of making nation space a little more challenging to enter and exit by those who are "undesired" there. I would like the defenses of nation space to be both smarter and more interesting ("patrols" that you can hide from and the like), but I just haven't had the development resources to bring to bear on that yet. As I've posted in other threads, I'm looking forward to patrols that do things like scan cargos and addons, and can be fooled (somewhat) with various spoofing scanner-blockers, and react badly to contraband addons and cargoes (and also patrol in manners that are.. not stupid, until the current SF stuff). Anyone who played through my delivery mission in the Centurion Superlight tree will probably remember the Constellation patrol scene. Anyway.. we just aren't there yet, but at least we've added scanners.
Lastly, I am not completely ignoring our vets for the sake of newbies, or visa versa. Lecter writes:
We're somehow still paying for this ... game ... despite all that we find wrong with it after many years. It's safe for them to ignore our complaints and carry on, secure as they quite rationally are in the belief that we're not going to put our money where our mouth is.
Here's how it breaks down in reality:
The income from our supportive vets is X, the income from our transient newbies is Y.
X + Y = Z
Z is the number required to keep the company running.
Z - Y = out-of-business.
So, yes, we do make an effort to try and keep newbies around more. We assume that you would like us to continue being in business, so we can (most of the time) work on stuff for you guys. I will not, ever, do everything that our vets want. I will always disagree on something, or make a decision for implementation, personnel-availability or future-design-intention reasons. Or sometimes I'll just screw something up. But most of the time we spend is on stuff for our vets.
Anyway, I uhh.. don't know where to start on Yoda's first post. For one, I designed the damned galaxy, not Waylon. He implemented it according to my specifications, and made the map look prettier. I also had all sorts of ideas of "no-mans land" and dangerous territory stuff. But the process of making this game, and the experience and decisions that come from it, have been highly evolutionary. Just because I made a choice in 2002 doesn't mean it's still a super great idea (god knows, based on the.. many issues from which our game still suffers).
Secondly, I utterly fail to grasp the obsession with whether the turrets are in grayspace or not. WHO CARES?@!# It's like six freakin' sectors out of over two thousand. What is it about that that makes people so upset? There's seemingly the whole argument of "there shouldn't be Nation stuff in Gray!, it's the Principle of the thing!", but Helios B7 has been a Serco station since alpha, so that doesn't really wash. I honestly don't care very much whether we have turrets inside or outside of a border. For those who were paying attention, we did a first-gen turret test over in Verasi, and players actually told me we should stick the turrets outside.. because otherwise jumping in was too easy (various changes have happened since then, people are more attuned to them now, whatever). There's probably some forum traffic on this too, for those who want to look it up. I have no particular religious fixation on which side of a wormhole a given set of turrets appears, all I care about is the intended goal of making nation space a little more challenging to enter and exit by those who are "undesired" there. I would like the defenses of nation space to be both smarter and more interesting ("patrols" that you can hide from and the like), but I just haven't had the development resources to bring to bear on that yet. As I've posted in other threads, I'm looking forward to patrols that do things like scan cargos and addons, and can be fooled (somewhat) with various spoofing scanner-blockers, and react badly to contraband addons and cargoes (and also patrol in manners that are.. not stupid, until the current SF stuff). Anyone who played through my delivery mission in the Centurion Superlight tree will probably remember the Constellation patrol scene. Anyway.. we just aren't there yet, but at least we've added scanners.
Lastly, I am not completely ignoring our vets for the sake of newbies, or visa versa. Lecter writes:
We're somehow still paying for this ... game ... despite all that we find wrong with it after many years. It's safe for them to ignore our complaints and carry on, secure as they quite rationally are in the belief that we're not going to put our money where our mouth is.
Here's how it breaks down in reality:
The income from our supportive vets is X, the income from our transient newbies is Y.
X + Y = Z
Z is the number required to keep the company running.
Z - Y = out-of-business.
So, yes, we do make an effort to try and keep newbies around more. We assume that you would like us to continue being in business, so we can (most of the time) work on stuff for you guys. I will not, ever, do everything that our vets want. I will always disagree on something, or make a decision for implementation, personnel-availability or future-design-intention reasons. Or sometimes I'll just screw something up. But most of the time we spend is on stuff for our vets.
I'm so glad you cleared up the Waylon thing, because I certainly couldn't recall how he fit into all this.
Hey, remember all those threads from users about retaining noobs so that the game would grow? That was like...a few months ago.
Hey, remember all those threads from users about retaining noobs so that the game would grow? That was like...a few months ago.
Secondly, I utterly fail to grasp the obsession with whether the turrets are in grayspace or not. WHO CARES?@!# It's like six freakin' sectors out of over two thousand.
Fine, put the turrets in one of the empty two thousand instead of the few out there that people actually use. H2 Latos and Edras B11 are choke point possible encounter sectors that will increase player interaction beyond the "I want to fight I'll go to B8" kind.
Fine, put the turrets in one of the empty two thousand instead of the few out there that people actually use. H2 Latos and Edras B11 are choke point possible encounter sectors that will increase player interaction beyond the "I want to fight I'll go to B8" kind.